The debate "Gender is determined by the presence of a XX chromosome or a XY. Sex and gender are synonyms." was started by
March 1, 2018, 3:13 pm.
14 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 3 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
Nemiroff posted 6 arguments to the disagreers part.
NPW, criscap, batmanfan777, chemikilsm0ke and 10 visitors agree.
Nemiroff and 2 visitors disagree.
you are right tho......
just because something is malfunctioning doesn't make it unnatural or not biological. unless these people were the result of some hardcore experimentation, any dysfunction is 100% natural.
I do think that the cause of this dysfunction is social (over enforcement of gender norms, I went into detail earlier), but the discomfort the people feel as a result of this dysfunction is with their biological sex.
the part that feels dysfunctional is not so much the desire to be the opposite sex but the discomfort in being your own sex.
Well thats a different aspect. When we are born, we are either born with a penis or with a vagina ( biologically speaking) . We are born as either male or a female.
Developing a mental issue that makes a person change his sex to become a transgender , no way seems natural or biological to me.
Correct me if im wrong.
I agree with you regarding to wordings, but Daniel made me see a distinction.
gender nonconformists dispute the social aspects of gender, but trans people actually dispute their biological sex. the two groups that I think both the left and the right have been shoving together, are actually very different.
when it comes to trans people, it's not normal. they are suffering from a mental illness, gender dysphoria. no matter what society may accept or not, without corrective procedures they are simply uncomfortable in their very own bodies. however, the gender non conformists are perfectly fine with themselves, it's traditional society that finds them to be wierd.
so the part of your post I disagree with is that trans have anything to do with the social aspect of gender. their issue is 100% the biological aspect.
how can they be synonyms? Gender is a socially apointed sex while sex is a natural thing eg. You are born a female / male. Transgenders or gays are social sex and not a natural one. You cant be born a gay. But you might become one.
1. no, it's not a spectrum between male and female. it's a spectrum between masculine and feminine. it's entirely personality. masculinity is not a biological feature.
2. diseases are feelings. something is a disease if it impedes your ability to live and care on the activities of daily living. if you get the flu, but you show no symptoms, you are not sick. if you have diabetes but are successfully managing it, you are not considered sick. You are sick when you are incapable of functioning at your normal level. when you FEEL sick. hypochondriacs are sick, just not with what they are sick with. it's a mental illness, much like gender dysphoria. and unlike hypochondriacs who will always come back with a new problem, people who had gender surgery typically show satisfaction and no more distress.
3. You are confusing gender identity and gender dysphoria. your main issue lies with people who are one gender of the 2, claiming to be the other gender of the 2, the trans people. the whole list of nonconforming genders has nothing to do with this. they are all comfortable in their bodies and their sex, but their personalities don't fit in with our gender norms. this is in line with cultural practices throughout the world and history as was shown in the third gender link I posted.
I feel like I should comment on two of your points.
1) You state that gender is a spectrum with female and male being on the ends. This mentality is exactly what I'm debating. Gender is not a spectrum. You are one thing or another. It is true that there are social aspects to gender such as boys wear blue and girls wear pink but that doesn't change the biology which is what gender and sex is.
2) You stated that surgery is done only to the sick but your claim seems to forget about plastic surgery which is exactly what a sex change is. People with gender dysphoria are not actually sick or ill. They feel like they have a problem and that their gender isn't what they FEEL like they are. Diseases are not feelings and, considering you previously stated you were studying medicine, you should know that. It's a coined term like halitosis. However, there is a condition for those that constantly believe there is something wrong with them, it's called hypochondria.
You only need to go back a few decades and sex determined alot more then your gender. from your jobs, to your rights, to your freedom. even your personality was constrained. just because something was done a certain way in the past doesn't make it truth.
it's not like the trans people and their issues didn't exist, it's just that they were regarded as freaks and dismissed, much like gays only a few decades prior. however calling something a freak doesn't explain it, only dismiss it.
Also, what you are saying is historically true about our culture, but not humanity as a whole, and even our own earlier forebearers.
the history part is the section relevant to my point.
