Equality is more important than secularism

January 9, 2017, 8:27 am

Agree18 Disagree9

67%
33%

The debate "Equality is more important than secularism" was started by Blue_ray on January 9, 2017, 8:27 am. 18 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 9 people are on the disagree side. People are starting to choose their side. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

PsychDave posted 3 arguments to the agreers part.
PoliticsAsUsual posted 10 arguments to the disagreers part.

PsychDave, karlos, thereal, R3HAB, emshanley, dapollman, human, ProfDoke and 10 visitors agree.
PoliticsAsUsual, KrotoR and 7 visitors disagree.

hopefully my rant in the trinity post didn't go unnoticed, but secularism has nothing to do with atheism, and the purpose of secularism is religious equality.

thus this thread is nonsensical as secularism=equality (or 1 form of it)

2 years, 5 months ago

You seem to have confused segregation, which was legal for a long time, with religious persecution, which is not. A black guy could have tried to sue, but at the time when this would have happened the business would have been within their rights. You don't live in the past, so how is a law that no longer protects discrimination relevant? You are taking one isolated incident and claiming it is evidence of a nationwide problem with Christians being persecuted. That is why PoliticsAsUsual asked for a law discriminating against Christians.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

your assuming based on decades old examples. why aren't you using more recent ones? have there been no justice lawsuits in the last decades? I think your completely wrong.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
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I'm not saying there not competent. only that it would only end badly like it has in the past.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
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that's your guess. you seem to be painting a multitude of prosecutors and court systems across the nation and the various states as all incompetent based on an assumption and little else.

the justice department has shown results in recent times and I don't see why you would think they wouldn't take a legitimate non fabricated a complaint seriously.

I think your just plain wrong.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

which is why we need reform. just liked everyone else seems to. we might be at a turning point for America. who's to say which way it goes? I hope we do good though

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
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a black guy was in his rights to sue white people to at one time but just like then there's rarely anything that will happen in those times.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
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there was an or next to the lying. the point is its hard to believe, but the post continued with further points as well.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
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I don't make up stuff man. lieing is a sin. I try to stay away from sin.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

I can believe in the glances. someone that devote is rare and exotic. I'd be staring too. no insult, but you just don't see that everyday, like staring at someone walking around in traditional clothes. but I'm not buying the asking you to leave. your either living among particularly bad scumbags, or your making it up.

either way your within your rights to sue the restaurant for discrimination. and I'll support your right to the prayer and the lawsuit, much liberals and supposed God hating atheists support any religion to practice their faith. democrats have supported allowing Muslims to wear the hijab, or pray at work (they have a strict schedule) yet pro religious rights right fight against these rights for other religions.

like I said, you may be for freedom for all, but most "pro religion" right are only pushing a Christian agenda and don't care for other faiths. you do not speak for all Christians, elected officials do.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

well my example is more for small towns since that's where I live. I could go to our diner right now and pray before my food. after words I will see out of the corner of my eye people whispering and stealing glances and before u know it all of a sudden I was insulting everyone in that diner with my prayer and i get "asked" to go somewhere else. this is my life. idk about others.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
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sorry different debate. got confused

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
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I didn't cuss. cry is not a cuss word.

and I'd like to see an example of Christianity under attack, you made the point you can't pray on the street, can you provide an example?

2 years, 5 months ago

will be back

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

that's not all of us.

we state our opinions as people. which is our right

people hiding behind the name atheist do hate God. but they aren't u. "cry"? im stating a fact. we are under attack daily. partly our fault. we have become passive Christians.

yes u can it's ur right. I understand at times that it happens but would prefer no cussing but that is ur choice.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

what were facts before they were proven? indeed yes, they were ideas. there were also not presented as fact, not taught in school, and under constant review.

so treat religion as science treats multiverse theories... as philosophy and faith, not taught in any science class, not presented as fact, just wild speculation for the fun of it.

if someone is gay, and you set up a prayer tent outside his house, targeting him specifically with your prayers regularly, and not just praying between you and god, and refusing to leave him alone at his request... that's harrassment.

if you find a nice quiet place in the park to pray, or must take a few minutes to pray during work for yourself and not to make a message or shame others, then it's not harrassment and I'd like to know who or where would stop you or if anything like that happened anywhere.

I'm not going out into the street to prove your point. if you feel it's a serious problem then there should have been incidents that you can point to that weren't isolated.... and as you hinted that it is banned legally, please show me the line in the law or ANY example of enforcement of such law.

we were talking about religions legislating their beliefs, and you tried to shift it to why can't we just talk about them. that is a redirection, the denial is not appreciated.

talking without harassment is perfectly fine (see the example earlier in this post), we are talking legislating and that is an absolutely not ok. the 2 are different issues. there is no conflict to talking in most situations. we agree. please don't switch it to frame me/us for demonizing talking about religion when we are arguing against specifically legislation. my accusation stands.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

"that is not what I said at all. u seem to think we want to force our ideas on everyone. we don't. no religion i understand does. stop thinking atheist are the only ones who want to live their lives."

no religion forces it beliefs on people? sharia law? the inquisition? the gay marriage controversy?

with very few exceptions, ALMOST EVERY RELIGION FORCES IT'S VIEWS ON OTHERS. if you know of no religions that force their views on others, then you know very little.

you didn't say that atheists hate god, but plenty of other Christians on this site have. and you did "cry" that your religion is under attack in threads like "the bible is absolute", "jesus is the way, the life", and "salvation can only be found in the blood of christ."

