The debate "Brother's and Sister's I invite you to question Islam and I'll answer you In Sha Allah. NoAdHominem" was started by
August 9, 2019, 1:05 pm.
5 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 15 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
Edmqnd posted 11 arguments, Nemiroff posted 5 arguments to the agreers part.
Edmqnd posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
Nemiroff, Edmqnd and 3 visitors agree.
Jane and 14 visitors disagree.
if you can present that this was acceptable behavior of the era then his actions would be understandable in context... but it is still disgusting from a modern perspective.
i dont care what 1 person said about his friend. many vain leaders and high society socialites surround themselves with people who tell them they are the greatest. it doesnt matter. how many people did abu bakhar compare muhammed to? did he have internet or extensive historic data as we do today? did he know anyone from china? americas? australia? europe? africa? at best abu bakhar would be able to say that muhammed is the greatest man to walk that local area at that specific time. you rely far to blindly on anecdotes and limited claims.
what we have established is that she was forced into a marriage with no comprehension of what she was getting into, and then after being raised by her husband from childhood, she is supposed to say no to him at 9? once again, do you understand the definition of coersion? just because someone says yes does not mean it was a free decision. especially when they are children.
no, claiming she was post pubescent is the nonsense. although in some extremely rare cases, girls may hit puberty at 9 today, that is a consequence of modern nutrition and hormones in food/water. it did not happen a thousand years ago, much less in the small tribal communities of the region.
I know she was 6 years old and probably wouldn't have known or comprehended what marriage could've done to her but her parents knew, Abu bakr was a close friend to Muhammed (SAW) and he knew he was the greatest man to ever walk this earth. And you say consequences do you mean that as hypothetically or that there was consequences, if you mean there were consequences bring forth your evidence.
The point is yes she married at 6 but the problem everyone has it that they had sexual intercourse at the age of 9 and you (plural) claiming she was pubescent is utter nonsense.
you seem very impassioned so i will slow this down to 1 point at a time.
she was not 9 when she married, she was 6. what amount of maturity does a 6 year old have that allows her to perceive the life long consequences of her marriage decision?
Nemiroff, "no would mean defying her husband" That's totally wrong, no would mean disagreeing to the marriage not defying her husband like the Prophet's some kind of mad man that kills everyone defying him! None of you arguing against the marriage of Aisha at this debate has brought any evidence from Islamic literature, documents at the time, documents from around the place concerning what happened or anything for that matter, it's all your subjectivity that's saying it was wrong because "She was young, Muhammed was a pedophile and etc" BRING YOUR EVIDENCE.
1: Again she was not prepubescent that's your claim without any evidence to support, he waited three years, quran 4:6 and quran 24:59, read.
2: You gave me theories with nothing to substantiate them with, every record and document agrees with me, "They probably changed the documents" Bring your evidence, this topic is about to question Islam so you come with your claims and I'm inviting you to make them but come on substanting claims is obviously needed when debating.
3: That isn't a logical comparison just a false analogy, a 9 year old at the time and under those circumstances are much more closer to puberty then a 4 year old, come on you know this brother dont pretend it's the same thing.
"That doesn't really have any bearing on what Muhammeddid to her as a child" Again we don't believe she was a child but rather ready for sexual intercourse which a child is not. And if you believe The prophet mistreated her, abused, her used her for sex or something else bring forth your evidence.
I told you that's what philosopher Montesquieu said and either way even if that did effect her or not she was still according to our belief not pubescent.
This whole debate you have brought forth nothing about the prophet or aisha, nothing to support your argument.
Nemiroff that's a false analogy because at 9 she was mentally, spiritually and physically ready according to what we believe and I used that 3 year wait to show that the prophet waited for her to get ready for consummation and the reason to why that's a false analogy is because a 6 year old was not mentally, spiritually and physically ready for consummation but a 9 year old was so that comparision is ridiculous to make.
And again she was a strong women and could've said no, even if we suppose she couldn't do it at such a young age she could've done it at an older age for example when she went into war. And I challenge you to show me a single piece of islamic literature where the prophet in some way mistreated Aisha since you bring up the history of the arabs. There was no mistreatment, our prophet is the greatest man to walk this earth. Before islam came arabs would bury there daughters alive because of the shame they felt but Islam came to end that and bring equality, women got to own land, inherit money, a right to divorce and etc.
