The debate "Boarder Wall for the US is vital to the US security and economic stability" was started by
June 20, 2018, 11:22 pm.
23 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 16 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
Drakgo posted 6 arguments, bae_jil_dong posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 3 arguments, Nemiroff posted 4 arguments, luc45 posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
RealCaffNasty, Drakgo, mlowe, bae_jil_dong, Nemiroff, Andji, DrMrDaniel, SMNR and 15 visitors agree.
historybuff, Yannis, luc45 and 13 visitors disagree.
why do you want to spend all this money on building a wall which people will find a way through when we don't even have free healthcare yet?
I do agree that we need to do what's best for our citizens as our primary concern. however for that we need to:
1. actually take care of our citizens, including health and education. we need to provide up to associates level for all, trade school for those who cant, just like we provide high school. our outrageous education and medical costs are insane even compared to the rest of the 1st world and are not from natural market forces.
2. encourage migration of low skilled workers to fill the gap. they do not benefit from social security and similar programs but do pay taxes for them which will help fund these programs for citizens. migrants commit less crimes and should be deported if they do, (like the deporter in chief), not people checking in at court or dropping kids of at school (monstrous)
the right is great at identifying problems, I agree with many of them. but their solutions suck, are counterproductive, and their leadership are screwing them for their own self gain (at your expense)
3. stop competing with 3rd world countries over manufacturing. most iPhones are built abroad, who cares? most of the profits go to the richest company on earth, apple, an american company. your leaders are just distracting you.
the factories are already coming back, along with automation and 0 jobs. lol
stop looking backwards and let's do what we must to position ourselves for future dominance.
1. illegal immigration has been dropping for years. these asylum seekers are neither migrants nor illegal. there is no such thing as illegal asylum seeking.
3. illegals almost all come legally and just popdon't leave. a wall wont stop that. Mexicans are currently moving back to Mexico. the current border crossings are not mexican citizens. migrants create work and dont get any of the benefits of a citizen.
4. the best solution for security and the illegal immigration problem is to have a more sensible legal immigration so people dont have to come illegally. then we can really militarize the border because the only people coming across will be the smugglers, etc.
5. immigrants are good for an economy, especially an economy that has both decreased birth rates (like every advanced country) and an impending mass retirement of baby boomers (extra problem just for US). It does hurt low skill workers... which is why we should be investing in our people so that they arent low skilled... like most industrial countries. unfortunately the right has a dream of competing with the 3rd world for factory jobs instead of moving forward.
1. Urgency? Illegal immigrants have entered the U.S for a good number of years. Restricting the border isn't working and this is the only solution. The current status quo isn't enough and this will continue if the wall isn't exist.
2. This will cover up the weak spots because it is very unlikely to smash a wall rather than metal fences. So, the access will be limited and the weak spots are covered up so it is more controllable.
3. Why is it justify? This is the step from the U.S government because these illegal immigrants enter the U.S easily (the fact that there are a huge number of them, it must be easy). We don't want them to steal job opportunities or anything from the U.S and it is the job of the U.S government to make sure the rights and priveleges of the
U.S citizens aren't being acquired by
non-U.S citizens. As the Mexico government takes no action about their "bad citizens", the U.S should takes the action then.
4. Security-wise, if the access to enter the U.S is very easy for these illegal immigrants, so it is also very easy for drugs and weapons smugglers which will be an internal security threat for the U.S. These will be the perfect scenario for big mafias, robber, drug dealers, etc as they can have these drugs and weapons relatively easier and cheaper.
5. Economic-wise, if the access to enter the U.S is very easy for these illegal immigrants, they'll steal many job opportunities and it may effect the U.S citizens welfare. This will also create an unhealthy competition of low-skilled workers because the local citizens salary is relatively higher.
and just to clarify, we dont know anything about you. in this example we are substituting you for average american joe, and then contrasting that with the average migrant. we arent trying to say anything about you personally, but just contrasting citizen vs migrant in general.
Just to clarify, I meant imigrants contribute the same amount you do, but since you qualify for lots of benefits and they don't, they are contributing the same but getting less in return. therefore they are providing a larger net contribution than actual American citizens.
they also commit way less crimes than American citizens too, so that's even more they contribute than the average American.
people are a very valuable resource, they contribute to an economy that is not hostile to them.
they also do not get welfare and should not get welfare. welfare should be only for citizens, while migrants pay all the same taxes but get significantly less benefits from them. that a plus for the test of us.
as to walls, any success you will find was not against migrants, but armies. smugglers and migrants have always found ways around walls in the rare cases they were even blocked, which they were usually not.
large armies with horses and gear cannot sneak past a wall, a few people can easily do it.
also even against armies walls became useless since cannons came around. (that's why we only see them around ancient relics). the wall of china is an ancient relic and was not meant to stop people, it was meant to stop mongol armies
unless your in a high value career, and illegal immigrant does not contribute more then you, he contributes exactly the same as you.
as to that list, half of it is caused by our own policies, not the immigrants, and the other half is wrong. like they get no welfare. you posted a fact check site, but did you even look at the actual fact check?
