AMERICA should go back to the principals that made it great for 200 years.

February 21, 2016, 7:50 pm

Agree26 Disagree23

53%
47%

The debate "AMERICA should go back to the principals that made it great for 200 years." was started by Alex on February 21, 2016, 7:50 pm. 26 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 23 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

Alex posted 33 arguments to the agreers part.
Burnin posted 1 argument, RyanWakefield posted 2 arguments, PoliticsAsUsual posted 17 arguments, PsychDave posted 11 arguments to the disagreers part.

Alex, MinuteMan101, Deepak, ReadyToBegin, ProudAmerican888, alexoliver, oscar90000, xaveragexjoesx, CMe2dey_64, healthywhealthy, fadi, shenanigans, BlueMouse and 13 visitors agree.
Burnin, sloanstar1000, PsychDave, Nox, sickboyblonde, gentle&nice, RyanWakefield, PoliticsAsUsual, Freyja, WiseGirl, lawyerlady and 12 visitors disagree.

PsychDave
replied to...

"anybody finishing the Second Grade was completely literate. He could go out and find a mountain man, and they could read a newspaper, and they could talk politics"

Interview with Craig Von Busch where he said essentially the same thing.

This is where the claim runs into problems. He implies universal literacy for anyone who graduated grade 2. This should be easy to prove, but since it is not true it is not.

3 years, 4 months ago

"even mountain men" does not mean "all mountain men" as you seem to think it does.

instead it means there were mountain men who could read and discuss how the goverment works. again do you disagree that mountain men were capable of reading and discussing things?

3 years, 4 months ago

you never said what the phrase "even mountain men" means to you ***

how do you interpret that combination of words since our understanding of basic English is apparently filled with liberal bias.

3 years, 4 months ago

he did not say some mountain men could read. he said even mountain men could read.

you never said what they phrase "even mountain man" could read.

my new question is "can you read" seeing as I have to keep repeating that I did not do any fact check sites regarding anything Ben Carson said. the fact check site was about Obamas birth certificate, which isn't what is being discussed here. you brought up the Carson clip, I watched it. are you saying I'm not allowed to question it?

start a thread about Obama's certificate if you like, but please keep on the topic you brought up to begin with here.

3 years, 4 months ago

actually Obama's birth certificate was proven to be fake.

and again Carson did not lie. he said some mountain men could read, you are lying by saying no mountain men could read.

3 years, 4 months ago

the difference is that Carson said something that was proven to be a lie. people demanding Obama's birth certificate were making an unfounded claim with no evidence. and he did eventually humor them and prove them wrong. but proof isn't good enough if you just want to believe it regardless of the facts.

3 years, 4 months ago

some could some could not read. Carson focused on those who could, liberal fact checking sites focused on those who couldn't.

but let's argue about this little thing, and let Obama get away with not showing his birth certificate until after he was elected. do you see how fact checking websites are biased?

3 years, 4 months ago

"even mountain men"
to me that phrase means that EVEN isolated people without wealth, living far from normal civilization, the most unlikely to be given the, at the time, very rare and expensive honor, of an education. Cleary implying that everyone in a more likely to be educated position than the isolated, impoverished mountain man, would definitely be educated enough to read.

how do you interpret those words?

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

How do you interpret "even mountain men could read" to not be claiming they could read? Could you connect those opposite statements so that they support your argument?

3 years, 4 months ago

"even mountain men in outskirts of society could read a news paper and discuss how their government works"
funny how liberals see that as
"America had wide spread literacy and education in 1831."

could some mountain men read and discuss how the goverment works? yes. Carson did not say "all" or even a widespread amount of them could read.

I guess you could accuse Carson as not being clear or something, but he didn't lie. that is what is wrong with fact checking sites, the liberal bias makes them change what he said.

3 years, 4 months ago

I didn't cite fact check about that question. I provided an official federal website showing literacy rates in our history and concluded that Carson is full of it.

and Carson said that "even mountain men in outskirts of society could read a news paper and discuss how their government works"

reading a news paper requires literacy.

this is not a political issue, if he is telling the truth it shouldn't be that hard to confirm. sooo.... back up your candidate.

