The debate "Colored people are unjustly milking what happened to their ancestors" was started by
September 1, 2015, 12:20 am.
32 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 30 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
desght posted 10 arguments, AstroSpace posted 1 argument, goldfox1987 posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
PsychDave posted 10 arguments, desght posted 1 argument, Sosocratese posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
desght, krish, sabrina, Bodaciouslady16, AstroSpace, goldfox1987, AnselAmory, ReedSchneider, ResIpsaLoquitor, countrybumpkin, Ryan, Hellrazor, bigB, KicknRush and 18 visitors agree.
djuanstewart, PsychDave, sloanstar1000, Maharshi, danielfello, gouthamabi, Sosocratese, Bestforevr, Moo1, Neaa, dotdotdot, Katana_MC, athinus, pajrc1234, MrAltitude and 15 visitors disagree.
I agree with psychdave on this one and I think he's making the social argument just fine, so I won't add to it. I would like to add a point of institutional discrimination however. Blacks and other minorities are far more likely to go to jail within their life time. This isn't due to them committing more crimes (statistically speaking there is no indication that minorities commit more crimes than whites) it is due to unfair and discriminatory law enforcement practices.
Poverty is another huge factor in being disadvantaged. After WW2 American soldiers were able to buy homes with VA home loans. However, black GIs were not given the same loans or forced to buy homes in black neighborhoods. Banks then artificially drove down home values in and around black neighborhoods by marking them as undesirable. So black GIs weren't able to build the kind of wealth that comes with home ownership. Discrimitory lending and housing practices were around up until about 1977 when the housing reinvestment act came along. So we are really only one generation out from extreme institutional discrimination.
Poverty is the number one hurdle to higher education (you can go and look up the studies on this if you want) so the coming generation of black Americans was institutionally impoverished and prevented from having the same opportunities as their white counter parts. They also continue to be institutionally discriminated against via unequal law enforcement practices, so how can you possibly say that discrimination isn't affecting minority communities anymore?
I'd you don't understand the reference to black people being imprisoned, you should read goldfox1987's comment to which I was replying. Black people are far more likely to be arrested and convicted based on circumstantial evidence and far more likely to be arrested for things that people of other races would not.
Your inability to understand statistics that you presented is somewhat frustrating. Yes, 70% of hate crimes are not directed at black people, but they receive more than any other group. Your premise that since not all hate crimes are against black people they should stop complaining is blatantly ridiculous. Why should they stop trying to prevent the murder, assault or other attacks on them? By your own admission the receive three times the hate crimes as any other race, meaning they face three times the difficulty in life. Even gay people, a group that is attacked by several groups, is less attacked. Your claim that black people are just crying racism without reason is proven false by the fact that they still face enough hate crimes to give them reason to protest.
Your argument that white people are now treated the same as black people is proven false by the fact that we are having this discussion. The fact that you claim that racism exists but it isn't a problem, that black people are just complaining about nothing when they die in jail after being arrested for turning without signaling, and that you feel justified in attacking an entire group of people because you feel that they are not doing enough themselves to better their situation shows that they are not treated the same.
Oh and this literally just came to me but just to reiterate my point that black people aren't the only people going through this, my earlier statistic said about 30% of hate crimes were against black people. That means 70% WERE NOT. They were against other groups who deserved it no more than black people. There are others going through the same thing who rarely get nearly as much press. Why? Because black people IN GENERAL have a habit of bringing up racism and slavery whenever things go wrong. STOP RELYING ON THIS EXCUSE IF YOU DIDN'T GO THROUGH IT.
But that's different! White people and people of color were treated much differently back then where as now they are in the same boat. I'm sorry but people will never be completely rid of discrimination. Look at the stereotypical punk who is seen as rebellious and/or lazy. Look at how we treat overweight people as if they were gluttonous. There are many more similarities in treatment of white and black people than there are differences.
Secondly the fact that you're looking towards a technicality as an argument, especially this late in said argument, proves that you are running out of ideas. Of course I don't mean every single individual colored person. I meant the group as a whole, but of course when you're generalizing anything there are going to be exceptions.
Third, I said nothing about them being lazy per se. They can be hardworking and still look to blame easy targets such as racism when things don't go their way, as well as reach for handouts based on again easy targets such as slavery.
Lastly how exactly are they imprisoned?
