The debate "Americans should stop complaining about illegal immigration because they are illegal as well" was started by
June 21, 2015, 12:52 am.
85 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 121 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
Upbeatethan posted 2 arguments, I_Voyager posted 4 arguments, BernieSanders4pres posted 2 arguments, PsychDave posted 1 argument, gerami posted 1 argument, Adavion posted 1 argument, thatdebatingchick posted 1 argument, DerpedLocke posted 1 argument, pajrc1234 posted 1 argument, sighnomore99 posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
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Wait...Does that make the jews illegal immigrants of Israel? Or for that matter...anyone anywhere that has taken over land illegal? Your logic of law is flawed...
native Americans are immigrants too. they just immigrated earlier.
Even if you weren't talking about pilgrims, there were many people who immigrated to America without always using the most legal methods. Chances are that unless you are 100% Native American, you are the descendent of immigrants.
I'm not saying that they are illegal. They should just stop complaining. Illegal would be.... ugh. I can't explain it. The Americans came over with the officials. New immigrants come over without any paperwork that they need, but that doesn't mean we get to complain. They are people too, and they need a better place to live.
Just because natives did not have a formal system of laws does not mean that what the Europeans did was lawful. They as chistians had a law to do unto other as they would have done to them. And yes they were, as a rule, fairly devout christians. Therefore they were violating their own laws by slaughtering them and stealing their land. If it had been in reverse and natives had invaded Europe, the Europeans would have called them hellspawn and denouced them as the greatest evil. As they did with the mongols.
Most Americans didn't immigrate illegally because the Native Americans had no laws on immigration
That fails to address or build on the conversation to date. Yes, the natives immigrated first, no what was done to them was not right. That does not remove the current population's right to talk about a social problem existing today.
The Native Americans were here first. History (and law) is written by the winners, I suppose.
If you go back far enough, ya, kind of, maybe.
My point beyond that was that we all came to this continent at different times, and deserve to speak out mind about any social concerns we have. Whether we have been here since the Bearing Land Bridge, 10 generations, just because a citizen or even have yet to become a citizen, everyone has the right to express their opinion.
I would defend people's right to say things I disagree with for two reasons. First is that I expect them to respect my right to disagree with them. If I expect them to be silent when they disagree with society, I have to expect to be muzzled when I do. Secondly, if they never speak their minds publicly, there cannot be a dialog and we cannot address their concerns, either by changing or explaining why things are as they are. We can never satisfy everyone but suppressing conversation about topics is never successful, and not a good long term plan.
And in that case we're all African.
And... Maybe we are?
In that case the First Nations people are not American either because their ancestors came to America over a land bridge across the Bearing Straight. Humanity is not native to North America.
I really believe that there is no such thing as an american unless you are speaking of the native american people because everybody else is only here because 1.your ancestors came here on a ship or 2.your parents moved to america so you were born here therefore you aren't REALLY american anyway so what's it to you?
At what point do people stop being required to be silent about a social problem because of actions taken by their ancestors (or in some cases other people's ancestors)?
Pointing out that illegal immigration is a problem is not dependent on historical precedent, it is a statement about current events. To say that the actions of those who first settled America mean that we can never talk about immigration seems absurd. What about the Irish who came over during the potato famine? They were not part of the atrocities committed against the First Nations so do they retain their right to talk about immigration?
As I said before, illegal immigration is a problem because those who immigrate illegally do not contribute to social systems, but do benefit from them. It is perfectly valid to seek to discuss something that is a problem in society.
To deny everyone the right to talk about immigration because of the actions of the first settles is similar to saying that someone has no right to discuss legalizing marijuana since their great great great grandfather was in favor of prohibition.
And they'd forget that they built their society on stolen or conquered lands. It's the American cycle: theft, coercion and might. What right do they have to be pissed off that new immigrants are coming to continue the cycle? The American methods never meshed with the Native ones. Why should theirs with yours? What are Americans owed by non-Americans?
The only people who are not immigrants in the US is Native Americans.
Americans did build the country to what it is now therefore i can understand why an american citizen would be upset at the fact that someone who illegally entered the country, was able to steal his or her job.