3 years, 4 months ago

did Carson say that? did he say "America had wide spread literacy and education in 1831."
this is what is wrong with fact checking sites. similar to what you did they take thibgs people did not say and check it. so duh it's going to be wrong.
strange that they will only do this with rebublicans, not democrats.

3 years, 4 months ago

they cite all their sources and you can cross reference them any time, unlike your cite.

but let's stop avoiding the question. please find any evidence that America had wide spread literacy and education in 1831.

3 years, 4 months ago

factcheck.org and politifact.org are extremely left wing biased, and everyone knows it.

3 years, 4 months ago

and I love your defense that "it's OK to question Carson but not Obama."

This conversation is about carson, a conversation you started, which is why I asked questions. The only reason you brought Obama into here is because you didn't want to answer any questions about Carson.

it is perfectly fine to question obama, but these particular questions have been answered nearly a decade ago. You are simply dodging the issues and frankly being a hypocrite.

3 years, 4 months ago

alex, I read the link you provided, I also Googled the source. western journalism is a highly partisan site that has been sued on several occasions for false information and not citing its sourced. factcheck.org is a nonpartisan reputable source that has, in detail, shown how all the documents Obama could be expected to be released have been. did you read my link?

you do know you can find anything on the Internet including evidence for big foot, the loch Ness monster, and gnomes. not all sources are created equal.

3 years, 4 months ago

Alex, to put the many conspiracy theories and demands for information from Obama in perspective, I could claim that Trump is the bastard child of his mother's affair at a fundraising banquet. His parents attended many and there are numerous breaks in the proof of his mother's presence, and Trump's father worked a lot which left his mother feeling neglected. She solved this by having affairs with the staff and guests at the various events they attended. Do you believe that this claim entitles me to demand Trump show a paternity test? If he refuses, does that give credibility to the claim and show that he is hiding something?

Of course none of that is true since I just made it up off the top of my head, but I could collect supporting evidence and spin a story that could be credible. Without real evidence, why should he bother to release any personal information? If he did the test, I could easily claim it was tampered with or that he paid off the lab.

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

2

The filmmaker claims the woman in the pictures was Obama's mother because she looks similar, but strangely he never hired a photography expert. He just based it in him thinking they looked alike. That seems like a terrible way to prove they are the same person since he is basically admitting that he has absolutely no evidence.

As I said, I read the article, but if that is what you consider a reliable source, I will have to reevaluate how much stock I put in your opinions. There are blatant lies mixed in with the inaccurate information and misleading statements that a basic fact check would show. Just Google search key words and look at various results and, if all of the claims lead back to the same person who doesn't have proof, and there are numerous sources debunking it, you know the source is not reliable. Rather than simply posting a link, you should fact check to some extent to make sure you are not seeming like you are either not intelligent enough to see the lies and inaccuracies, or are intentionally being dishonest.

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

1

I did read it and it amazes me that anyone would post an article so full of lies and inaccuracies without any kind if editing or fact checking.

It claims Obama spent millions on legal fees to hide information. The only way this claim makes any sense is his legal fees following the election. While these fees were over 2 million, they were not from just fighting the lawsuits spawned by Trump's accusations. They also covered all of the other legal matters that come from running for president. For comparison, John McCain spent over 1.3 million on a much smaller campaign budget, and he didn't have to defend himself from stupid lawsuits.

It goes on to attack him for not producing his report cards from school, or his thesis. I question why his grades matter, and if you look into it a bit more, he didn't have to write a thesis to graduate. The thesis they are looking for was from a specific class, so let me ask you, if you attended college did you save every essay and paper you wrote? If not, what are you hiding?