And again if you think just because arabs had that culture the prophet must've had it too bring a shred of evidence where the prophet mistreated her, abused her or used her for sex as this gentleman probably believes claiming he was a pedophile!
the early period is a modern day number due to abdundant nutrition and hormone additives that did not exist back then, particularly in tribal desert communities.
furthermore i underestimated this situation in my post. she was not 9 when she agreed to marriage, she was 6. well below even the loose definition of maturity used here. as for sex, saying no would mean defying her husband, a no no everywhere until very recently. much less a husband who literally raised her for most of her aware life.
to be honest your defense of him having sex with a 9 year old by pointing out he didn't have sex with a 6 year old, is like defending someone having sex with a 6 year old by saying he didn't have sex with a newborn. having sex with a 9 year old is objectively disgusting whether or not something even more disgusting is possible.
historically speaking women never had a voice, whether it was Arab or white cultures. especially Back then they weren't allowed to question the decisions of their family.
have you ever heard of the term coersion? we have a child who by saying no would go against her elders and a female who would go against her patriarchs. i cant speak to her personal case, but as a woman anywhere in the world during that time period, saying no, would have brought disgrace to her family, and possibly a honor killing on herself.
1) I don't understand your objection. 9 year olds are prepubescent. That is a biological fact. The average age for a girl to have her 1st period is 12.5. With rare cases (2%) as young as 10. A 9 year old will not have had her period yet. She is pre-pubescent. So Aisha was almost certainly pre-pubescent at the time Mohammad had sex with her. This is biology. Just because someone who wanted to make Mohammad sound like he wasn't a pedophile writes otherwise doesn't change reality.
2) you throw out weak defenses, then expect me to provide written documents to disprove your weak defense? That is a bad faith argument. You asked me to explain why he didn't have sex with her when she was 6 but have sex with her when she was 9. I gave you 2 very logical reasons why he would do that.
3) waiting 3 years doesn't prove anything. That logic doesn't even make sense. If he married her when she was 1 but waited 3 years to have sex with her would that be evidence she was ready to have sex at 4? I have already given you 2 reasons why he might have done this and still have been having sex with a pre-pubescent child.
What in that wiki article is supposed to be useful for this discussion. She grew up to become become someone powerful. But most of that was after Mohammad's death. That doesn't really have any bearing on what Mohammad did to her as a child.
There is no evidence that warmer climates have any effect on puberty. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. The average age of a 1st period in England is 12.5. In Canada it is 12.7. In Istanbul it is 12.7. In China it is 12.5.
The age has actually been going down in the last few decades as nutrition and medical care of children improved. There is virtually no chance that Aisha had begun menstruating when Mohammad had sex with her. He is a pedophile.
1: That's a false analogy why are you putting words in my mouth for? You haven't brought up a single line of evidence to support what you're saying, "She was pubescent" you just keep on repeating that but every document we have shows that she was ready and I wont continue to repeat myself, bring some evidence except for your emotional assumptions.
2: Again you have brought nothing except for your theories, nothing to substantiate them. BRING EVIDENCE!
3: Again I told you the prophet waited three years for Aisha to get mentally, spiritually and physically ready. That's evidence number 1, evidence number two: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha Read that and you'll see how powerful of a woman she is.
Evidence 3: Montesquieu proved that people living in warmer climates at the time aged faster.
Again you have brought nothing to the table except for emotional beliefs that dont fit your narrative. Stop repeating the same nonsense if you can't support it.
1) by your definition if you believe that a 5 year old is an adult, then you aren't a pedophile for having sex with them. That argument makes no sense. a 9 year old is pre-pubescent. girls in that period of history started puberty around 12. So Aisha was, by any definition not written by someone defending a pedophile, a child.
2) Pedophiles often have specific ages at which they prefer their victims to be. Maybe Mohammad was just attracted to her at 9 but he wasn't at 6. Maybe he knew that if he had sex with a 6 year old it would be impossible to defend and it would undermine his credibility. If he waited till she was 9 people like you would try to defend his pedophilia and he could get away with it.
3) you keep saying she was mature and she was ready. How do you know that? I mean really, i want to know what source you use to make that determination.
4) you have no record of someone being upset that he was having sex with a child. But you are talking about events that happened over 1000 years ago. We are missing alot of information. The vast majority of documents that have existed in history have been lost. We only have a tiny fraction of them today. And the fraction that survived are usually the ones that rich and powerful people wanted to survive, as they could pay to have them copied and preserved. The ruling elite of the Caliphate wouldn't want to undermine the legacy of Mohammad as they ruled over that legacy. They had no motivation to preserve documents that questioned the legitimacy of Mohammad. Therefore such documents would not survive. The abuse suffered by Mohammad likely served a purpose in the record. It shows how he overcame such resistance and went on to bring the word of god, or some such nonsense. It is a part of the story that is useful. Mohammad committing a terrible crime against children does not help to maintain that legacy.
5) Could you please provide me with a reference to the documents? You say they are narrated by Aisha. I would like to look into them. You are asking me to bring empirical evidence about events that happened about 1500 years ago. Any documents that existed would then have been in the hands of people who would not want them to exist for generation after generation. You take it as an article of faith that documents that likely highly biased are completely accurate. You use that faith to override the reality. Your prophet had sex with a child.