The reason that they are able to steal your job is because they will do it for a lower cost and all corporations are always trying to find methods to cut down on cost. Also because of immigration the United states has started to reward corporations and businesses to have more minorities working and the company's will hire illegal immigrants at a fraction of the cost of US workers to meet that goal.
girl101 is wrong at the end. If an uneducated immigrant with no previous U.S. work experience who doesn't speak english and has no documentation can steal your job, you don't deserve it.
to clarify, the entire planet started out in Africa, after droughts men became hunter gatherers. No one started in America. Also illegal immigration is bringing in desieses, taking up all the jobs, and is becoming a gateway for terrorists pretending to be immigrants.
if that's the case then nobody's bloodline is native to this land. native Americans came from Asia. Here's the thing though, I was born in this country as an American citizen. my ancestors migrated here hundreds of years ago but I did not. this is my country just as much as it is any other citizens. are should we start allowing black Americans to own white slaves since our white ancestors did such things?
You're born as an American, but your bloodline is not native to America. Just because you've forgotten your origins doesn't mean you don't have origins.
It's a barbaric perspective to believe that peoples only justify themselves by grouping together by contract to commit acts of coercion and war.
As I said before, I certainly don't agree with how North America was settled, but that does not mean that people cannot complain about something that they deal is detrimental to society. Your ancestors having committed a horrible crime does not remove your right to free speech.
Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. This means that while the may use the infrastructure of society, they did not contribute towards it. They see the benefits of having police officers preventing crime and firemen stopping fires, but do not help pay the costs.
The best way I can see to solve this is to let them immigrate legally. Then they pay taxes and help support the infrastructure, and receive all of benefits of being a citizen. As long as they are contributing to society (ie not selling drugs and such), which is true if the vast majority of immigrants, why spend money tracking them down and deporting them when you could gain new tax revenue without that expense?
it is illegal immoral and sinful in almost every religion out there... we are all illegal immigrants
if you believe in any god out there, what people did to migrate here was disgusting, it was one of the first genocides in the recent past, killing innocent native americans may noy be illegal by the laws of the time but it is a damn illegal act to kill. and we are all living upon lands of which dont truly belong to us... they were native american lands
I was born here in America by 2 people who were also born here. So I am not Illegal. If the country of Mexico went to war with us, conquered us and claimed this country to now be Mexico, then they would no longer be illegal.
Every country exists because someone conquered someone else. We won, it's our country now. We, as the dominate occupying society that creates the laws within out borders, decide what is illegal. What of people just started moving onto the res?
Bull shit meat missile go stick you argument up your ass. We did not let you on this land we did have immigration laws. Well only one it was called gtfo our land. I don't give a shit rather or not your were the one who did it did you know in the Americans would sterilize native American wemon without them knowing. There are still people persecuting the mother f***ing Sioux.
Go back far enough and everyone is an immigrant to North America. People did not evolve here so even the Native American people are immigrants.
That point aside, if something is a detriment to society, or if someone perceives something to be a detriment, there is good reason to criticize it and complain about it. Illegal immigrants do use resources, and do not pay the taxes that help support those systems, so they can be a drain on society. While many feel that preventing them from immigrating, or deporting them if they do is the best solution, I think recognizing them as citizens and taxing them is a better solution since it costs far less in legal and policing resources, and provides more tax revenue.
That depends on whether laws emerge because of authority or the objectivity of the right. If the objectivity of the right is true, the legal perception of an organization is irrelevant. There would be a foundational or minimal principle of land use, immigration, etc... Which ought to be respected. Yet it wasn't. I'll agree the modern citizens of the west don't deserve to somehow be dejected from the land they were born on because of the sins of their ancestors. We ought not inherit our parents debt to the children of the debters. But American anti-immigration zealots are caught up in a political fad of being contentious for the sake of contention. The rich love it when idiots bicker over gays or immigrants or religion. Such topics act like a smokescreen for the immorality and corruption rampant in high-money organizations and governments. You can control people who give their all for nothing at all.
We aren't those people and even tho American settlers did do horrible things to the Indians we didn't. We were born into a country we had no say in starting. We believe it is ours and we have defended it many times. Also, we can't be illegal if the Indians never had immigration laws in the first place or a country
The believe the Americans encroached on My people, (the mvskoke's) land. So they should stop complaining we didn't have any power to stop them why should they have any power to stop the immigrants