It then goes on to question how he paid for school, since he hasn't produced proof of his student loans. Again, why should he give his private financial information to the press to satisfy people who will ignore it or claim it is a forgery? If he releases proof, you claim it is fake, showing he is hiding something. If he doesn't, you claim that is proof that he is hiding something. Why should he humour you?

It then goes on to claim that his records are sealed (which is a blatant lie) and that if Bush or McCain did not produce their records it would be a huge story. So here's a question, what did Bush get on his SATs? What was his thesis about and how much did he pay in tuition? Is that all public record, or are you being ignorant by having an absurd double standard?

It then goes on with done unproven garbage about social security numbers brought up by someone who has sued for all kinds of stupid reasons and has yet to win, so their claims are suspicious at best and intentionally misleading more likely.

It then proceeds to say that Obama's mother did pornography without any real proof beyond the word of someone who mailed recordings of this to voters in am attempt to sway their votes. That is about as obscene an attempt at a smear campaign as I have ever heard of. The "documentary" was privately funded, but strangely the filmmaker refused to say who funded it. I wonder what he was hiding?

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

I question a claim Carson made based on historical records of literacy rates. You question Obama on his birth AFTER he has released his his birth certificate. The difference is I am questioning a claim made without proof, you are questioning something without evidence, even after proof has been given that demonstrates you are wrong.

3 years, 4 months ago

and why is it wrong to question Obama, but ok to question Carson?

3 years, 4 months ago

we actually know less about Obama then any other president. look at the link I gave you, it provided proof.

3 years, 4 months ago

Could you provide some form of evidence to back your claim that it was fake? Otherwise you are making absurd accusations with no evidence.

Carson said the mountain men could read the paper and that was why they were so educated about the government and current events. That is why his claim is being criticized. I agree that education is important and that he has supported it, but I would need to see the document he us referring to detailing the findings to believe it.

It does matter if they are sealed or not. You haven't seen Trump's medical history, birth certificate or college grades, but you don't find that suspicious. You haven't seen Carson's draft registration, but you aren't making claims about him. You are picking documents that, even when provided, you claim are faked without any evidence. Obama has provided more proof than any other president to my knowledge, and that hasn't stopped people like you from ignoring the evidence and continuing to lie, so why should we entertain you by continuing to try to reason with an unreasonable person?

3 years, 4 months ago

did you read the link I gave you? ever heard of a fake paper? his draft registration was proven to be fake, so was his birth certificate he released after he was elected.
also it doesn't matter if they are sealed or not, nobody has seen them, so I'll use an atheist argument here "until I see them, and have solid proof they exist, them those papers are imaginary"

3 years, 4 months ago

and when Carson talked about mountain men being smart, he ment they could tell you about the goverment, how it worked, who was president.
there is a fox news thing called "walters world" where a reporter goes out and asks people simple questions about the goverment. people are stupid.

3 years, 4 months ago

none of those math problems had missing variables. that is the definition of algebra. the section is titled "arithmetic"

calculators are not used on tests today in any worthwhile schools.

3 years, 4 months ago

again they had no calculators back then, today algebra is possible because of calculators, and some of those word problems were basic algebra equations.

3 years, 4 months ago

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/obamas-sealed-records/

how do you keep falling for nonsense without doing a simple Google search to confirm?

3 years, 4 months ago

8th graders today would be well ahead of that level. Aside from the historic figures and events that have become less relevant with time and more events happening, and changes in definition (an epoch is millions of years now), this is basic stuff.

heck they only have arithmetic in the math section, today's 8th graders are well into algebra, at least in the common core standards.

grammar was definetely more demanding at that time, but unsprisingly there is 0 science education.

regardless, this was a test for elites with private tutors. education was not a right but a privelege back then. I'm still waiting for you to back up his full literacy at 1831 for me cause that I'd laughable.

3 years, 4 months ago

I must say my link has 100x more info against Obama then yours does against carson.

who are these "classmates" carson knew? Carson has said he doesn't know these people.

3 years, 4 months ago

8th grades could not even come close to passing that test. those who went to school in the 1800's became smart and literate, much much smarter then other nations.

