The debate "Bernie Sanders can win Iowa and the election" was started by
January 29, 2016, 10:54 pm.
27 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 21 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
progressive posted 4 arguments to the agreers part.
oscar90000 posted 1 argument, Alex posted 38 arguments, historybuff posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
omactivate, progressive, Fettywap100, thenbamatrix, sloanstar1000, wmd, waynemc15, ReadyToBegin, RyanWakefield, eric1943 and 17 visitors agree.
AngryBlogger, Alex, oscar90000, fLipp3r, debateisgreat, alexoliver, Bodaciouslady16, rob5998, historybuff, Adonah, MinuteMan101, laurafuna and 9 visitors disagree.
Alex, it's easy to say that everyone should pay the same and that it would be fair, but equal is not always fair.
If one family is living on $100 per week, taxing them 10% leaves them substantially poorer. If another family is living on $1000 per week, 10% is the save ratio, but cuts into their essential budget far less. If a third family is making $20000 per week (roughly $1 million per year) 10% is unlikely to be noticed wince what is left is still more than any family needs.
That is the problem with a flat tax. Those with lower incomes feel the impact far more. That is why developed nations have adopted a variety of systems with tax brackets that tax higher incomes more than low incomes.
people don't move entire companies to avoid personal taxes. unless China agrees to let them all become Chinese citizens they can't move there. stop saying that. it doesn't make sense
so a magazine run and owned by rich people, which is predominantly read by wealthy people, think that a huge tax break for the rich is a good thing? I'm just surprised anyone takes it seriously when millionaires say "of course me paying less taxes is good for you".
forcing people to pay higher tax brackets is not blaming them or punishing them. it is asking them to pay what they can for the good of the country. and the government (the American government especially) is heavily influenced by corporate lobbying. so saying they are blameless in the state of the country is a blatant lie.
logical arguments always win. Carson also mentioned that you people blame "the evil rich people" for the problems, when in reality it is the "evil goverment" causing the problems. don't blame the rich for being rich.
People in poverty paying some taxes, because everyone should pay something.
so taxing one person 10% and another 15% is fair? strange way of thinking.
look at Dr. Ben Carson's tax plan. it was voted best by wall street journal, and many others. He had peop
"these are taxes on individuals, not corporations. so your analogy of companies moving away makes no sense. and if the company doesn't move then the salary is earned here and is taxable. what are you rambling on about?"
corporations are run by people, a successful corporation is run by rich people. a rich person getting unfairly tax will want to move to a place where they won't get taxed unfairly. this person will most likely bring their business along with them.
Alex, however many times you repeat inaccurate comments, you don't become less wrong.
Income tax based on income is not an unfair tax, so no, I don't believe in an unfair tax. Since you have already admitted you know next to nothing about tax law, how are your opinions valid in determining it is unfair?
Your warning is noted, and pointlessly misguided. Income tax is not what is wrong with the economy. Stupid spending is. Letting people amass immense fortunes while evading paying their taxes is. Racist, xenophobic, homophobic and sexist policies that waste money and don't help anything are. Refusing to allow policies that would improve the overall situation of all Americans, thus giving them incentive to work harder are.
You oppose any form of social assistance we have discussed, but don't acknowledge that working poor and underemployment is a major problem. If someone is on welfare, and would make less money working, why would they force their family to starve so that they could work? What could help this is education, but you are opposed to helping them get that. We could regulate businesses so that they don't hire only part time employees to avoid paying benefits, but you are opposed to that too. Your suggestion is to crush the poor with more taxes and reduce the tax load on those who wouldn't actually notice the difference. How do you think that is a solution?
