The debate "A loving God wouldn't allow child rape and death from unclean water" was started by
April 13, 2016, 6:42 pm.
8 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 10 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
blanco posted 6 arguments, danielle posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
Alex posted 3 arguments to the disagreers part.
Jason9374, danielle, Pugsly, blanco, Dev and 3 visitors agree.
Alex, genome, wildcat79, itsme, codyray16 and 5 visitors disagree.
My apps been bugging, so I'll condense my argument into a shorter thing, details will be provided as discussions move on. Tolerance is learned, and the ability to not destroy yourself on the road to comfort. Humans are developed for progress, and familiarity. We are fascinated by the new if we can understand/associate, and the difficult to understand can be painful, frustrating. Disagreement would be measured on pain, for those that are unaccustomed to smaller struggles, because there isn't much to feel pain on. The measurement of pain is based on the sense that something is wrong, physically and sometimes even mentally. Disagreement wouldn't be painful if it wasn't mere dissent, but disliking is a larger factor, and honestly, we find reasons to dislike each other everyday. Then, people that do not struggle dislike when the things that always worked or is how they knew one day isn't that way. I believe it was once said "Every man is fighting a hard battle", yet some are harder than others. I don't mean to push politics, but did you ever see the video with a black cop being lectured by university students on racism? The measure of comfort becomes a margin on what is different, and if the weather doesn't hurt us, and people can (which is observed in the extremely sensitive, because of the lack of experience) then our scale for progress, for pain, moves. It becomes smaller, specific, until disagreement is intolerable. On a smaller scale, it is observable today. I don't want to be too simple and say only the spoiled can be this way, as I do also believe that being wronged can also make this happen, but as two separate pieces of educating a person. People have died on opinion alone, and seeing as how human nature as a society wouldn't like learning, or even being a society, what need would there be for either in a perfect world? No need, no development, the scale for pain is slim. And in perfection, we chose where it goes. In pain, we have better judgement on that, and a better understanding of measurement. Babies don't which was the use of my previous statement. I hope this isn't to disconnected, it's a large subject with specific, spread out issues. Nothing personal, but observations on everyone.
No, Evolution is a process of perfecting creation and adapting to different environments. Natural calamities is a process of life to learn from and test our strength. It's so simple, nothing is created perfect, it's all a process of a grand plan to see who is worthy divinity and internal blessings.
The moment time exist was the beginning of the process, and the moment time cease to exist is the moment this process ceases.
The more I think about it the more your line if argument is self defeating.
You believe that God created humans. That means our nature is not due to evolution but to his design. This means that God created a species so fundamentally flawed that it would turn on itself and destroy itself if not experiencing suffering. He then claims to be a loving God for torturing us in the name of testing our faith, since this keeps us from destroying ourselves. That does not portray God as a loving and benevolent being. It portrays him as a sociopath setting up the universe's largest Saw puzzle in the claims that it will help fix what he created broken.
How are you judging that people would kill each other over which colour is better? If it isn't based on your personal experience I will apologize, but if you wouldn't kill people over minor disagreements, why do you believe everyone else would?
"has no influence on their capabilities."
This is false, the reason for a teacher is to improve their capabilities, to influence them.
It isn't just me, and obviously I don't act on these thoughts, so I am good. Truely evil people are the ones that believe they are good. They do not recognize that their potential for evil is there, or that pieces of it left along the way of this path. I didn't try to prove that God was good, simply that our evil is ours and ours alone. Even without the belief in God, this concept would hold. I don't just claim it is me, I say it is you, proud American, historybuff, everyone! Broken down to the smallest bits, we learn our tolerance from the unchanging matters of pain. It's funny how since you can't refute my argument you attack my character. Oh, and slippery slope says that a leads to b leads to c, so I must say that when you parrot phrases about logical mistakes and of evil, you have never broken down evil to its components. Does it even exist? Perhaps not, but it must at least be viewed as a function, a label for an existing society. Based on words alone, you have decided my analysis is unfit for society, therefore I. What does that say when a single person is a judge, in comparison to the decision that people are not to judge?
Then, we must say, if good is not in the power or by a definite standard, it is a means to an end. You would be no different from me, but choosing the moral high ground is a very unwise move.
exactly! you got it
That's a very flawed analogy since the teacher didn't make the children and has no influence on their capabilities. The same can not be said of God. God is writing the test for children he created whose capabilities he determined under conditions he set.
God knows multiple out comes from multiple dimensional times, its up to us which direction of future we're going to choose, or which road are going to take.
Teacher knows the answer to the test, he gives the students the test that has multiple answers to choose from, but only one answer is right.
So if God is omniscient and omnipotent, he knew everything that would ever happen before he created the universe. That can be likened to a programmer writing a piece of software. Both cases they are creating something that they themselves are outside if. In both cases they know every variable and how it will behave at all times (assuming the programmer knows what they are doing). By your logic it isn't the fault of those who write computer viruses. They are merely testing how resilient your computer is when they knowingly exploit a weakness to kill it.