3 years, 4 months ago

http://www.westernjournalism.com/exclusive-investigative-reports/the-mystery-of-barack-obama-continues/

3 years, 4 months ago

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/childhood-friends-of-ben-carson-confirm-that-his-entire-backstory-is-a-lie/22967/

3 years, 4 months ago

obviously 8th graders have been recently drilling the material, and I don't know your situation.

this question was comparing college students today to 6th graders from the 1800s..... 6th graders are like 12. at least 8th graders are well into puberty.

what lies did I mix up with fact? America's near universal literacy in the early 1800s? please, find anything to back that up.

3 years, 4 months ago

I don't know the details of his backstory, but I've heard it's very inaccurate.

you continue to "hear things". Why don't you check out Obama's fishy back story?

as I mentioned before the media (CNN) say Carson was smart and logical, so they sought out to destroy his campaign, if lies were needed, they used them. unfortunately it worked, and people arnt voting for carson because of something that may have/may have not happened in the 8th grade, while ignoring his brilliant solutions.

3 years, 4 months ago

you seem to have facts and lies mixed up.

also that stuff about no solutions for low schools in low income areas is false. Carson made a "book room" in these areas, kids would get points and prizes when they read books, so they read books. then these kids became smarter.

3 years, 4 months ago

http://thinklab.typepad.com/think_lab/2006/03/8th_grade_exami.html

this is a 8th grade test, and I couldn't pass it, especially with no calculator on the math part!

3 years, 4 months ago

it takes time for me to find time to watch a video, unlike text that I can read on the fly so patience please, but here's my take.

I noticed 2 issues raised here

1. PC. I think Republicans and many liberals fail to understand the purpose and place of PC. POLITICAL correctness is meant for POLITICIANS and professional environments, not private situations on the street. also Republicans have been developing their own version of political correctness in the past few years that is just as stupid.

2. Education. I agree, we need better education, however solutions are not presented. this requires social investment to bring low performing schools, often in low income areas up to speed. this is an issue Democrats champion and Republicans oppose.

What I do find unsettling are his lies. I don't know the details of his backstory, but I've heard it's very inaccurate. but his claim about some guy coming to this country in 1831 and being astounded that even mountain people can read and effectively discuss government and politics.

I find that hard to believe considering manditory education didn't begin to be instituted until 1850s and wasn't nation wide until well into the 1900s. it's also unbelievable because in 1900s American literacy was only at 80%, that's 70 years later then his claim of full literacy in 1831.

and that nonsense about 6th grade tests above college level is total bullshit, maybe he would be an excellent politician, he has the inspirational lying down to a science.

3 years, 4 months ago

the left and right working together Is something that must happen, or congress will never get anything done, ever.

3 years, 4 months ago

what we have now is not working. Hillary wants to do more of the same, so she's out. Trump and Sanders want to go to illogical possibly unconstitutional extremes, that's way to risky. Carson wants to use logical ideas and use common sence to improve the nation. both conservatives and liberals should be able to agree with common sense.

3 years, 4 months ago

It worked that time.

As always, he was eloquent and we'll spoken. I agree with nearly everything he said. Obviously I disagree with his plan for health care and taxation, but we have covered that in previous debates. It isn't even that I think he is wrong about them working, I just disagree that they are the most efficient methods and, as he said, it is important to be efficient in public programs. He is absolutely right about the importance of education, and I agree that we need people from all different backgrounds in positions of power and that we need to stop being so sensitive and worrying about being politically correct. There is a difference between that and being intentionally insulting like Trump, but he brought that up as well. I also really liked his parable about the left and right working together.

3 years, 4 months ago

no problem, take your time

3 years, 4 months ago

Sorry, just got home from work. I will try it shortly.

3 years, 4 months ago

?

3 years, 4 months ago

did it work?

3 years, 4 months ago

it was supposed to show a ben carson speech, where he talks about real issues. I'll try it again. https://youtu.be/8M8aYiPZIF0

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

I seem to get a 404 error when I try to follow that link. What was it supposed to show?

