Committing suicide is not bad

February 1, 2020, 12:01 pm

Agree47 Disagree131

26%
74%

The debate "Committing suicide is not bad" was started by diecinueve on February 1, 2020, 12:01 pm. 47 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 131 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most people are against to this statement.

TheAbyss posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
Allirix posted 13 arguments, abie posted 1 argument, Huzaifa posted 1 argument, benmiller123 posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.

XxNotLogicalxX, Sadie19, JDAWG9693, TheAbyss and 43 visitors agree.
prince, Allirix, bitchimaqueen, abie, chickenfordiner, StrangeTime, Greetings, Anonymous42, Paula, matthieuwise, Huzaifa, Oxalaia, benmiller123, Joelm, tyler0300 and 116 visitors disagree.

benmiller123
replied to...

Did you know that if you take your own life then you will go straight to hell and I'm sure people don't wanna go there unless you support Satan.

1 month ago

Every human being on the planet should have the right to end it when they feel enough is enough.

1 month ago
Allirix
replied to...

I'm just saying we shouldn't ALWAYS have the right to cut off a relationship. It's a case by case thing based on the nature of the relationship.

On one side there are cases of acquaintances that don't matter much and on the other side there are relationships that are critical to well-being. Most relationships exist somewhere between those two extremes. Close relationships influence your well-being so they're closer to the extreme that is critical to well-being. If no steps are taken to reduce the negative impact your suicide has on close relationships then you're putting their well-being at risk. That's a bad thing in my opinion.

1 month, 3 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

i get the mother cannot cut her relationship to her child, but that is an extremely dependant situation. why can a friend not cut off relationships with other friends? people move and stop speaking all the time.

1 month, 3 weeks ago
Allirix
replied to...

The largest tragedy of death is in the lost potential. A teenager committing suicide isnt the same as a 90 year old dying of old age.

1 month, 3 weeks ago
Huzaifa
replied to...

There is one thing even if you don't commit suicide you have to die one day and all the people related to you will feel the same trauma at that time also then why shouldn't they feel it now when it's the wish of the suicidee to end his suffering? Now it's a debate of comparison, relatives will have to go through the trauma eventually in both cases if he commits suicide or not but if he does his suffering ends. So, the greater good is in commiting suicide.

1 month, 3 weeks ago
Allirix
replied to...

I don't believe we should ALWAYS have the right to cut ourselves out of a relationship to benefit ourself at the cost of the other person. We are responsible for the well-being of those close to us, and that trumps self autonomy and your choice to withhold yourself from the world. But that means I hold unorthodox opinions like socialism is better than capitalism so I'm open to having my mind changed.

To explain my view more: I believe (unless you're a hermit with no relationships) you have a social responsibility to others, and others have the same to you. A parent has a responsibility to nurture their children, a sibling has a responsibility to their brothers and sisters, a friend has a responsibility to their friends, a coworker has a responsibility to their colleagues, etc.

That's what a society is and if too many people do not follow their responsibilities it breaks down. Some 'hawks' can ignore their duties and just pursue self interest and some 'doves' may always adhere to their duties to others at great cost to themselves, but most people find a healthy balance between the two.

Your specific responsibilities are defined by morality, which I believe is set by cultural factors. In other words, society defines how it should treat itself, not an objective set of rules, so the rules are rarely pervasive and in constant flux due to pockets of ongoing negotiations/debates.

One social responsibility required in healthy close relationships is a duty to minimise the TOTAL suffering in the relationship. That's the sum of both parties, which can mean suicide isn't always bad.

But this means you have a duty to minimise the suffering caused by your decision to kill yourself. If you avoided taking any steps to reduce the impact of your suicide on your close relationships, by for example not even talking to them about it beforehand, then the suicide is bad. If you took honest steps then your suicide isn't bad. That's my view.

1 month, 3 weeks ago
TheAbyss
replied to...

In a world where the only meaning is what you give your life why should anyone be able to tell you how long it's supposed to be? Why isn't it good? I believe it just kind of is. The choice was never yours to begin with and who are you to judge someone else's actions. And I'm not going to say before walking in there shoes because even if you did you'd still be a fundamentally different person then they were. Since the world is entirely subjective and in a sense your own, why does anyone else's feelings matter except those you care about and you're own. You just happened to pass be apart of his timeline so why do your feelings get to dictate if what he did in his own world is right and wrong?

1 month, 3 weeks ago
diecinueve
replied to...