You have asked several times if I believe in am unfair tax code, and I have answered you. Why should I repeat that taxing based on income bracket is not unfair if you haven't grasped it after I said it last time? Repetition accomplishes nothing, so please either learn how taxes work so we can discuss this properly or stop repeating questions I have already answered.
these are taxes on individuals, not corporations. so your analogy of companies moving away makes no sense. and if the company doesn't move then the salary is earned here and is taxable. what are you rambling on about?
again why do you avoid questions? I've asked you several times to say you believe in an unfair tax. do you, or do you not? do you want a fair or unfair tax?
states have tried to make a tax on the rich. they did this in Jersy and Maryland a few years ago. can you guess what happened? I'll give you a hint. Florida has no income tax.
maybe you missed this post so I'll repeat it. answer my question please.
did I ever say China isn't communist? no, I said it would be crazy for China not to want billion dollors companies, and money from the us.
"so why would we abandon what has worked for America for so long in favor of a flat tax?"
RED ALERT! RED ALERT! what we are doing isn't working! the economy is going DOWN!
we are TRILLIONS of dollors in debt! companies are LEAVING the US!
these facts are undebatable, stop debating them.
Alex, could you at least improve your literacy skills until you can respond to the comments provided rather than those you think give you a better position?
Do you deny that China is communist? Don't debate the undebatable. China's economy is doing well, that doesn't mean they have opened their borders to people trying to evade taxes. I will link a Quora topic about immigration into China. Please read up on it so that you have a basic understanding of what you are suggesting.
Could you do a modicum of research on flat taxes before trying again to get into this debate? Which nation do you suggest modelling America's tax system on Lithuania, Estonia, Albania, Hungary or the Czech Republic? None of the nations with flat tax seem to be world players or have amazing economies, so why would we abandon what has worked for America for so long in favor of a flat tax?
also some states have tried to make a tax on the rich. they did this in Jersy and Maryland a few years ago. can you guess what happened? I'll give you a hint. Florida has no income tax.
it's a fact that the US has lost money to china along with large companies. don't debate the undebatable.
the Chinese government doesn't want big companies with lots of money? this makes the Chinese economy stronger then America's.
again you believe in unfair tax. just admit it. making certain people pay more % is unfair, and a punishment. why not a fair flat tax?
What part of "those with the means to pay more in taxes should" seems like an unfair tax law? Would you care to explain where you got your expertise in tax law again or are you still convinced that a few pages is sufficient to spell out a legal code?
The fact that China is communist would be a big reason. Another would be the lack of ability to actually move there since just because you want to doesn't mean the Chinese government will let you.
so you believe in an unfair tax? ok. got it.
what does one do when they are being unfairly taxed, and there is a place where they can make more money? they would move to the place that will make them more money.
large companies leave the US to go to China. China is full of large companies. give me a logical reason why one would stay in a country and let the goverment unfairly tax them
There are several flaws in your analysis. The first is as historybuff says, taxing a few people with millions of dollars slightly more is not exactly punishing people for working hard. Firstly because they are not anywhere close to the hardest workers since most of their money comes from investment and inheritance and secondly because taxes are not punishment, they are a necessary evil of having a functional society.
Another problem with your idea is that moving to China is an absurd response. China is a communist nation, so good luck avoiding taxes by moving there.
If you make millions of dollars a year, you are better able pay taxes than someone who makes less than 15k. If someone is struggling to put food on the table, taxing them to death doesn't make sense. If someone is making more money than they could spend in several lifetimes, asking them to support the nation that allowed them to achieve that level of success is not unreasonable. I understand why those with wealth are opposed to being asked to do their share to support the nation, what I don't understand is why people like you agree with them.
you think that higher taxes on billionaires will make people not want to be rich? that is just stupid on the face of it. his plan wouldn't affect anyone with less than 3.5 million dollars (7 million if you're married). this law would effect 3 people in 1000 compared to 2 in 1000 affected by the current law. that means .1% more Americans will pay more taxes. and every one of them wealthy and able to pay it. my god, what a monster.
bernie has said he will give a heavy estate tax on the top .03%. only them, only the richest people. he will punish them for being rich. but let's say I'm in the top .03%. I'm moving to china where there is no heavy estate tax. sanders plan will push money out of america, and america will not be the country one wants to get rich and succeed in, then nobody will start a business hoping to make it big (American dream).
