The debate "Besides God what other belief claims to be true in which there are no evidence for or against" was started by
April 14, 2016, 4:02 pm.
By the way, TripleBarrelBluff is disagreeing with this statement.
11 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 6 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
TripleBarrelBluff posted 23 arguments, RyanWakefield posted 3 arguments to the agreers part.
blanco posted 21 arguments, historybuff posted 1 argument, TripleBarrelBluff posted 4 arguments to the disagreers part.
Daniel0416, R_o_h_i_t, navin12, RyanWakefield, confident and 6 visitors agree.
TripleBarrelBluff, nurulnida09, Anjali, openparachute and 2 visitors disagree.
Order can not come out of chaos.
Thanks fellas for making realize the nature and strength of blind belief, rationality and reasoning is dismissive when it comes to atheism. Good luck, I hope you guys find the answer of something doesn't need something to come out of nothing.
Really? Youre still denying the idea of God is supernatural? Humans are not supernatural because we can observe and test humans so we do not fit the definition of supernatural. Is really that hard for you to undertand this?
"Firstly, that's exactly what I'm saying, we are living in a project to see who is worthy for the highest levels of paradise. "
Theres no evidence and no reasonable reason to believe any of that.
what makes God so necessary in the laws of nature.
I said "life" , are human beings supernatural because science how we are alive!? You ignoramus! use your brain, how old are you?
"Someone can say we were the result of a group science project. This idea has just as much evidence than your god. I mean not only you believe your god created us, you believe he guided the big bang for 14 billion years until humans evolved. Then it wanted humans to worship it and believe it exists while remaining invisible. This idea doesnt make any sense."
Firstly, that's exactly what I'm saying, we are living in a project to see who is worthy for the highest levels of paradise.
Secondly, the God didn't create the universe just for us, didn't you here we're not the center of the universe. You really are slow of understanding.
"The source of life itself is beyond scientific understanding, are human beings supernatural? "
No because we can observe humans . Dont be an idiot.
Someone can say we were the result of a group science project. This idea has just as much evidence than your god. I mean not only you believe your god created us, you believe he guided the big bang for 14 billion years until humans evolved. Then it wanted humans to worship it and believe it exists while remaining invisible. This idea doesnt make any sense.
I personally am fine and saying "i dont know" what happend before the big bang.
We can argue for days, but if your strong in your belief in that there isn't a Creator, then your faith will blind you from ever realizing the rational reason for everything is that it is created, and you'd stay stubborn and hard headed loyal to nonsensical argument of magical existence of the universe.
The source of life itself is beyond scientific understanding, are human beings supernatural?
"And again, you can make up any story before the big bang, and that story willl have just as much evidence as god."
No you can't, give me one example that doesn't imply the formation of the universe, that it magically came into existence.
No blanco. God if he existed, he is beyond our scientific understanding. We cant observe it or test it. He would in fact be supernatural by definition.
And again, you can make up any story before the big bang, and that story willl have just as much evidence as god.
Supernatural (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
God is not beyond scientific understanding,he apart of rationality which is apart of science, he created the laws of nature, he is apart of nature, with out him there is no laws no nature only chaos.
He is mind over matter, he willed the universe to come into existence in a process of evolution and order, obeying the laws of nature.
"can a book form and write itself?"
can an elephant fly?
no, so birds must not be able to fly.
it's the same logic
how is that similar to saying something can't create itself ?
"By your logic as well, a God has to have been created by something as well."
God is the one there's nothing before him he is immortal, ever lasting. Everything else dies, even planets and stars. And to ask who created the creator that created the universe, is itself an infinite question.
Yeah if the complexity of something can only be explained by having a maker, then god has to have a maker since its even more complex than our universe. . You cant just pick and choose where you apply your logic.
"there's no such thing as Supernatural, there is only natural" - blanco
Supernatural: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
By your logic as well, a God has to have been created by something as well.
"can a book form and write itself?"
can an elephant fly?
no, so birds must not be able to fly.
it's the same logic
I don't believe in real magic, magic is only an illusion, and there's no such thing as Supernatural, there is only natural.
Natural process of evolution in creation, (natural law) of the universe, natural development of species, natural disasters which is apart the process of life, a natural source for everything that is in existence, the natural creator of nature, THE GOD!
Use your brain and try to understand, stop being ignorant and dismissive and bring a good reason how could have someone known this?
Let me put it in a different way, is it matter over mind or mind over matter? Can a phone create itself? Can a book form and write itself? Use your brain, try to focus it becomes easy just try to open your mind. It's a matter of rationality, not deceiving yourself.