I'm also curious why you would single out one small group of people as positive while insulting the racial group they are part of as unjustly milking what happened to their ancestors. Either black people are not all as you describe, or the group you have selected was as well. Either way you again undermine your argument that black people are lazy and grasping and just looking for pity and handouts.
The very arguments you use against black people trying to fight for equality and to stop racism could have been applied to the Tuskegee airmen in their time. Their peers did not feel that there was anything wrong with how they were treated and would have felt that any complaints about racism are unjustified. When black people take to the streets because they are tired of seeing young black people killed by police, do you honestly not see them trying to better their situation?
I find it interesting that you see blacks being imprisoned as a symptom of black people refusing to better themselves rather than a systemic problem with the justice system.
the problem is not one of fairness but one of equality. fairness is worthless in an unequal system and it will breed injustice and unfairness. we see this today as blacks are being given so much to improve fairness, but still they fill the prisons at an extremely disproportionatal rate. whereas an opposite example is the Tuskegee airmen daced every obstacle imaginable plus some, yet these valiant men showed the world true courage and bravery. they exemplified the spirit of perseverance. they were given nothing yet they overcame. the difference is the setting and the people. people change within their setting. the Tuskegee airmen changed for the better, can you say the same about todays inner city population? no...I think not
The idea that simply wanting it and trying guarantees success is ludicrous. It is true that if you don't try you will not succeed, but many people try and fail to better their situation.
You are not presenting new evidence, you are citing specific examples that justify your broad assumptions. Yes, there are other groups that face socioeconomic hardship, and many of them fall into the same situation. You are aware that black people face more racism, by your own admission 3 times as much, but you don't agree that that would make it harder to succeed. Just because you can point to cases where people have overcome the odds doesn't change the odds.
If I had a 1 in 10 chance of winning the lottery, and you had a 1 in 30 chance, would you consider that fair? That is what you are arguing. Black people still face sever handicaps when trying to succeed and people who say that they should stop whining are simply enabling the racism and hatred by refusing to admit that it is a problem.
Thank you goldfox. Prrcisely my point. Your grandparents' status have very little to do with where you end up, assuming you have enough motivation to go somewhere.
And you're just making the same point again when I have already pointed out that A. there are plenty of groups of people in the same situation and B. that hasn't stopped other black people today or in generations past from doing well, therefore it isn't allowed any blame.
I would humbly offer this, you are where you chose to be. If you want something better you do all you can and never give up, no matter what is done to stop or slow you down. If you are content being poor, there is nothing on earth going to move you above where you are. We chose our own destiny. Period.
The past is the past, except when you are being beaten or shot in the present. That kind of limits the argument.
Look at any group that has been marginalised for generations and you will see damage. First Nations people experienced different forms of abuse, and they are likewise still recovering. To say "sure your grandparents were abused, as were their parents, and their parent's parents but you weren't so you should be fine" is absurd.
How do they have the least resources? Because the slums exist? Because their great grandfather wasn't rich? Because their grandmother was treated unfairly in the 50s? All of the organizations I listed are literally built to help people in these situations. But you can't expect to get them by doing nothing. There are literally hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of scholarships that will only be given to African Americans. There's the Job Corps I mentioned which is FREE and gives JOB TRAINING AND EDUCATION. Historically black colleges are given $600 million a year. The Housing Choice Vouchers Program pays part of the rent for very low income families in a HOUSE OR APARTMENT OF THEIR CHOICE. Again: there are plenty of resources. And they're not the only ones faced with modern-day injustice. Blaming the past or even the one racist busineas owner down the street or the one racist white cop in Alabama isn't going to change anything. You can't help individual's opinions but you can do something to help yourself if you try. The past is the past. The government has given them resources and oppurtunities, they just need to use them.
You are right. They are not the only group facing racism and injustice. Just the group facing the most with the least resources.
My statistic was to point out that they're not the only ones. You keep acting as if they're the only people who face inequality and injustice. Its the same reason I linked those articles earlier. And by the way, there are more than a few. Just search hate crimes against white people, or black cop shoots white man, or any other number of things. They are not the only people dealing with it. They are not the only people being treated unfairly.
I don't understand why you would present a statistic showing that black people face more hate crimes than any other group, 3 times what any other race listed faces, and claim that it supports your argument that black people are not facing injustice.
You say many black people claim racism is to blame for not getting jobs, houses or college admission, but do you have anything other than your belief that black people complain unnecessarily to back that up? Yes black people complain that they face racism from both individuals and institutions, but your own statistic supports that claim.
