The debate "Abortion should stay and still be pro choice. do not treat women as slaves it's their body" was started by
December 19, 2015, 9:02 pm.
23 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 18 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
rob5998 posted 1 argument, Monster posted 3 arguments, danielle posted 10 arguments to the agreers part.
multishooterftw posted 1 argument, Alex posted 13 arguments to the disagreers part.
AngryBlogger, pajrc1234, swp16, M, Monster, danielle, Gordan, DylanVega, NaggingNut and 14 visitors agree.
AstroSpace, jjrocks1738, multishooterftw, Alex, gamelia94, Talks_N_Rants, ReadyToBegin, Firplius, bcdunn7, SwaggerPoptart, blakelovesjesus, Thejw and 6 visitors disagree.
That should have read that Wikipedia has definitions of type and length of time. Autocorrect made a mess of that statement.
The problem with waiting is that it costs money to keep someone on life support. In countries with decent health care, the government picks up that tab so, in the UK for example, they wait 12 months before determining that a vegetative state is permanent. In the US, that would cost tens of thousands of dollars to use the equipment and hospital bed, bankrupting many families. Saying that it is murder essentially gives them the choice of murder or homelessness and starvation as they try to pay medical bills.
There is too much information on vegetative states to really go into it in this forum, but Wikipedia has a fairly thorough article about it including destinations in type and length if time. Basically the longer it goes on the less chance of recovery, but throughout there is brain activity.
If you want a very brief description of many of the more common ideas of when life starts, there is a decent resource here.
It goes through many from the Catholic idea that it begins preconception, which is why condoms are prohibited, to sometime during childhood when the child reaches self-awareness.
The reason historybuff says that a fetus can't think, and that it is not alive is because it seems he subscribes to the 25 week standard. It is based on the fact that someone is considered dead when an EEG does not measure regular wave patterns. Therefore life begins when this same standard is met. This happens at around 25 weeks. It is not an unreasonable stance since it is basing the decision of when life begins on an already established definition of when life ceases. If life is over when brain activity stops, logically it starts when brain activity starts.
you know when you use quotes, it is generally a good idea to actually quote them. also you didn't refute what I said. it cannot think at that stage of development.
If I had a nickel for everytime historybuff said "a fetus can't think, it's not alive" I'd have 5 dollors.
I'm no doctor or scientist, so I'm not 100% sure how they do stuff in hospitals. I think if someone has a chance to get off life support pulling the plug is murder. can't you wait and if the person is dying, his brain will shut off? if ones brain is off he is dead.
So if there is any chance at all you consider it murder?
a fetus cannot think. it cannot move by its own choice, only by reflex.
it is murder if the person has a chance to recover, and he can move/think.
A person in a persistent vegetative state can spontaneously recover, yes. It is rare, but it can happen. They can reflexively move in some cases and their brains are often more able to think than those of a fetus which does not have a brain sufficiently developed for thought.
Are you prepared to answer whether you consider that murder in light of these facts?
can the person on life support recover? can he move, think, act in any way?
You are still ignoring all medical and logical evidence against your religiously based opinion. No matter what your church says, a fetus is not a person. You have tried to equate it to various blatantly flawed analogies, but you seem to avoid the one that I brought up. Is pulling the plug on someone on life support murder?
it doesn't matter if they feel anything or not. human life is human life. killing is killing.
do you feel guilt when you kill plants. they're alive but have no consciousness, just like a fetus
killing is the wrong word, I understand why you see it that way but its not, the foetus can't feel anything,
but the mother feels no guilt killing?
if they have an abortion, the foetus suffers no damage! it cannot understand or feel so it doesn't know, the parents do it before its formed etv before they know it,
after nine months of pregnancy bonds would be formed between mother and child which when broken cause psychological damage, the child grows up in care knowing it wasn't wanted the mother feels guilty !
I'd rather have an alive child then a dead one. the parents are considering killing there child, but putting them up for adoption has more psychological damage?
you can out it up for adoption, but there are already thousands of children without homes? you don't want to be adding to it! not to mention the psychological damage if could have on both the parents and the child
yes, that may be the case, but abortion is never the answer. In that case you can put the baby up for adoption.
the sumary here is, yes there will always be people against abortion because its "killing" or whatever, but the truth is there are too many if's and buts to make it illegal!
no one has an abortion for the fun on of it, all abortions happen for a legitimate reason
theyre sinning because they don't want kids! what the hell???? what If they want to travel or have careers? not very easy with kids!
you are being too stubborn, like I said before there are too many if's!
scenario: a couple who both have careers that mean they have to travel alot, they have sex because they've been married twenty years and thats what married couples do! they use protection because they don't want kids and never had wanted them however for whatever reason it doesn't work ( condom breaks, pill fails etc) and she ends up pregnant.
they don't want a child as they love their careers, they love to travel, they don't feel ready, they don't like kids etc, they don't want it! is it really fair to Deny them an abortion!
neither are complete. they are not capable of keeping it alive, and they never have been.
it has a heart and a brain.
you are being internationally dumb. a fetus does not possess the organs to survive. it has never had the organs to survive. someone who is injured and a fetus which has never had the ability to live are not the same.
yes or no. can I survive on my own if I get shot, or not? the answer is no. so by your "must be capable of self supporting life" that shot person is not alive.