1: First of all you dont know the definition of "pedophilia", it's when you're attracted to children when you yourself is not a child. and we believe that Aisha wasn't a child, rather she was mentally, spiritually and physically ready for consummation.
2: The evidence is that The prophet married her at 6 and consummated the marriage at 9, so why did he wait 3 years? Was he drinking tea or something all that time? no he was waiting for her to get mentally, physically and spiritually ready.
3: I never said she was fully developed, I said she wasn't a child anymore and was ready for consummation. A person is never fully developed until the age of 40. And again she was mature by all of these standards and ready for sexual intercourse.
4: People attacked the prophet verbally, they tortured the prophet and we have records and documents of them doing so, the documents did survive you're just chatting nonsense. no one attacked him because of the age of the person he married no one did so until 1905. Are you really saying you believe many people attacked him on the marriage of Aisha but none of those documents survived? That's a stupid Theory. You're saying that the caliphate would have excluded everything that could potentially offend them or hurt there reputation, then why didn't they discard all the verbal abuses that he got? Its again a stupid claim with no empirical evidence.
5: That's actually not true, the documents about Aisha was mainly narrated by Aisha, now you might say "it says narrated by Aisha but it wasn't really her" but then again all the historical documents go against and not a single one with you. And of course it wouldn't go well for me in a court of law if I said that because we live in a time where that's strange. You have not brought anything to the table except for subjective beliefs, next time bring empirical evidence.
as our life expectancy continues to increase I see no problem with pushing back both adulthood and retirement
While true, it's unrealistic to withhold adult matters until people are 25.
scientifically speaking, we finish developing at approximately 25 years old. and the last part to develop is the most important, the brain.
1) ok so I agree that it was normal for a 12 year old to marry. a 9 year old is not 12. That is significantly younger. So I am not aware of any culture where having sex with a 9 year old was ok. Having sex with a 9 year is pedophilia.
2) There is no evidence that Aisha had gone through puberty. So even if I accepted that puberty makes someone an adult, which I do not, then it still wouldn't be a valid argument as there is no evidence Aisha had. 9 year olds typically are pre-pubescent. Unless there is evidence that this specific case was different that most other cases, it is safe to assume she was pre-pubescent as well.
3) no a 9 year old is not mature. Puberty is the point in a child's life where their body starts to prepare them for adulthood. It is the start of the process, not the completion of it. A 9 year old is not physically or mentally mature by any reasonable standard.
4) most of the world didn't know who Mohammad was. Even if they did they wouldn't have known who he married. The vast majority of people who would know any kind of details about Mohammad's life in the few generations following his death would be those inside the caliphate. Which means that the Caliphs would have control over everyone who might have written down anything about Mohammad. And the Caliphs would not have wanted anyone inside their borders writing bad things about their prophet. Also we need to account for the fact that written records don't survive unless people make copies of them. If the Caliphs didn't want specific things to be copied then they would decay and be lost. So even if lots of people thought it was morally wrong to molest a 9 year old, it is entirely plausible that there would be no written record of it.
5) how could you possibly know what aisha wanted? All written accounts of her are likely written by men who were followers of Mohammad. If he had forcibly married and raped her it is unlikely that story would have been written down. All the accounts you have access to are written by men who had reason to write down a version that made Mohammad look good. And again, what aisha wanted isn't particularly important. She was a child and not capable of making choices for herself. If you try to tell a court that you had sex with a 9 year old but it's fine because she was ok with it, you see how far that explanation gets you.
1: You yourself said that a quick search showed you 12 years old Marry so I believe the real problem is what's the definition of adulthood? I believe that when women have there period they are adults and when men start to ejaculate they are adults.
2: you said 9 years old is pubescent, i showed you what the French philosopher said and he might be wrong but how come The prophet (SAW) waited three years and consummated the marriage at 9 and not at 6 if he now was a pedophile? because she was not physically, mentally or spiritually ready. and you say that like science has proven it's impossible to enter puberty at 9 when it's not depending on many factors one which could be climate.
3: Yes she was mature and my arguments for that is all if the above.
4: Perhaps but I believe that's a very weak argument because that means the caliphate controlled all of earth, the whole planet and could stop people from speaking against from all over the world and believe me they did not have the power and that argument is also flawed because people tried to kill the prophet (SAW), they tortured him and verbally abused him, they weren't afraid they would be killed so why not throw a tantrum of him marrying a six year old because it was normal, brother this argument is flawed.