But white people get treated like that too. It just doesn't get as much press. And no the slums are not any better. But you can't solely blame that on the government or country. The people have to put in effort as well. You can't deny it: people are more likely to do drugs and be involved in gangs in those environments. That is not to say that they're the only people involved in those things, but there are more of them. But for the most part nobody is forcing them to do those things. They can be proactive, they can make the decision to get a job or go to school, they can make the decision to not do drugs. The government has given them the resources to do better, they just have to put in enough effort to use them.
I know they are not asking to be rich per se, however many of them have a habit of blaming racism when they don't get the job they want, or the house that they wanted, or when they don't get accepted into their college when most of the time that has nothing to do with it.
And again,black people are not the only people that stuff happens to. In 2014, according to the FBI, 10.4% of hate crimes were anti-white, 20.8% were based on sexual orientation, 32.2 percent were anti-black, and 10.3% were anti-Jewish. There are plenty of people in the same boat.
No one is expecting to be made rich, and as I have never seen anyone asking for that, your argument is something of a strawman argument. They are asking not to be beaten to death and shot by police. They are asking not to be convicted on circumstantial evidence that would be thrown out if the accused were white. They are asking that they get the same opportunities to succeed.
You cite all of the initiatives to better the situation, but do you honestly feel that the slums are better? Would you feel safe living in one and raising your family there? I am not saying that the government has not tried and is not continuing to try, but your labeling black people as grasping opportunists who are milking what happened to their ancestors is inaccurate. If police still feel that choking a man to death for possibly selling cigarettes is acceptable there is still a major problem.
That last one is still supposed to be blue. I must have accidentally pressed a button.
The problem is not the government, and there is nothing that can be done about individual's opinions. Yes, there is racism against black people, and yes it is terrible, but there is also racism against white people as well as all other races all over the country and the world. Just look at a big problem nowadays: discrimination against the LGBT community. They?re not doing anything that hurts the rest of the population, and yet that doesn?t stop religious people from discriminating against them.
You can?t expect the government to make you rich or give you your dream job just because your great grandfather was a slave. Even if slavery and racism had never existed and everyone had always loved each other, that still wouldn?t mean that everyone would be rich. It takes work. Not all white people are rich today and not all black people are poor. In fact, there are a number of black people who became rich and successful when racism was still extremely prevalent. If they could do it then, there?s nothing stopping you today other than yourself. There are plenty of opportunities and plenty of resources for help, you just have to work for it and stop blaming something that happened over 150 years ago, or even 60 years ago.
But the government?s tried to fix it. There's welfare, tons of scholarships directed exclusively towards colored people, affirmative action, a bill passed in 1989 for a $40 billion education fund to be used for black colleges and trade schools, a few years earlier Japanese-Americans were given $1.2 billion to help make up for being in internment camps during World War 2, eight Sioux Indian tribes were given $122 million dollars for the illegal confiscation of tribal lands, the Economic Development Administration provides grants to economically distressed communities to provide jobs and stimulate growth, Job Corps is a no-cost education and vocational training program for people ages 16-24, Public and Indian Housing provides decent affordable housing, and there are many other policies and organizations.
It's great that you can point out a few instances to justify your opinion, but have you actually looked into the statistics of police killings? Even the conviction rates are skewed against black people.
Putting aside that you are misrepresenting why black people are speaking out, it was not that long ago that black people were segregated and prevented from having good jobs, in fact to some extent it us still going on. To complain that your family is poor because your parents and grandparents were mistreated is not unjustly milking history, it is often just looking for a level playing field.
White people are mistreated too, it just doesn't get nearly as much press. A white man gets shot by a black cop and town's like "sad, but okay," a black man gets shot by a white cop and the entire country screams racism.
Here are just a few examples. How many had you ever heard of before now?
They are not whining about slavery, they are complaining that they are being beaten and keep by police and no one is stopping them. They are being mistreated in ways that many of us will never have to deal with. When a black woman can be pulled over for turning without signaling and die in jail, that seems like a valid criticism to me.
Its always a race issue with blacks. They always whine about being slaves when they never experienced that. I agree.
I'm speaking of people born in the last 30-40 years. They weren't slaves. They weren't kicked out if their homeland. They weren't forced into cheap labor or taken of their homes. The government has tried to make reparations, but there is only so much that can be done. And yet, everytime there is any disagreement between a white person and a person of color SOMEBODY of color (not everyone but some) has to bring up race.