YOU ARE LITERALLY THE DEFINITION OF AN IMBECILE. LOOK. If you are shot you are injured! Just like Dave said. You are still alive and you have the potential of life. A fetus and someone who is shot have nothing in common. There are no parallels between the two.
Do your own research. You are obviously not listening to us.
Dave ever heard the term "left for dead" if someone has just been shot they can't live on their own, they would die soon, unless the receive medical attention. what about someone who can't do everyday tasks? everyday tasks are nessary to life.
if a married couple does not want children, they are sinning and unless one of them has a problem where they can't have kids.
okay so what about a couple who have been together for twenty years but don't want kids are you really gonna tell them they can't have sex??
You really can't connect the dots, can you? Am I using too many big words or are you intentionally not understanding?
Abortion is equivalent to pulling the plug on someone who is on life support. In both cases the individual is not capable of life independently. Not just needs medical attention or assistance with everyday tasks. Incapable of sustaining life. That is why people are on life support. In the case of a foetus, the mother's organs are doing all of the work.
Stop trying to equate it to unrelated things that have one thing in common. Someone who is shot is not incapable of living, they are injured. Someone who has a mental illness is not incapable of living, they require assistance with tasks. Try to use logic, it will make this a lot less frustrating.
or someone with a serious mental illness. they need people to help them do regular things.
neither is someone who had just been shot. someone who had been shot can recover with hospital help, not on his own.
You really are missing the understanding that a fetus is not capable of life on its own. Where are we losing you?
poetic is one thing that I am not. a teenager dies not have a fully developed brain. is it alive?
Alex. You are saying a fetus is a human being. You are wrong. But you are right at the same time. Nobody is doubting that a fetus is a potential life and I guess you could be poetic and say you are killing someone because you are taking their future life.
However, even though a fetus does have both a brain and a heart, they are most certainly not alive. A baby goes under stages of development before it can be considered "alive". And a fetus is not that. Does a fetus have a functioning brain? No. Does a fetus have a fully functioning heart along with every other system in the body? (circulatory, digestive ect) The answer is no.
You can continue to be poetic but you are losing you're argument when you do so. A fetus does not feel pain. And it is not aware that it is alive or even exists. Killing a fetus is the equivalent of masturbating in the shower.
rape victim abortions are less then 1% of all abortions. it seems you are yet again going to a "special case" to argue your point.
The Nazis committed murder on a massive scale, so the Nazis. Is masturbation murder? Every spermicides moved and had the potential to be a person.
You are trying to claim that you have more expertise in human development than the medical community, which is laughable. Whether you apply your sarcastic face or not, you are not a doctor or legal expert. We have repeatedly explained why the law is as it is. Whether you accept it or hide from reality is entirely up to you.
Finally, when a woman is raped, she didn't choose to have sex. The fact that it didn't "magically appear" is besides the point. Your sarcasm and intentional oversimplification doesn't help your argument.
fetus has a developing brain and a beating heart, it can move around and hear things, but it's not a person. (sarcastic face here)
Dave, my comment was fact the numbers were true. abortion numbers was higher then the nazis so what killed more people?
do you understand a child is not magical, it doesn't appear randomly in a woman. IF YOU DON'T WANT A CHILD DON'T HAVE SEX.
it's also not fair to kill people.
It comes down to whether or not a fetus is a person. since a fetus isn't a person then killing them isn't murder. in a proper abortion no human being has ever been killed. so no it is not worse than the Nazis who murdered millions because it isn't murder.
I'm sorry but the way I see it, is that every arguement some one has against abortion can be countered
it is not fair to make some one have a child they don't want,
That says more about your character than your argument. If you honestly believe that I challenge you to post that on social media and see the response.
From 1973 through 2011, nearly 53 million legal abortions occurred in the U.S.
while the nazis only killed 11 million people.
so in this case abortion is worse then the nazis.
@historybuff which mass murder are you talking about, the nazis killing or abortion?
the system you have now may "work" whatever that means, but a killing a fetus with a brain, beating heart, limbs, hair, and the ability to hear and move is wrong. so abortion people are like Hitler their system works in doing bad things. you are successful in killing inocents.
trying to link a consentual medical procedures to a nazi medical experiments and mass murders is rediculous. they aren't even similar.
the nazis said stuff like the system we have now works, don't change Hitler's system. does that mean Hitler's system is right?
that's not what the Nazis said!! and having an abortion is completely different to what the Nazis did!
that's what the nazis said. does it make them right?
there are too many if's and buts when it comes to making abortion illegal, in the UK the abortion has to be approved by two separate doctors and be before 24 weeks! The system we have now works, like I said to change it would be far too complicated
a fetus at weeks 6-7 starts growing a brain. the brain is not developed fully until about 22 years. around the same time the fetus heart starts to pump blood and beat. the fetus at the time of abortion has a brain, beating heart, can move, and depending on how late the abortion is, can hear.
abortion should remain pro-choice! no one should be forced into having a child they don't want!
Um no the "baby" has no consciousness. It isn't even a baby its a fetus. It could be a potential child but so can my sperm when I masturbate. Are my sperm my slaves? I don't think so.
masturbating for men should be illigal each one if the sperm could be a child
if it doesn't have a functional brain it isn't a person. a fetus is not a baby. a consensual abortion isn't torturing or killing any human being.
Well technically a baby inside of a women is it's own little body, no matter how old. Therefore abortion is torturing the womens body and killing the unborn baby.