the crying is not literal, at least I hope not, can't see you. but it's meaning is quite obvious. the right always complains about the PC culture. I know not mostly you, but can I not speak with slightly strong language? that wasn't even a cuss.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

that is not what I said at all. u seem to think we want to force our ideas on everyone. we don't. no religion i understand does. stop thinking atheist are the only ones who want to live their lives.

haven't said u hate God. haven't been crying and finally hopefully for the last time but starting to doubt it now I'm not enforcing my ideas on u.

what were facts before being proven? an idea. so I'm in my right to do so. also I'm trying to get it where u can understand. on a side note how is praying harassing anyone? that's like saying I'm harassing u by talking to my friend.

maybe not on this debate app but in life theirs plenty with questions. didn't try to redirect. being told I'm doing something I'm not is not appreciated.

well just take a step outside right now and try to pray. we will see how long it takes before u are surrounded by people calling such a faith a cult and illogical and the list goes on.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

so f*** the Muslims and the jews, but God forbid anyone say no to Christian viewpoint, cause they are obviously discriminating against you and hate god.

sorry for getting mad, it tends to happen when someone keeps telling me that I hate something that I don't believe in exists and keeps crying that they are under attack cause they don't get to enforce their values on unbelievers.

stop conflating the teaching of verified facts with unverified beliefs. and who the hell is prosecuting people who pray outside. (unless your talking about praying outside an abortion clinic aka harassing people.) if you go to a park and pray, or demand time to pray from your employer that is more than protected. in fact it is the religious right that keeps attacking Muslims for asking to pray at work as they have very strict requirements. (unlike Christians aka religion lite)

the thing is, no one asked about god, but you are still answering questions Noone asked, but preaching is not what we are talking about here. legislating is. the attempt at redirection was not appreciated.

please, I'm very curious about your claim that you are not allowed to pray outside of church. sounds like utter nonsense propaganda again.

2 years, 5 months ago

we don't just let everything go. I like my meat too much. haha. u still have to give reasons but this also allows perspective.

u can obviously do such things.

want to do some breathing techniques u seem worked up. if that was so then I should be allowed to pray outside church. keeping it to ourselves seems illogical. let me explain before u get angry. if u simply kept the idea of evolution to urself would anyone know about it? no then the idea would die. we are saying if u want to know about God we will answer to the best of our abilities

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

all religions have a say? what does that mean? Muslims want to ban alcohol, Hindus want to ban beef, Jews want to ban pork, and all activities on saturday. if we pander to every religion's demands, everything will be banned.

and what if I want to eat beef and pork? what if I want to drive on saturdays? what if I want to marry the love of my life who happens to have a penis?

don't eat what you don't want, don't drive when you don't want, don't marry another man if you don't want to.

NOONE IS DEMANDING YOU QUIT YOUR RELIGION. that's just a lie you keep repeating to yourselves until you start believing it. we want 1 simple thing. keep your personal beliefs TO YOURSELF. that is secularism, not that this point will.penetrate your head as it is far from the first time we are making it. might as well go bang my head on a wall, it will have about as much effect.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

Noone cares when you describe your lifestyle. you try to enforce your lifestyle on others, from gay marriage to abstinence only sex ed in public schools.

if you kept it to describing your lifestyle that would be fine, but that's a lie. big fat lie.

and it's curious how you defend Christianity in America by citing your personal views, like gays can marry, just not in a Christian way (despite some denominations being open to it), while ignoring the fact that most Christians are trying to ban any and ALL forms of gay marriage, including secular city hall marriages.

you are just one person. you do not represent christianity, please stop ignoring reality.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

well that depends on what u mean by unconnected but for the most part they can and will get married with or without any say so from anyone. I just ask that u don't insult the idea of Christian marriage. get married in any religion that believes it's fine and live ur life.

no.

2 years, 5 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

And that's fair. Do you believe your religious objections should mean two people you are unconnected to and who believe differently cannot get married?

Related to that, do you believe telling Christians that they cannot restrict other people's right to get married is the same as telling them what they can or cannot believe?

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
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and that's better how?

simple let all religions in that country have a say. talk peaceful for this nations greater good. and lack of religion too.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
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so forcing people to believe their is no God is what? a gift. u try to change our beliefs because u don't agree with them. I say if u have questions I will answer to the best of my ability.

2 years, 5 months ago
neveralone
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any belief seems to hurt somone. for example people seem to get hurt when we describe our lifestyle.

2 years, 5 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
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we never said you are wrong, we said you have no evidence you are right. please keep your unverified belief system to yourself and your congregation is all we ask.

if your going to push religion legally, what will you do with other religions that disagree with you? a secular society may or may not pursue equality, but a nonsecular society CANNOT be equal by default.

that is why secularism is so important ad official government policy.

2 years, 5 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Really? Because religious groups fight gay marriage as well as many other things that don't actually impact them. Atheists tell religious people not to tell them what to do more than the other way around. Freedom of speech means anyone can say someone else is wrong, but forcing your beliefs on them because you think they are wrong is worse.

2 years, 5 months ago

While I agree two aren't really connected, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want so long as it doesn't hurt someone else.

2 years, 5 months ago

I haven't seen equality at all. I've only seen atheist say everyone else is wrong.

2 years, 5 months ago

the 2 are barely related. and secularism tends to promote equality be keeping any one religion from enforcing it's values on people of different faiths.

the only secular society to actually persecute religion was the extreme and oppressive interpretation of communism in the Soviet union, which was practically a fascist dictatorship.

2 years, 5 months ago
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