Who's he taking money from and how are they hard working
We don't "all know" he will punish people for working hard, so perhaps you could cite where you are getting this? You are putting words in his mouth and, when asked to show when he said it, you deflect. Are you basing your arguments on things he has said, or things his opponents have said about him (or just making them up based on a poor understanding of the economy)?
we do know that bernie will punish people for working hard and making money, so why think he will punish those who don't work. because those who are poor, lazy and don't work are the opposite of the rich, hardworking people bernie hates, and wants to punish.
Find me a quote from sanders that says he will put restrictions on unemployment handouts.
provide a reference for what you're saying. you keep saying that he wants to pay people to do nothing. you have yet to provide any proof or context to that statement. we can't debate based on what you say that he says.
so when sanders says he will take money from. hard working to give all poor people free stuff, he is lying?
Do you have a source for that? I mean they are and will be limits on unemployment benefits. Are you completely against any unemployment benifits? I agree with that people shouldnt get paid for doing nothing and never having to work, but i couldnt find where bernie proposed that.
sanders wants to give money to people who don't have jobs, people who never work, he will give money to someone who quits there job and does whatever all day. it's not a paid vacation cause the person has no job.
Oh ok. So you are against paid vacations? Hes saying workers who have been at their job for a year, deserve 2 weeks paid vacation. I dont think its unreasonable or lazy being off 2/52 weeks throughout the year.
e wants to give people who don't work the same as someone who works. that is what a paid vacation is, getting the same amount of money for not working, as for working
Wait so youre saying bernie is trying to give everyone pernament vacations?
ask someone "what would you rather do, sit behind a desk all day, or do whatever you do for fun?" I'm willing to bet that humans, when they have a choice will choose fun over work.
it's not sitting at home doing nothing, it's hanging out with friends, going on vacation, going to a baseball game, playing sports, stuff peopke do on a Saturday or day off. I think 90% of people (most likely more) like the weekend and days of.
Monday is a day hated by most people on america, Friday/Saturday is the most liked.
that's because most people don't like working all day, and would rather have fun.
I would hate sitting at home doing nothing, so even if I didn't have to work I would. The only potential exception would be if I stayed home to take care of my daughter, which I don't think is lazy so much as good parenting. My wife loves her job, and would do it even if the money were not needed as well.
That is why I wonder where exactly you get the idea that 90% of people would choose to sit home and do nothing. While I am sure those people do exist, I don't honestly think 90% of the population would want to.
as i said earlier- i'm sure 90% of Americans would not work if they would still get money. it's like a getting a paid vacation indefinitely.
in my case, my job is a bit different from a regular job, and I enjoy it. money isn't the only reason I'm at my current position. money isn't too important to me, but I don't believe it giving it to lazy bums, I like making money then donating it to a charity of my choice, not a freeloader living off of sanders or Obama.
what would you do if you had the choice?
Would you choose not to work given the option?
anyone want to continue this debate? I watched a sanders speech the other day and I need someone to tell me how sanders won't destroy the untied states of america.
i'm sure 90% of Americans would not work if they would still get money. it's like a getting a paid vacation indefinitely.
So what you are saying is that if you could get away with not working, you would?
love of money is bad. the working poor is a sad reality we have. you can't blame the working poor problem on only large businesses. I blame some of it on Obama.
the problem is with bernie socialism is that he doesn't only focus on the working poor, but the lazy poor. and what will these working poor do if they see people without a job getting enough money to live? quit, because low paying jobs Usally are not fun.
taking my money and giving it to the lazy does not solve the working poor problem, but will create a no working problem. with no people working the their will be no money for sanders to take. then everyone will be poor.
Because nothing is more unamerican than democratic control of society, right Alex?
I don't really agree with them about quite a few of their ideas, but you seem to have zeroed in on one of the most basic ways that America is being corrupted.