3 years, 4 months ago

lmao alex, your article is counting retirees and clearly states that retiring baby boomers are driving that unemployment figures.

"The number of Americans not in the labor force has continued to rise, partly because of retiring baby-boomers and fewer workers entering the workforce."

this from your own link

I though we were talking about able bodied people who can work but have no work available to them, not old people well past their prime lmao

should we start counting unemployed babies too?

btw, there is an easy solution to the real crisis of our aging population, immigration. but we all know the right wing approach to that, lol.

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

I have. How much is the deductible going to be? Because if it's less than $5000, why not just have the government pay the deductible. If it is more, low income parents may not be able to afford it. Have you actually read his plan, of just Fox's synopsis of it?

3 years, 4 months ago

insurance pays for a baby delivery right?
I don't think you've actually read what he wants to do.

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Carson is one person with his opinion on what everyone wants. There are other doctors who strongly disagree. Before you pan his plan as the best solution possible, look at both sides.

You might be interested in the fact that he literally wants to give people free, tax free money, which you seem to think is a bad thing in every other circumstance. Add to that the fact that he wants to give everyone $5000 to cover their health costs. Having a baby costs an average of $13000 (depending on where you live) for a normal delivery with no complications. That means anyone who doesn't have that extra money laying around is going into debt.

3 years, 4 months ago

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/record-94031000-americans-not-labor-force-participation-rate-stuck-38-year.

the states don't want obamacare, they were forced into it.

how about checking out a health care plan by someone who knows about health care? maybe a doctor? Carson is the only one running for pres who knows what insurance companies, doctors, and patients want. you'll find his plan to have similarities with Obamacare.

3 years, 4 months ago

if the biggest flaw of Obama care is the website then that is a success. besides, the federal site was never intended to handle that volume. it was many Republican governors who decided to do everything to stop Obama and not do state exchanges as was intended that caused the Fed site to be overloaded. the right always complains that the Fed takes all the powers that should go to the state, but when Obama told the states to take care of their citizens they cried for the Fed to do it lmao.

and please, provide a source for your unemployment claim.

3 years, 4 months ago

lower health costs like fewer last minute emergency room surgeries that cost many times more than regular surgeries. even better if the surgery is completely prevented thanks to people being able to see a primary care doctor, which is pennies compared to surgery.
that is Ben carson's plan without all the failing Obamacare sideshow.

and a trillion dollor website that fails is not a good investment.


as for unemployment. unemployment rates are trash. it measures people who are looking for jobs only. look at % of Americans without jobs. that is high. a lot of Americans today have given up on finding a job.

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Please, going forward do provide links. You are constantly making claims with little or no proof beyond you saying it is so.

3 years, 4 months ago

and unemployment is low... I have no idea where you are getting your info, but it is not accurate.

3 years, 4 months ago

the debt is nothing new, and was mostly created by Bush while cutting benefits. most of Obama debt came from Obama care which will pay off immensely in the long run with lower health costs like fewer last minute emergency room surgeries that cost many times more than regular surgeries. even better if the surgery is completely prevented thanks to people being able to see a primary care doctor, which is pennies compared to surgery.

you are missing the bigger picture. no business advances by cutting costs. you have to spend money to make money, and most liberal spendings are investments that will pay off in the future. we just have to make sure the right liberals are making good investments.

you do realize that tax payers often foot the bill for emergency room visits by low income people right? Obama care will save YOU a lot of money if you are capable of seeing the bigger picture.

3 years, 4 months ago

nothings says recovering economy like high unemployment rates, and record debt.

3 years, 4 months ago

forget about the record amount of people out of work, and the trillions of dollors in debt, currently rising. I figure this is common knowledge and undebatable, but if you disagree that the debt is rising, I'll send you a link.