Just because you think its impossible doesnt mean you assume its god intervention . Theres literally zero evidence for anything supernatural. Let alone a personal one.
If a magician performed a trick i cant explain, I dont automatically assume its magic. I hold the same level of skepticism with any supernatural claim.
By your level of skepticism, if the trick cant be explained and you think it was impossible, assume its real magic.
Maybe your not conscious, maybe you think your in a physical realm, but in actuality your somewhere hooked up into a machine and programmed to dismiss anything that shows a reason that your created. How do you know that your aware? That your in reality? How are you sure of your own existence?
I'm saying it is impossible for someone to have known that without modern equipment you ignoramus, therefore must have been a divine revelation. And there are more other verses that explains the creation of the universe, and verses that explains the signs of levels of the human development stages in the embryo. And how it explains that the elements that humans are formed from are found in water and dust. And more....
"So many scientists that accepted this religion"
Truth is only less than one percent of all relative scientists are creationists. The rest use the scientific method to evaluate the evidence.
"no one could've have known these facts thousands of years ago. " This is an argument from ignorance. Youre saying because "you dont know" how this specific verse was written long ago( http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=51&verse=47 ), the only other possible explanation is supernatural intervention.
Isn't weird how it doesn't though, I mean Jews know about Adam and eve yet heaven is not mentioned.
I know it doesn't, it speaks of more of a cosmos, but gehinnim is hell.
It never speaks of heaven Blanco.
Science and rational thoughts has proven it to be sufficient evidence on the count that no one could've have known these facts thousands of years ago. Their are so many scientists that have accepted this religion because of this.
TZW, the Tanakh doesn't speak of Gehinnim?
I meant heaven not hell, but I don't believe in hell either. the Tanakh (original old testimonials) never speak of it either.
I don't believe in hell in fact the Tanakh never speaks of it that's christians (Not poking at christians) For me you live life for G-d because he deserves it. Science doesn't disprove him, or approve him. You just give him respect. I don't think anyone should be "good" for this place in the sky. I think people should be good because it's right. That's why I hold dear to people with religion. Even if it defers from mine I know it's dear to them. I will never badger a person's belief because they have it for a reason. Just be good and tolerant. Hatikvah is upon us.
I agree with some of that. Out of all the lables out there, i would consider myself a humanist.
But there are a many problems I have with religion so ill just list a few.
1. The idea that every human born is with this curse or orginal sin. And the only cure is to believe and worship an invisible being. Its just a bad idea.
2.Teaching kids if their bad they will go to hell for all eternity. In my opinion, this should be considered mental child abuse.
3. Most religious people (not all) tend to change reality to fit their belief when it should be the other way around.
But I mainly judge someone not based their beliefs but based on their intentions and whether or not there an ******
I have no discrepancies with science nor religion I wish the two would coexist rather then badger the other. great people come from both.
Truth be told heaven is found in others (I don't believe in heaven the Torah never speaks of it) For me you live life for G-d because he deserves it, that alone creates tension in religion. Just don't want to see religion stop because of science or science because of religon.
I understand my people have gone to conflict with muslims since muslims existed but I have good muslims, good christians, good Buddhist, good atheist. It's best to accept all of them. I trust in people before gating them. To see the difference in them is tough I wish all mankind had the same idea.
"Yeah , it's not sufficient evidence for someone ignorant, but those of intellect its more than enough"
Its not sufficient evidence for anyone who uses the scientific method to confirm its validity, but those who are gullible its more than enough.
Yeah , it's not sufficient evidence for someone ignorant, but those of intellect its more than enough.
And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people believed," they say, "should we believe as the foolish have believed? " unquestionably, it is they who are foolish, but they know it not.
I just worded it differently. Its still the same statement.
Every idea and claim deserves the same level of scrutiny as everything else; even if people become emotionally attached to their idea.
No, but that's not what you said. Say what you are trying to say instead of leaving out points.
The point was just because something cant be disproven, doesnt make it any more true than vampires or werewolves. Do you disagree with that?
Other people do, so why disregard people's ideas and throw them out like trash? There's one thing to say I don't believe in that here's why, and why do you? It's another to say what a person believes in is equivalent to a twilight novel. If you would have just posted facts that support your side instead of adding in little jabs as well it can be understandable but you took it a step farther and attacked religion.
I only compared god to werewolves and vampires as they are on the same level of evidence for their existence.
For me, i dont accept any extraordinary claims witbout sufficient evidence. And a book written in the middle east thousands of years ago is not sufficient proof for the existence of God
You know I was right to call tripleretard, you should change your username to that.
