The debate "Do you believe in the trinity" was started by
January 10, 2017, 12:28 am.
By the way, raze is disagreeing with this statement.
8 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 14 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
neveralone posted 13 arguments to the agreers part.
raze posted 7 arguments, PoliticsAsUsual posted 11 arguments to the disagreers part.
neveralone, RogueAmerican, Christian and 5 visitors agree.
KrotoR, historybuff, PoliticsAsUsual, raze, karlos, TheExistentialist, emshanley, dapollman, human, ProfDoke and 4 visitors disagree.
another way to think about it is their is a map. the map of life. their are many paths on this map. one path is Jesus. to follow this path u need a guide. the holy Spirit. at the end and begining of this path is God.
Honestly, if you want to know is read the catechism. It will be far better than I could ever do.
it could be looked at like that.
its all good. I understand I do it all the time
he wasn't seen first though. correct me others if I'm wrong but the first time the HS is seen was after Jesus left and then the apostles started speaking in tongues because the holy spirit entered them.
I think thinking logically is what we all should do.
scotsman?haha I'm full american. with some native American and probably German (been told I look exactly like German people)
The Father is the stern figure who gives rules and judges people after death.
The Son is the forgiving and loving aspect. He guides more gently and leads by example, giving a role model rather than simply instructions.
Holy spirit is the Force. It guides believers and inspires them. It gives them strength and helps them when they are in need.
I don't mean that insultingly to religious people at all, I am just trying to find something that is a common concept to use as an analogy. I am not religiousbut was raised in a religious house, so if someone has a different view, I do not mean to impinge on their beliefs.
don't see how it gives us intelligence etc from your interpretation.
The holy spirit is pretty much the manifestation of God. Jesus was God made man - we could see Him; however, the spirit gave us the understanding to know Him. The spirit is what gives us wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord. These are the graces needed to truly understand Him.
sorry. btw, made some metapoints into other debates. promise I won't pursue here. they were simply inspired in by my train of thought starting very relevant to here.
feel free to quote me from here in other threads or something.
guess I nailed 2 out of 3, but the holy ghost, although I can repeat the best definition I've been given in the past, still escapes me. honestly I think it would be a mistake, of a person seeing a high angel and mistaking it for god. that seems most logical.
however. after his death, his coming and message turned into a religion that quickly took a turn for the dark ages, which we all can admit were some horrible times, although some cannot admit the possibility those in charge in those dark times would twist some aspects of that faith into something... off. God never spoke to humanity as a whole again.
or, he is just waiting to come when his ideas fully integrate, time has no meaning for him of course, a few millenia is actually a regular pace.
yet it seems that societies which follow Christ's teachings of love (by example) are primarily secular societies. the strict dogma of the Christian path has failed and created monsters along the way. simple social consideration and a bit of that old PC culture (without going too far) appears much better without a society that has been twisted towards self promotion and a dismissal of others.
now science, which does dismiss others, is not to be confused with secularism. those are different things. secularism isn't even atheism. a society composed of religious people of many faiths, no atheists, which bans governing based religious doctrine, is secular, with no atheism.
the only reason I ended with this tangent is because secularism has been under attack lately, and blamed for discrimination and dismissal. what's happening is its doing its job in getting in the way of religious legislation, and I'm sure that sucks for some of you, but it's a must for others, and yourself if the tables flipped.
and neveralone, I know you say you are not in agreement with such actions, and no true scotsman, I mean christian, would support them, but reality is gay CIVIL marriage controversy is a thing.
u actually nailed it. that is scripture in a sense since as u know about the Trinity.
hmm. this got me thinking. may I express a theory, completely a priori, no scripture or anything.
god, also a different being much like the angels also did not fully understand man, thus came to us as a man in order to better understand us and for us to better understand him so that he can guide us into the right path. thus his "son" is him. him choosing to not just come down as a heavenly being but to be actually born, as a human, and experience us.
in a way yes. but an angel can't understand u. an angel is a different being. that's why Jesus came. that's why we have the spirit. I assure u to know God's will is quite the challenge. that is why we go to God and the holy spirit (HS for short). not the angel. the angel opens the book to see how we lead our life's. Jesus is their to say I know him and he knows me and I have wiped away his sins. thus why we can enter.
why can't a servant be a compass? it seems like an easy enough task. does not an angel judge you upon arrival at the pearly gates? that is also a mighty task, yet the servant is capable.
not angel per say. an angel is a servant. nothing more or less. the holy spirit is much more. it is our compass nowadays. like God's voice. he is what we feel when we pray and do things. he is as close to God on earth until God remakes the earth.