3 years, 4 months ago

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/10/10/want-a-better-economy-history-says-vote-democrat/#69d3a9d367a1

3 years, 4 months ago

Corporate profits have risen under Obama more than any other president

The stock market has soared 14.72%/year under Obama, second only to Clinton ? which should be a big deal since 2/3 of people (not just the upper class) have a 401K or similar investment vehicle dependent upon corporate profits and stock market performance?

3 years, 4 months ago

OMG alex, how did Obama destroy the economy? how about you actually back something you say with a source? I'm tired of repeating the fact that our economy is recovering faster than any other comparable nation.

3 years, 4 months ago

that would mean Obama is a conservative cause he destroyed this economy the most.

Don't give me that crapp about Obama being a weak pres who can't get anything done cause of congress, bush. Obama got many things done.

3 years, 4 months ago

Liberals made this country great, like FDR and the founding fathers. conservatives just keep destroying the economy.

3 years, 4 months ago

except the US is broken. in many, many ways. the world despises you. you have the crime rate of a third world hell hole. your economy is tanking. in what way are you not broken?

wtf??? if it ain't broke dont fix it.

do you know what happens when you give a healthy person medicine? they will get sick.

america didn't need to be fixed on s large scale, but liberals tried, and are trying to make it like the rest of the world. the rest of the world, countries like Canada, and European countries ****. but hey let's be like them!


read what I wrote. I never said the US is good, I agree 100% that the us is currently ruined. I said we were great, then liberals tried to fix us.

3 years, 4 months ago

America's economy is recovering faster than any other first world non petrol state. I have no idea where you guys are getting these thoughts. America can be ALOT better, but it's also ALOT better than it has ever been, and is ALOT better than almost any nation of similar scale and diversity.

3 years, 4 months ago

except the US is broken. in many, many ways. the world despises you. you have the crime rate of a third world hell hole. your economy is tanking. in what way are you not broken? the countries you accuse of being shit, in general, function much better than yours does.

3 years, 4 months ago

AMERICA WAS NEVER GREAT, YOU'RE BLINDED BY YOUR PATRIACY.

not sure even historybuff could say something that stupid.

3 years, 4 months ago

AMERICA WAS NEVER GREAT, YOU'RE BLINDED BY YOUR PATRIACY

3 years, 4 months ago

if it ain't broke dont fix it.

do you know what happens when you give a healthy person medicine? they will get sick.

america didn't need to be fixed on s large scale, but liberals tried, and are trying to make it like the rest of the world. the rest of the world, countries like Canada, and European countries ****. but hey let's be like them!

3 years, 4 months ago

but yes, the world moves forward, and our principles should move with it.

3 years, 4 months ago

absolutely, I was mostly responding to Ryan who called them racist and sexist... at that time, literally, who wasnt?

Also, at that time, even basic education was lacking among free white masses, the voting restrictions they placed at that time may have been very understandable... for that time period.

3 years, 4 months ago

no one is questioning their accomplishment. we question the idea that their work is perfect and should never be changed. a big step forward is still just one step of many. you can't just stop because it was a positive step.

3 years, 4 months ago

the founding fathers were massively progressive for their time. without them, civil rights for all would have been delayed for decades if not centuries.

do not forget that they were the first people who fixed democracy from a system that didn't work on any scale larger than a city, to a fuctioning system capable of making a massive nation into a world class superpower and model for the entire free world

3 years, 4 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

how does Sanders want to change the constitution?

3 years, 4 months ago

the founding fathers we rich aristocrats who were homophobic, racist, as and sexist

3 years, 4 months ago

I think with time things need to change. As time goes by, everything starts to evolve n with it must principles be amended.

3 years, 4 months ago

the bill of rights for starters. the founding fathers were smart people, way smarter then sanders, Clinton, Trump, PsychDave, and me.

we should do what they wrote out. the constitution, bill of rights, declaration of independence. it worked for 200 years, and some people (Sanders) want to change the constitution.

3 years, 4 months ago

Sounds nice, people would disagree on which values those are though. Which values do you believe are the right ones?

3 years, 4 months ago
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