I think that the difference between hurting and not giving pleasure is who owns what is being given / taken away.
Since a person's life belongs to that person, to be alive is to give pleasure to his friends and to take your life is only to stop giving them pleasure.

1 month, 4 weeks ago
Allirix
replied to...

You're not hurting someone by not giving them money. Inflicting pain and giving pleasure are very different.

1 month, 4 weeks ago

this is a big problem on atheism. nothing stop you from suiciding

1 month, 4 weeks ago
diecinueve
replied to...

If someone asks you to give him money and you don't give him, you're hurting him, is that bad?

2 months ago
Allirix
replied to...

Depends on how you assess if something is bad. I view harming others for your own gain as bad, even if you're in a worse spot than them. But the view opposing that is also legitimate.

2 months ago
diecinueve
replied to...

so if someone suffers too much, committing suicide would not be bad, even if it is selfish

2 months ago
Allirix
replied to...

Yeah, if their burden is too heavy then I agree. But it will still harm them and you're still kicking them out for yourself.

2 months ago
diecinueve
replied to...

But taking benefits from someone who does not belong to they is not bad. If someone asks you to give him money and you say no, you are taking away a benefit, but it is not bad because that benefit does not belong to him

2 months ago

the premise of not being able to take your own life because it might hurt someone else is not valid because if it won't hurt someone else is it still wrong?
on that basis, the other person could be being selfish by letting you suffer so they don't have to go through pain.

point is, morality isn't dictated by other people's feelings, I personally think life is inherently valuable and that's why you can't even take your own life. you are here for a reason , we might not know what it is but I believe every single person has their own personal mission that no own else can accomplish

2 months ago
abie
replied to...

I think that it does harm others. if you take away someone's benifets you are hurting them

2 months ago
diecinueve
replied to...

if the burden is too heavy I think it is not bad to take a family member out of your house

2 months ago
Allirix
replied to...

Thanks for clarifying the analogy, I now understand where you're coming from a bit better, but I still think your analogy misses the mark. I think an analogy that captures the emotional trauma, dependence, and breach of trust better would be suicide is akin to removing a family member from your home. There's a degree of suffering they put the household through / a degree of suffering on the suicidee. There's the ownership of the property / ownership of your life, and there's a degree of trust being breached in kicking a family member out of the household / a degree of trust being breached when a loved one takes themself away.

On one side the home owner is incredibly selfish if they unexpectedly kick out their child from their household. On the other side the family member is selfish when they forcibly stay and impose a heavy burden on the household without a care for the owner.

2 months ago
Allirix
replied to...

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/185/10/870.short

"We found that exposure to suicide predicts suicide ideation and attempts."

It does create objective measurable harm, especially to youth. You're very wrong with that.

2 months ago
diecinueve
replied to...

committing suicide does not harm others, just stop giving them a benefit that they used to give them. It is as if someone gave you money every day and one day stop giving it, that is not selfish because money does not belong to you, just like the lives of others do not belong to you

2 months ago
Allirix
replied to...

I'm not saying a suicidee must demonstrate their rationale to kill themself. That's absurd. I'm just saying it's not selfish to want someone to live because we believe living is better than dying until proven otherwise. The proof is only there to change the belief that death is a better alternative. With the proof it is selfish to want someone to live, without it it is not.

That's also separate to whether suicide itself is selfish. I was just elaborating on why I believe the people "perpetuating the misery" of living are less selfish than those that want to kill themselves.

As sad as it is to say, it's often easier to give in and let someone suicidal take that option then jump in and be with them, supporting their climb out. It's not self interest that motivates loved ones to support you to live. Supporting takes effort, love and compassion. It's done because it's believed to be better for you to go on.

I argued killing yourself is selfish because it's an escape that leaves behind a wake of destruction. But, it's the act that is selfish, suicide is selfish, not the person who has deluded themselves into doing something they believe is better for them and everyone around them. They're only selfish if they know others will be harmed in their wake.

I feel like I am coming off as incredibly insensitive so I want to qualify my reasoning. From grade 10 to 12 I dated a girl who attempted suicide multiple times. Teenager me sacrificed so much to help her navigate her depression successfully. I experienced the contagious effect of suicide and became suicidal myself, along with other close friends of hers. I was able to climb out of it by convincing myself suicide is selfish because of the impact I'd witnessed from her attempts. I don't believe she was selfish though, but I saw the impact it had on others even though she didn't believe it would happen. I never told her this is what I believed, but I was able to use that as a model for how my own feelings of worthlessness and irrelevance were likely false and my suicide would probably have a negative impact. Thus to kill myself I'd hurt others and I didn't want to do that. Sorry got a bit rambly.