It does, you just to ignorant to realize that sweety
"God along with werewolves and vampires cannot be disproven. Go on. Try it."
That's disrespectful to a religion compare what people will die for to werewolves and vampires.
When exactly have i been disrespectful? My claim is there are no evidence for or agianst the existence of god. If someone wants to believe in one, thats fine. Doesnt mean i have to. or anyone else. There are people like blanco who think an ancient book proves a god created the universe.
First off how you say things mean a lot. You are trying to belittle Blanco for his beliefs. You aren't just pointing facts out bit criticizing him for his beliefs. You have an upmost disregard for anyone's belief that contradicts yours. You ate saying theories are based on facts when theories are based on presumptions which is a synonym for opinion. Then you badger everyone who states their opinion with an opinion. If somebody believes in a divine being you do have any baking to say there isn't one. You just have an opinion.
I enjoy science and learning about it but when it come to religion and science, people refuse to say yes the two can coexist. Religion throws out scriptures just as science throws out theories. Saying somebody is insane for saying that the Lord speaks with them is threatening to religions.
What? stop being an ignoramus! this verse and so many other verses like it, that is impossible for someone to have known or come up with are Revelations from God.
See you're not interested in finding the truth, so make up excuses that don't make sense to satisfy your desires to proceed living a life that is a lie.
One of the reasons the middle east hates us is because of our disregard to their religion, and culture. We are the "stupid tourist" that showed up not caring about them or beliefs. The longer we ignore the fact that people have different beliefs and ideas the longer we will face tensions in the world. People have killed and died over religion which you may think is stupid, but to them it's not. It's powerful and part of their everyday life. It's part of them, their family, their friends, and their children. For you to sit and say it's all stupid is insulting to those people, their family, their friends, their children, and their ancestors.
To tell a man he dies for nothing is high disregard for any respect for anyone. You can't say it's not. You probably even have family who stood up for religion and held it dear, but you won't tell them their beliefs are worthless and what they hold meaning to is meaningless. Why tell anyone else that?
Joe: "I know a god exists "
Bob: " I dont believe you"
So youre saying in this exchange, bob is a racist?
Ohh the truee translation . none of those false ones lol
and like that has nothing to with the claim " god created the universe" You can use this to the claim " someone thousands of years knew the universe is expanding. just because you dont know how someone could of written this verse doesnt mean you just assume they knew due to supernatural intervention. Thats silly
No there isn't, ask a Muslim. Don't lie to yourself to justify it. Religion has faced the same prejudice as race.
There's a difference between being a racist and criticizing an idea.
That's a whole different verse, sweet heart.
And the trure translation is universe, the unseen skies, the cosmos.
Heres the verse. : "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are its expander" and you understood this passage as the universe is expanding? Son
I have a whole lot, but that verse alone should have been sufficient, you comparing cartoons that controlled by the people who planed those events, with something like this shows you to be ignorant and not worth the time.
They're not calling G-d up on the phone asking him if he wants to chill at the bar. It's typically a one time occurrence.
You do know your stand point on hating religion is that of a racist hating blacks or Mexicans right? If somebody believes in something you won't alter it, look at why we have terrorist and look at why the middle east hates us. People like you is one reason terrorism will always exist, the same can be said for the people who are over religious though. I mean it's cool you can say theories which are ideas, but that's the same as religion. We don't know so why try to tell somebody they are wrong?
"The God says that he created the demons and humans to worship that is their purpose" . many people in our history and even still today claim they can hear gods voice. And that voice almost alway agrees with that persons own desires. Luckily we have hospitals for people who hear voices now.
Isnt that verse referring to heaven? In any case, it still doesnt prove god created the universe. Im more impressed with the simpsons predicting specific events in the future, doesnt mean the creators of the show are gods.
What else you got?
The reason someone dismisses an argument is either or, that individual finds it to be acceptable and a rational argument, so there no reason to respond, or the individual doesn't have enough to respond. And I was trying to make sure my statements were read.
And the foundation of those ancient religion are similar including religions of ancient Egypt. Now not forcing my by beliefs on no-one I'm simply stayed in my argument on the topic.
instead of bestowing the same intolerance that those who have prejudice against homosexuality, gender, and race why not just accept people have different beliefs then you?
please don't copy and paste your arguments. if we dismissed them the first time we're not going to like them better verbatim a second time. the fact that humans needed s comforting idea of a god does not provide evidence for God's existence. every religion is different. I'd anything that is evidence against God because if he was inspiring these religions then they would be alot more similar. Buddhism, Shinto, and Christianity and not very similar. these were not all inspired by the same god.