How does an illegal imagrant contribute more than I?
The more a job is in demand the more an employer is willing to pay. It's basic economics.
Ask Chinese historians on the wall. It was vital part of their history. And the point of the wall is it's effective. And the wall will be manned.
America spends at least 10.4 billion dollars on illegal immigration.
they got invaded past that wall all the time. 2 "Chinese" Dynasties were founded by attackers from beyond that wall. unless you want a Mexican emperor of America, that isn't a comparison you want to make.
labor is good for an economy. it produces more demand for goods, generates more taxes and everyone is better off. since they are illegal and don't qualify for federal assistance they are contributing without getting much back. they are doing more for your country than you are.
it isn't stealing jobs, it's creating them. your money isn't funding them, but it certainly would be funding the billions for a useless wall which is definitely a waste of money. and they are generating tax dollars. so what exactly is your problem?
If you look at Chinese history, the wall was very effective. In fact they rebuild, expanded and upgraded the wall throughout it's history. The reason the wall is still around is because of it's success for the Chinese, especially against the Mongolians. Research the history.
Farming isn't the only job's being taken. Regular minimum wage Jobs are being taken aswell. Until immigrantion enforcement,(fact) illegal immigrants are exempt from US judicial judgement, and can acquire a id to work, or were able to work under the table.
Also children born in US are now US citizens. Which leads to family separation.
Think about it, either you have millions of homeless immigrants, the government is paying for them, which is around a billion dollars, or they are working in the economy. They are undocumented.
(Fact)Billions of tax dollars are going to undocumented illegal immigrants. plus those who are getting paid and sending money to other countries.
I don't want my money going to illegal immigrants. I think it's a waste of money.
Immigrants coming to seek protection is different.
Children forced to come to boarders by cartels are different, they need help.
Everyone else, is stealing jobs and wasting tax dollars.
which walls were successful exactly? the wall of China was very unsuccessful. it did not do a good job of keeping China's neighbors out.
why would you think it would work? anyone with a ladder or a rope will go over the wall in minutes. anyone who is moving millions in drugs can build a tunnel under it. walls are not an effective solution. and as I've stated, the large majority of illegal imigrants come through a port on entry, so a wall is literally useless.
explain to me how having people picking fruit for low wages affects the middle class negatively? do you think that would be a middle class job if it weren't for immigrats? because it wouldn't be. but costs for food would be higher making it harder for the middle class to feed their families. at a time of low unemployment your anti imigrantion rhetoric is nonsense.
Walls throughout history have proven to be effective in other countries to keep out foreigners.
Name one wall that wasn't. Than tell me where your data comes from that the wall would not work.
90% of heroin that comes in through Mexico. The US has a drug epidemic. To blame the US for the drug epidemic to justify open boarders is appalling and reprehensible. The rapes and murders by illegal immigrants that are criminals are horrible. What is worse, it's catch and release because states let them go. But if you are black you get shot or killed, even put in prison for false or misdemeanor charges.
Boarder security is important, because it's also ruining the US economy. how can the middle class get higher wages when people continue to come into this country illegally?
Your argument isn't logical. No one is arguing that there should be no border security. we're arguing that a wall would be completely ineffective and really expensive. It also wouldn't address most of the problem anyway since that isn't where most people enter illegally. it is a complete waste of billions that could be better spent.
And yes, absolutely I think losing one life is not worth spending billions of dollars on a useless solution. if this was actually about saving lives you would be advocating for programs to stop smoking (kills about 435,000 Americans), to combat obesity (kills 111,000 Americans) or banning guns (kills 32,000 Americans). billions of dollars could save alot of lives in programs to address those issues. but you want to flush that money by putting a useless wall in the middle of nowhere.
Who is more important, the safety of the US or foreign people of this country?
To say this isn't my country is irrelevant, I lived here all my life. I believe my family comes before a foreigner. If my state has highest taxes, highest poverty, and unemployment, crimes are high. How is the government spending 100s of billions of dollars to house illegal immigrants? We have homeless and mentally ill and poverty stricken families in the US ignored for the sake of strangers that Mexico don't want and don't help the US with.
So what you are saying is if someone is breaking into someone's home, don't try to stop them because they are just going to keep doing it?
Your logic is pointless. The wall is going to be secured with men guarding it with cameras. There will be points of entry controlling who comes in.
Do you think one American Life losed to an illegal imagrant is not significant enough to build a wall to filter out who comes in to the US? And to keep out who we deport.
the vast majority of people who enter the US illegally do it at a port of entry, they don't wander through a desert. so in most cases a wall is completely useless waste of money.
those that do cross that way are probably smart enough to get past a wall. to paraphrase something I read, all you do by building a 10 foot wall is increase demand for an 11 foot ladder. so in pretty much all cases, a wall is a massive waste of money. it's sole purpose is to be a dog whistle for racists or uninformed people who hate imigrants.
Without a strong boarder security, criminals and undocumented immigrants will enter the US. this will continue to keep minimum wage down and allow human trafficking and drugs continue to be brought into the US.