Wealthy people and businesses can destroy millions of lives to be able to squeeze out a few more dollars. Look at how many people are underemployed. These are people who want to work, but can't support their families doing so. Look at the nature of the work force. It used to be that families could live comfortably on a single income. This is no longer true for the majority of America. Large corporations do not care about America, or its people, since they aren't what drives them, the lust for money is.
They also want to basically control all large businesses. eliminate freedoms america was built on and make it so building a large business, spending time on it would be pointless. no reward, unless one likes his job, or something.
"no country has fully instituted democratic socialism"
this is I interesting website. these people seem to be under the false idea that most people want to work, and that making the successfull do dirty jobs is just.
Do everyone a favour and learn the distinctions between types of socialism. It will help you not make absurd claims like this. Might I suggest you start with social democracy, which is what Bernie Sanders actually supports? I will link the Wikipedia articles, but feel free to research yourself if you are concerned about the reliability of an open source encyclopedia.
it's the dictionary's definition, so now we know sanders has different definitions from the dictionary. are you sure we can trust this guy?
omg.... socialist does not have a single meaning. he calls himself a democratic socialist. that is a different form of socialism. he never claimed he was your defininition of a socialist.
hang on. not okay! that's not good if he says he is something he isn't.
so he's a liar. ok
then by that defininition he is not a socialist. he had never advocated for that.
a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies.
unless your smarter then the dictionary...
"I am a socialist and everyone knows that," -Sanders
what do you think socialism is? you throw that word around. then you say semi socialist. If you can see that distinction then you would know that Sanders is nowhere near the extreme end of the spectrum of socialism.
Sweden tried to be sanders socialist once they then drooped from 4th to 14th, realized true socialism is stupid and went to semi-socialism
not socialist contries. not close to what sanders wants. Sweden has wealthier people paying less taxes then wealthy people here do, and sanders wants to raise it even more!
not even remotely. by swedish or Canadian standards he is pretty centralist. he is not the kind of socialist you are describing.
one program does not mean socialism. Socialism is a lot of goverment programs that are socialists. tacking money away from the rich, having the successful have the same as the lazy. this is what sanders wants. this has never worked before. sanders wants complete socialism not just hints of it.
I'm guessing you have no idea what socialism is. you want examples of successful socialist countries? Denmark, Finland, Canada, Sweden, new Zealand, Belgium. just to name a few. socialism is in all modern states. you are 30 years behind the rest of the modern world. most of what sanders is calling for is considered obvious in many other successful countries.
I'm guessing 90% of democrats, especially young people have no idea what socialism actually is! if they did they would be insane to vote for it!
give me an example of a socialists country that is successful. good luck.
democrats like socialism cause it gives lazy bums who don't work the same money as hard working people. democrats like the easy way out, they don't want to work, and they want to feed of the goverment who gets its money from me.
No shit he's a socialist. 57% of democrats see socialism in a more favorable light than capitalism so the red scare bullshit isn't gonna work anymore
That has nothing to do with resolution
Wow. He did better than I thought. Did anyone else see that close 49 percent there. On a different note I was shocked to see that Cruz one for the GOP.
why do we want to be like Europe? i thought america was the best, most powerful country in the world. the things that makes america great is also what makes it different from Europe. we now can't see america to be better then a random European country?
The problem with sanders I'd he is a socialist. don't deny it he is one. no country has ever been socialist and been successfull! Bernie is getting young people's vote who are in student debt, because he is promising them that successfull people like me will pay for them to go to collage, fail of they want, get healthcare, get welfare. let's say someone votes for sanders and then becomes successfull. they will see him taking away their hard earned money. Bernie Is the opposite of the American dream and the opposite of capitalism that made this country once great!
with socialism it is impossible to become great, because if you become good bernie will take that good you did right out of your hands!
what do we want in our country, people who don't work because their get the same money anyway, or a country where if you work hard you can become great?
if want to become great, if you want to do something with your life, don't vote sanders, he won't let you excel.
he want to make things took euoropean country's over 60 years, what makes he think he can do it all in so short time without harm the economy?
If voter turnout is high bernie will win.