The debate "Fetuses feels pain at 20 weeks. Abortions past 20 weeks should be against federal law" was started by
January 22, 2018, 2:12 pm.
11 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 9 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
Slymcfly posted 1 argument, DrMrDaniel posted 1 argument, Nemiroff posted 10 arguments to the agreers part.
BrynnY posted 14 arguments, DrMrDaniel posted 4 arguments, kissmyashleeyy posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
Slymcfly, Nemiroff, trump, chasediedrich1, Delta_Force01 and 6 visitors agree.
BrynnY, DrMrDaniel, kissmyashleeyy and 6 visitors disagree.
Victims of rape are extremely unlikely to report it as a rape and even rape kits are unreliable. The huge problem with this is that more instances of consensual sex are likely to reported as rapes if a fetus is conceived. You can't say, "abortion is only okay if..." because at the end of the day it isn't your life or your decision unless it is your fetus or spoken to your partner about what you want beforehand.
all things that can taste are alive but not all life can taste. if I find something that has a sense of taste I can definitely say it's alive even if taste is not a basic requirement.
my comparison of your confusions was that infinity is a complex subject that i completely understand your confusion with it.
however confusing the idea that some features can be exclusive to life without it being a necessary feature of all life is like being confused how all Europeans are not French when the French are clearly Europeans. it's a simple concept that I have no idea how you are mixing it up. I have many features that are not one of those 7 and are not shared by plants and bacteria.
I also didn't link your confusion, your confused on both completely independent of each other. I do not have the patience to detangle every time you twist my words so I'm not sure how seriously I will treat our future debates if this continues.
You keep treating the 7 characteristics as fact when it's really just a hypothesis under much debate. viruses for example only share 1 characteristics but are still considered life by many scientists. I've cited several articles clearing explaining that point.
I also previously posted an article demonstrating that fetus do perform homeostasis much earlier including regulating their Blood pressure very early on, but conflicting evidence seems to be ignored.
but homeostasis isn't what I'm talking about, in taking about pain, and I never said it was a common characteristic. like the French/ European example, not all life feels pain, but some life does, and nothing that is not life feels pain. that's your confusion since you did mental somersaults and twisted my words to return to your characteristics hypothesis.
kinda how you twisted me saying that this is simpler then the infinity concept into me saying that they are in any way related.
Also you seem to think I didn't understand the concept of infinity. Which I do. Also infinity and biology are quite separate concepts and confusion on one doesn't imply that everything else would confuse me.
Its not confusion. Its a deep understanding. Unless something follows all the characteristics of life then I will not consider it living. If scientists decide to add or subtract to the 7 provided then this might change.
the characteristics of life (which is a work in progress and does not have concensus) are the basic common characteristics ALL life seems to have.... that doesn't mean that life has no other features.
not all life feels pain as far as we know, so it isn't a common characteristic SHARED BY ALL LIFE, but pain is something that only a living thing can feel.
I don't understand your confusion here, unlike the infinity concept, this is pretty simple.
No. It is not. Feeling pain is not one of the 7 characteristics of life.
being French is not a requirement to be European, but French is a feature that only europeans have.
certainly there is life that does not feel pain, but anything that does feel pain is within the family of life.
not all Europeans are french, but all French are europeans.
Pain isn't a requirement to be considered living and it can't be. Plants don't have nervous systems so by making pain a requirement you're knocking out an entire group.
What other non living thing feels pain?
It also doesn't change the fact that they aren't living organisms either. The argument that most pro-lifers use is... drum roll.... Life! Perhaps a woman could be reminded. "The fetus will begin to feel pain around X number of weeks so it is advised that you make a decision on abortion before then". Although I would not ban it completely since the fetus is not living.
the point of the pain is that they are sentient. just cause the pain is numbed by medication doesn't change their developmental level.
You cannot die if you were never alive in the first place. Also the fetus may feel pain but the guy already refuted is own argument when he mentioned they are given pain medication in certain states before the abortion.
I am not agreeing to the 20 week mark specifically but if it does feel pain, then it's probably conscious, and if it's conscious, it should not be aborted.
the concept of life is irrelevant. it was at no point dead, even before conception.
Yes but you left out 7) maintain homeostasis. Which a fetus does not do until around the 3rd trimester.
I'm not saying that organisms without organs are not living. I was giving examples of common, human life traits. Your lungs are living because the cells that make your lungs are alive. If they were not, you would not be able to breath. In order for something to be considered living, it must fit these commonly accepted rules
1) Made by cells
2) obtain and use energy
3) grow and develop
5) respond to environment
6)adapt to environment
So plants aren't living organisms because they don't have a heart or nervous system? My lungs are living because they are made of living cells?
A fetus IS a living organism. He/she (because the fetus stage is the stage where the chromosomes make gender determined organs) has a functioning heart, functioning neurons, functioning motor control, and organs that will function once born. Even before you are a fetus, before you are an embryo, when you are a single fertilized zygote, you are a living organism because all the cells that make you are alive.
Also for something being killed to be classified as murder it needs to be unlawful. Abortion is not against the law.
A fetus is not a living organism and therefore nothing is being killed when it is terminated. Unless the fetus is around the 3rd trimester.
A fetus, a developing baby, is being killed. I assume you dislike the murder of children. Think of it like that.
How is it murder? What is being killed?
Because a fetus is still a person and killing a person is murder. Also, if you don't want a baby, abstain or use protection.
Because why have control of your own body.
I think abortions in general should be against the law. Only for victims of rape.
Alright that is fine but if they are given pain medication then I find no problem with it.
It's pretty widely accepted by the medical community. So much so that the blue state of Colorado requires, by law, that doctors give the fetus anesthesia before aborting if they are 20 weeks or older.
What study did you get this from? Last I checked doctors still debate this. Also it should be after the 3rd trimester that abortion stops being an option.