It isn't a test if God knows the outcome before it starts. If God made the universe knowing that Hitler and Stalin would kill so many innocent people, he either isn't a kind and loving God or is not omnipotent and omniscient. Knowingly creating the universe knowing that would happen is neither kind nor loving.
You realize what a terrible person that belief makes you sound like, right? The only reason you don't murder everyone who disagrees with you about your favourite colour is because you have bigger things to worry about. Your justification for the necessity of a loving God is to prevent you from acting like a sociopath. That doesn't prove God is good, it proves that you are not.
He wouldn't be in the world, he's a God! he's greater then the universe.
The creator gave us natural process, everything is predestined except our own choices in life. People are not punished because of someone else's sin, children are not giving cancer to be punished, for a child is born without sin, rather God test the people with his creation (the child) , and if the child dies then God have shown him mercy from this world and brought him/her back to paradise. The true purpose of humans and demons is to worship, and God will test our patients and gratitude towards him.
a baby doesn't scream cos its in pain??
also why do people insist on making excuses for gods evilness.
if you are all loving and all powerful, YOU DONT LET PEOPLE SUFFER THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN
I mean, how can you let a child get cancer as a punishment for the rest of humanity!! that child is completely innocent!
this is why I don't believe in God, but if there is a God I will never show it any respect, he does not deserve it. In fact if it is real he is probably the most evil being in the world.
A baby screams because it is the most pain it has ever felt, it may seem like a slippery slope, but actually we had to climb our entire lives, and without the need to move from the bottom we would stay there. By convincing ourselves things are outside of our control, we force ourselves to accept, and the standards become better. Why would anyone care to work together to accomplish the obscure when it poses no threat to be otherwise? Live, die, we would accept because our short-sighted ability to change the world by an unchallenged mind would make it so.
So you feel that without struggle we descend into killing each other over minor disagreements? That seems like a fairly exaggerated slippery slope argument.
Our salvation is determined on our ability to decide things can't or shouldn't be changed. Despair, pain from the dangers of nature, do not break the rules of nature. Survival, it teaches us to live, struggle. Without struggle, we decide the uncomfortable should be changed, sadly even at some point we do not realize how much better things could be...
Then, without struggle, we find dissent uncomfortable. We decide because we like the color blue and them red, or they have a smaller nose, or a different color... we believe we can change that, to some degree it is still believed, but without the danger, we are caught in a loop. To decide to know good, we must know evil. We, unable to ascertain truth to the smallest principles that are obvious if you decided them, mist rely on shortcuts and make the observations of good, evil, and categorize. And construct. With good and evil, we teach to others, sometimes unbeknowing to us, and change nature. Now, because we can change minds, the future, to make it otherwise would impede on our good and evil. Even as concepts, we acknowledge, and therefore know. Knowing is our curse, and without true nihilism, separate from any influence of things that can think or associate besides ourselves, even then still dies but doesn't think on itself without the natural influence.
We decided for others, even when we decide for ourselves, else we ourselves cannot truely decide. We would be worse off if nature could not kill us, we would kill until we are nations of 1, then 0.
Should you be imprisoned for crimes your grandfather committed?
If not, how do you justify God punishing us for sins committed at least thousands of years ago?
Also, when did original sin take place? You have already agreed that you don't believe in the literal creation story, so what do you believe actually was original sin?
Why just talk about child rape and death from unclean water? Why not the natural disasters or terminal disease or terrorism? Why would a loving God give these?
The truth is humans are the master of their own destiny and actions. The idea of God is for us to remain optimistic when we loose all our hope, to think that even in our darkest times, we will find a light. God is not supernatural puppeteer who can pull strings and make things perfect. So there is no loving or unloving God. There are just the actions of humans and the balance of nature, and these are the reasons for a child rape and death from unclean water.
Everyone has felt the presents of the creator, when we're children that feeling of oneself purpose that we are here for something amazing, that hole in your chest that you have to fill, so you search and search and some people find it, and some unfortunately don't, so they grab what they can get their hands on and plug that hole up.
It's nature, the process that all species have to go through until the final blow. Human beings are tested everyday in so many ways, it's our reason of existence. To test our strength and our patients and our faith and our worthiness for his everlasting blessing in paradise.
Those are a result of the fall of man.
In what way is a tornado killing infants a result of free will? Or an earthquake or tsunami? I can see people polluted the water being human responsibility, but how are acts of God not God's fault?
a loving God wouldn't allow that, but man would, cruelty is the nature of man
not cruel, cruel would be unjust and God is all just
You have to look at it as punishment. It's not one person being punished it's the whole human race. G-d is loving, and also very cruel at times.
free will man