It's less a definition change as a acceptance/liberation (for those who can't conform). like I asked, could you behave feminine seriously and consistently as your identity regardless of your actually personality? I'm agreeing with you that they couldn't be called a woman, but they can ask you to refer to them as she. one is a fact, the other is a social title, and completely irrelevant to any results.
yeah, I think that whole gender list thing is just confusion. gender is a spectrum. masculine on one end, feminine on the other. it really has nothing to do with genetics and 100% your personality, and there are an infinite set of personalities so listing them is stupid.
gender dysphoria is a disease. people who undergo surgery are sick. surgery is not done on healthy people in general. I think we have both been conflating gender identity with gender dysphoria. someone in one of those weird categories is just some level of queer. he isn't in 99% of cases undergoing reassignment.
That's the thing. Ever since the 2000's when everyone was becoming progressive, gender was never social or psychological. Gender was a synonym for sex but now everyone thinks you can be whatever you think you are which makes no sense. It's because of this mentality that people think there are dozens of genders. Your feelings don't correlate to science.
That's why I made this argument. To set it straight that gender IS biological. We need to stop manipulating these definitions or else our future generations will believe in fantasys. I'm aware definitions change over time but this is a pretty large leap. It's because of this that social media like Facebook have about FIFTY genders to choose from when making an acount.
Also, whenever people use transgender as a subject of debate, why does everyone also refer to Catylin Jenner. Seriously, there are certainly more trans people out there.
in other words, trans people are just effeminate men who have been shamed about being a feminine man. it's impossible for them to fake masculinity just like you won't be able to seriously keep up a feminine personality. since we set the rules that feminine must be women, they went for women.
remember, most of this struggle isn't happening one day when they wake up like certain caricatures make it seem, this was happening during their childhood years when they were just learning our environment and rules from scratch. them being a boy must have been a mistake since they are so like a girl mentally. we enforced that.
if I look up gender on Google I'll get every possible usage of the term. dictionaries don't define language, they just record the definitions we (collectively) decide they mean, even if it's numerous options. I just looked up gender in Merriam Webster and I found both a) sex and b) psychological traits associated with a sex.
I would think the highly specific disciplines of science and medicine would be the definitive tie breakers, otherwise words mean whatever a critical mass of people want them to mean.
sex is biological aka xx or xy
gender is psychological/social and usually confirms to sex but quite frequently doesn't. and no this is not some neoliberal stuff but is found in cultures around the world from ancient Greece and Rome to the Philippines, and many many others.
I do agree that gender dysphoria is not a normal condition. I don't think these people would normally identify as the opposite sex but just be a more feminine or masculine version of their own sex. like prince for example. this is of course just my theory, but it would explain why most trans people are male to female. women's norms are quite flexible. there is nothing wrong with a tomboy girl wearing pants and hanging with the guys, but if a guy wanted to bend some norms, he will probably have a torturous school, and possible home life. boys don't cry, boys don't show most emotions, boys don't like pink (even tho it was totally a male color in medieval times). You keep telling a feminine boy that boys don't do this, you will convince him that maybe he wasn't meant to be a boy.
the reason for this theory is when Caitlyn genner proclaimed he feels like a women and a feminist commentator was like "what the heck does a women feel like"? I realized that entire line is bullshit. what does a man feel like? you know what you feel like, do you really know what your neighbors feel like? especially the weird recluse one? does Arnold Schwarzenegger feel the same as Einstein, or prince, or mr. rogers? I doubt it. they don't "feel like a women" they just noticed they *dont* feel like what *we defined as male*. and the logical alternative was women (not attack helicopter)
Your med book uses "sex" because that's a more proper term in medicine but if you look up gender on Google, you would get the definition and, under synonyms, you would get sex. Same if you look up the definition sex, you get gender as a synonym.
What is thought to be the difference between gender and sex?
I agree with the first part but where will you confirm that gender and sex are synonyms.
I am studying basic medicine and I see both in psychology and sociology books (used differently and specifically) but gender is 100% absent from any direct biology book. the words are 100% different.
I am adding this because I ran out of space on the title.
Transgender doesn't change your actual gender and gender dysphoria is a feeling, not a condition.