I was going to guess it was the felt presence of God as his divinity is so great he could not enter our world even in a noncorpreal form and requires a downgrade much like his physical form...
but neveralone's interpretation sounds like it isn't God at all but a guiding angel working for god/jesus. at least that's the way it sounds.
the holy Spirit is to assist us. think of it as Jesus in us. it guides us and helps us. Jesus sent it when the apostles got worried that Jesus was going away but Jesus said he would send somone to guide them. which was the holy spirit. it is why we still are here instead of some dead religion.
What do you perceive the holy spirit to be?
Adam has human genome constructed by God instead of inherited, but it's human, much like the first fish or the first bear are not divine.
jesus was not constructed like Adam but is actual divinity.
another disclaimer. not religious, looking forward to corrections and alternate theories.
yeah neither did Adam. and since he wasn't conceived from a father or a mother that would make him even mightier than Jesus. I'm asking for your reasoning that you got from the bible. what is it that makes him the son of god and not Adam?
my biggest question is the holy ghost. wtf is that?
I get the son division since God can't come to earth in his divine form for whatever reason. but the holy ghost is an utterly useless destination as far as I have heard.
the fact that half his genome is supposedly divine as he was supposedly conceived without sex.
you didn't answer me. what is it that makes him the son of god
we are all his sons and daughters but Jesus is literally God's son.
ok so you don't worship jesus but you still say that he is God's son, doesn't the bible say that Abraham is also the son of god? and ishmael too? so why do you claim that jesus is his son?
The other way of looking at it I've heard is similar to how each person has different personalities depending of the situation. The way you talk to your mother is different from how you talk to coworkers or customers and different again from how you talk to you significant other. We defined each aspect of God's behavior based on his role at the time. The father is the stern, rule setting aspects, the Holy Spirit is the grace and majesty, and the Son is him relating to us and showing us how to behave. Obviously this is an oversimplification, but it is one explanation. They are all the same being, but different aspects of Him.
yeah that is a great way to do it.
The best analogy I have heard is to compare it to a triangle. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all faces, but they are a single being. All three faces are God, but they are different aspects of Him. The problem with explaining it simply is that it is like asking someone to define which side of a triangle is the real triangle. All three sides are a part of the larger whole, but you might only be able to see one side at a time.
yes we are taught by both not to worship Jesus but to worship God our Creator. on the saving himself this is more like when a grenade comes in the room u jump on it to save ur friends. when Jesus died he took our sins with him. he shed his blood so we can be saved. yes that is interesting. it doesn't exactly say so this is speculation. well we are told he is a part of God. and we are told that he breathed life into us. so u would say he took a part of himself and made the holy spirit out of it.
but they are not equal correct? other wise why would he refer to him as god and why wouldn't he just save himself?
and i dont understand how he is part of god but is the holy Spirit
they are pieces of a whole. they are one but then again they are pieces. another way to think of it is that Jesus was a part of God. and so is the holy spirit.
whose him? the father or the son?
note : you haven't answered what is it that you worship?.
so the son is also god? but when he was being crucified he said "my god my god why hast thou forsaken me?" Mark 15:34
doesn't that mean they're separate, not one? and that one is superior to the other?
it is a well known that there is only one God. Him. as for me, it is the most logical and comprehensive pose
yes and no. the holy spirit is just that a holy spirit. it is not an angel. think of them roughly like a piece of metal with 3 diff. types in it. they are inseparable yet still part of something unique.
I don't believe in any religion, thus no trinity. but if I may, we are talking about supernatural spiritual beings that lack any body. God is supposedly everywhere at once (omnipresent) including inside us, trees, lizards, and stones. thus claiming he is divided in 3 categories but still 1 being isn't complete nonsense since he isn't physical to begin with.
so the trinity consists of the fathet, the holy ghost and the son. and the father is god, the holy spirit is an angel and the son is Jesus. they are three separate entities but they are all one?
help me understand. are they all worshipped? are they all god?