Historical evidence, you will find throughout history no civilization is without worship of deity, that is the nature of human beings and our purpose. And also you will find the same message in different religions being repeated, it's undeniable that this message repeats through history for a reason. Islam have came with the answer to why is this? The God says that he created the demons and humans to worship that is their purpose. And he also says that he have send messages to every nation carrying same message, submission him alone, submission is Islam in Arabic, and that is the reason we see the same message repeating. Scientific signs of evidence, would someone who lived thousands of years ago have known that the universe is expanding without modern equipment, like the Hubble telescope? No, it is impossible to have known this simply by observing the skies with the naked eye. The quran have explained this, and people thousands of years before the invention of the Hubble telescope. The Creator says:
And it is We Who have constructed the universe with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
unicorns, mermaids, santa clause and satan.
if a child says that he is hearing voices and they tell him to burn things should we just accept it? there is no proof it isn't God telling him things. but that kid is going to burn things down if you don't get him help. religion starts fires on a planetary scale. why would we accept that religion is valid when there is no evidence to support it and it causes so many problems?
Disprove me first you already gave a wrong definition.
Well first of all, when did i say that? Second, God along with werewolves and vampires cannot be disproven. Go on. Try it.
God is part of a long list of fiction that has no proof for or against it. Until we can prove it, it will remain part of that list.
Science doesn't know everything about how the universe is created, and religion doesn't have the facts to support what they say. So instead of having religious intolerance or scientific intolerance we should allow the 2 to coexist together. Instead of belittling or badgering either.
"No proof FOR or AGAINST G-d" What's the second thing you said? No proof against G-d. I understand the former of the statement. You can't prove it wrong so why tell somebody their beliefs aren't real?
ok. ST: A well substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.
My argument is theres no proof for or against the existence of God. If you disagree then explain why.
You look up scientific theory then look up the word propositions in the definition of it. After you have done that support your argument with showing the other universe(s) that science has studied since the beginning of their creation.
Look up scientific theory. Science doesnt care about anybodys belief, it only cares about the evidence. Thats different then religion.
Theory - an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
per Websters Dictionary
So you use ideas to prove science exist while worshipers use ideas to prove G-d exist.
I'm the only person and you are all part of my imagination
A man living in a time without education i would consider more ignorant about the natural world then anyone with a basic education. You disagree?
I admit i am ignorant to many things as is science. Everyone is to some degree.
Well you only gave one argument which i explained gets us nowhere.
So you whats your next best argument on how you "know" your religious god created the universe?
We are just an experiment of extraterrestrial ,aliens made us and place us on earth so aliens is our god
Truth is, not everyone who believes in science denounces G-d and not everyone who believes in G-d denounces science. To denounce either means you are ignorant and have intolerance of other people.
No, I don't just believe he created us , I know he created us. And I agree that some children are less ignorant then some men, not alone thousands of years ago , but also in our present day, like yourself for instance.
And a man creating a religion shouldn't be considered ignorant considering the situation his people was in.
Any third grader with a basic understanding of science is less ignorant about our world then men thousands of years ago. You accept that every other religion were man made except for yours.
"I know God created us" No. you want to believe he created us. Theres a difference. And every other religion believes and says the same thing.
religion was created by man. Do you doubt that?
And there is historical evidence and scripture evidence base on science that is impossible for someone to have known thousands of years ago.
"Religion were created by ignorant men. "
I bet that your way way more ignorant then any of those men, why would a person create a religion in those times?
As i stated, theres no evidence for or against the existence of God. You used an argument in which you can substitute "God" with literally any story you like. This gets us nowhere.
Religion were created by ignorant men. Cant blame them. But weve come a long way in basic understanding of our natural world and our universe since religion books were written.
I can't say that because I'd be lying, I know God created the universe.
So youre just labeling whatever caused the big bang god? Why not just say we dont know yet?
That is the point, that what ever cause the existence of everything is the creator of everything. What is it that you want evidence for? whos religion is the right one?
My point is you can come up with any story you want before the big bang; and that story will have just as much evidence as "god"
And that someone is our creator, doesn't how you use it creator is the outcome.
I can use that same argument to claim we are the result of someones science project.
Mind over matter, energy and matter and space and time didn't exist before the big bang, therefore mind had to exist to bring about the creation of everything that exists.
What evidence you think supports the existence of your god? or any god?
no. there is absolutely no credible evidence to support God. only old books and biased "witness" accounts.
there is evidence of God. check all your sources before automatically assuming things please