5: A 9 year old would never do that younger maybe but not 9 year old and she was safe with the prophet and her parents gave consent and she didn't even say as much as "no" if she did the marriage would've been stopped, and you saying she was forced to write things is a theory with no empirical evidence to support it, at the contrary we have empirical evidence saying the opposite, that Muhammed (SAW) was a great man, never lied, never deceived, never complained, indeed he was a great man and Aisha (RA) never complained about the prophet.
And I wont go into the Rebecca thing just wanted to show you why i think it's strange when people only attack islam.
1) Could you provide any references to the practice being common? A quick search turned up that most cultures considered it inappropriate any younger than 12-13 years old. This includes the jewish tradition, the romans and the christians. I didn't see any sources that would condone marrying a 9 year old.
2) There are lots of ways to determine when someone is an adult. But 9 year olds are pre-pubescent, physically and mentally immature. I can't think of any metric by which you could say a 9 year old is an adult.
3) A 9 year old is not mature by any metric. On average, girls continue to mature until 18. at 9 years old they are certainly not mentally or physically mature. Spiritually is not something that is measurable.
4) If you accept that Mohammad was a prophet, it is easy to write off things he does. I mean Donald Trump sure as hell isn't a prophet and lots of people refuse to acknowledge the terrible things he does. It is entirely possible that people gave him a pass because they believed he was a prophet. Also, just because there aren't surviving written records (and i don't know if there are or not) of people objecting to it, doesn't mean they were fine with it. There were alot of things written about the catholic church that they didn't like that did not survive because they got rid of it. Perhaps the Caliphs simply didn't allow that sort of writing to survive.
5) Children are not competent to make their own choices. If given the opportunity a 9 year old will walk into traffic to chase a balloon. What she thought or wanted is irrelevant. Additionally, how do you know if she wanted to marry him (i genuinely don't know)? I'm guessing she didn't write her thoughts down. Most likely other people wrote things down that said she was fine with it. That isn't necessarily true. Alternatively, Stockholm syndrome is a real issue. Once a 9 year is forced to submit so someone, they are likely to begin to see him as their protector. It wouldn't be unusual for them to come to love them. It doesn't make it right.
I wasn't aware of that story. I took a quick look. The reason people probably don't care about that is that the story might be entirely fictitious. The story says Issac's mother gave birth at 90 and lived to 127, which is obvious nonsense. I also don't see any reference to when they had sex. If they didn't consummate the marriage then it is still a weird story, but not pedophilia.
Mohammad was a real person who really had sex with a child.
Brother thank you for the question!
First of all the practice was very common during that time and before so by the norms of that time it was acceptable but by the norms of this time its considered pedophilia, so understand that norms of societies change with time.
second of all I brought up norms now how do we know these norms were correct? There is not a qualified scientist on earth that will put an age to adulthood, people age at different times I.e enter puberty at different times. And the French philosopher "Charles-Louis de Secondat Montesquieu" showed that in warmer climates you more or less enter adulthood faster and even went as far as to say that some considered women at there 20s to be old and insufficient.
third of all Islam is the only religion to forbid consummation if a person is not mentally, physically or spiritually ready and Aisha (RA) was all of those things she even went into battle so she was indeed a strong and mature woman.
Forth of all how come the marriage of Aisha (RA) only was a problem when a British historian mentioned it in his book year 1905? Because it was accepted.
Fifth of all if Aisha (RA) didn't complain who are we to step in and complain about the marriage? Now you might say she was scared but remember that she herself was a strong woman and even battling in war! so by the documents we've seen she was a strong and independent woman, not once did she complain about what the prophet did, they loved each other just like husband and wife should love each other.
SIDENOTE: Just out of curiosity how come people always point at the marriage of Aisha (RA) that was 9 but not for example Rebecca who was 3 years old when she married Isaac? That's because media doesn't show you anything else.
Fair enough. Then I will rephrase my point into a question. And I do mean this as a legitimate question and not as an attack.
I am curious about what Muslims think about the fact that the founder of their religion married and had sex with a 9 year old child. Do you think it is acceptable for a religious leader to do this?
Nemiroff me or him?
I think this debate topic is valid and welcomed. as long as he is able to take calm criticism calmly.
Brother that was my main statement for others to ask question or bring up problems with Islam so that I could answer them but you just mock and go with subjectivity not objectivity.
Mohammad was regularly in contact with Jews and Christians. He took the parts of their religions he liked and fused in his own culture to invent his own religion. He then used that religion to get himself wealth and power (and to molest children).
To be fair, I think that Christianity is a lie as well and i have debated the flaws in Christianity on many occasions on this app. But this is supposed to be a platform to debate. Not to proselytize. If you want to debate something specific i would be happy to do so.
so you just came here to mock?
And no, that is not an ad hominem. He had sex with a 9 year old.
There is no question. God is dead. Why would I ask you questions about a fairy tale made up by a child molester?
Brother what's the question?
God is dead