2 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

proof is necessary for objective determinations. i do not need to prove to you why i like vanilla better then chocolate, i just do and you have to respect that. you can plead your case to try to change my mind, but i do not have to defend my mind to myself or anyone else.

if someone says they want to die, that is proof they want to die, although that doesnt mean they will still want to die tomorrow, and it very much might be a mistake, but i dont see it as being selfish, especially if it is a persistent desire. it certainly may be cowardly, but regarding one's own body, it is the external influences who are selfish.

2 months ago
Allirix
replied to...

Yeah, I tried to explain why it's not selfish to want someone to live, even if they're suffering. Wanting someone who is suffering to live is not a case of my interests vs your interests, it's a case of what you believe is best for you vs what I believe is best for you.

Living is better than dying across generally all cases so the burden is on the suicidee to prove death is better for them. Without that proof we must presume living is better, and that is not selfish.

Furthermore, a suicidee's belief is not enough proof because short term pain has likely blinded them to the value their life will have after the pain has passed. If the pain cannot pass then that's proof for a suicide case.

If the suicidee has proven death is better for them, and we agree, then and only then is it selfish for us to want them to continue living since we're no longer wanting what is best for them. But I strongly believe this selfish case doesn't represent most suicide cases outside of euthanasia.

2 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

not saying its wrong to try to convince someone, but perhaps it is wrong to shame them over it.

this was meant to elaborate on which party is the more selfish one. the suicidee causing loss to the people around him, or the people around him perpetuating his misery?

2 months ago
Allirix
replied to...

Trying to convince a loved one to live isn't the same as forcing them to, and if it was then I see it more as an example of tough love than selfishness. That's because in almost all cases it's better to live than commit suicide over the long term. Tough love is the belief that you should restrict the freedom of someone who doesn't know what's best for them. That can be wrong, like when a family forces a child to have a specific career, but a mental state with the urge to kill itself is rarely of sound mind so it's reasonable to assume they don't know what's best.

When there is a genuine discussion with all stakeholders about how the suffering is unbearable then you may be able to demonstrate a sound mind in a debate about trade offs between long term and short term feelings. But I have never heard of that happening except for euthanasia cases which are the exception.

2 months ago

i would say this is a battle of selfishness on both sides, as are many personal decisions.

2 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

do you not see others forcing someone else to live against their will as also being a selfish act? who is being more selfish?

the finale of the good place explored this question, although they were all already dead, one of them wanted to move on past death and end his eternity, while the other didnt want to be left alone. yet she was perpetuating an eternity of misery for him in order that she wont selfishly be lonely.

if someone makes a choice that affects primarily them, having others forcing them to not do that choice for their own benefit is the selfish choice. like forcing a family career on a resistant child.

2 months ago

On the scale of selfish to selfless suicide is closer to selfish because doing it favours your interests over causing harm to others. To be clear, I'm separating the person from the act. In my mind the act is undeniably selfish because it benefits you at the expense of others. But, depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders can delude one into believing their death will have no impact, and therefore cause no harm, so the person committing suicide isnt necessarily selfish.

@die You're free to benefit those around you, you're not free to harm those around you so that analogy doesn't work.

@Nem. It's not selfish to want a loved one to continue living. In the vast majority of cases someone is suicidal from suffering that has a solution. It may take years, even decades, but if there is a solution it is not selfish to want your loved ones to try that instead of kill themselves because it's believed that's overall better for them. Chronic unavoidable suffering is the exception to this, not the rule, so I'd say it's a different discussion, closer to euthanasia instead of suicide.

2 months ago
diecinueve
replied to...

A person's life belongs only to that person, to no one else. Suicide is as selfish as not wanting to give away all your money and belongings to others. And for someone who doesn't like to live, it does have a benefit

2 months, 1 week ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

i will refer to metallica's fade to black as a pro suicide argument. if you do not wish to live, honestly, and not just because of a short term set back (chronic suffering, or even old age and boredom). it may be a cowardly decision but as far as selfishness, I can argue that the loved ones guilting to perpetuate your misery are the ones being selfish.

2 months, 1 week ago

What's your argument for it not being bad? It harms those closest to you and has no real benefit to you, even if it feels like it does. It's one of the most selfish acts someone can commit.

2 months, 1 week ago
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