The debate "God did not create us we 'created' God." was started by
August 17, 2015, 10:08 pm.
81 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 101 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
wayneSPEC posted 1 argument, historybuff posted 10 arguments, sloanstar1000 posted 1 argument, Alex posted 1 argument, VannyMatt posted 1 argument, pajrc1234 posted 19 arguments, stantinou93 posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
Alex posted 29 arguments, goldfox1987 posted 5 arguments, historybuff posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
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check my post in the creationists/evolutionists debate.
The pagan's reason to create things can be applied to all religions. We actually created religion to try to understand how the world works. Why believe one story and not the other? You have no more verifiable proof that God exists than any other prophet.
Believe in one God
Abraham as founder Moses as maker of laws
believe in the Torah as sacred book.
believe messiah will come.
Believe in multiple gods
made up gods to explain nature or things they did not understand.
Believe in one God same as Jewish God
Believe Jesus was the Messiah
Believe in bible as sacred book, also has Tradition, teachings of the church.
Believes on one God
Muhammad as founder, also believes in Abraham
book is Quran written by Muhammed.
lot of different branches.
non catholic christians
thousands of different kinds.
Do not believe in Mary the mother of God and other church teachings.
Believes in altered Catholic bible.
Many different founders.
Hope this is what you wanted.
I do ask questions about my faith, but I don't doubt it. For example In a class today we were discussing Jesus before he took on flesh. Many questions were asked, but no one doubted.
Previously it was mentioned that God created man (thus early man would know God was real and would "believe in him" and his idiologies (religion)). I'm interested to know, preferable from someone who understands and believes in a religion; how and when did man separate to hold such different and strong views regarding creation and universal outlooks - I.e when did different religions form? And as religions are all different, do you ever question your own beliefs and religion because someone else is to so fixed in theirs? e.g. Christianity and Hinduism
Did u know most Christians did not read the bible until the printing press in the 1500's?
Tradition is how people knew about God, same way they knew before Moses wrote the first books.
And Islamic people actually have their own religious books.
My point stands. Without the Bible, no one would believe the Christian stuff now. You just said they inspired the people to write it. Well, he didn't inspire anyone else to do it, and if he did, that would be the Bible. Without the Bible, I bet a lot of us would practice other religions. The Bible is what says that God exists. Without it, we wouldn't even know of the Christian God.
God inspired the writers to think those things. Other religions like islam who do not have the bible believe in a God.
And even with the Bible, there are people who don't believe the same. Catholics believe in God, correct? Well, the Bible was the thing that claims God exists. Without the Bible, people wouldn't believe the same exact thing as the Bible, because it claims these things that only the writers could have thought of.
Even without the bible, we would still believe the same. Some things we believe are not in the bible. By we I mean Catholics. Other prodestants believe in only the bible.
And one more thought, the Bible is not your proof, it is your claim. Think about it.
The books were, according to science, written at different times.
because they made it together. They wanted to explain the unknown. All of them wrote the Bible together because they were coming up with ways to explain the world, together. So they build onto each other's ideas and BOOM! Bible. You could actually ask that about any religious text. The last time, I don't care what you believe. I just know the truth. I'm not going to argue anymore because there's no point. You will say you need faith, bring up non-confirmed "proof" and say that the one that does not think a magical being poof up everything in the universe is illogical.
God is known
Answer this question. Why did the writers of the bible all agree. If they were all crazy why did have similar crazy thoughts.
Believe what you want, but think about using logic and reasonable claims to make a theory. Don't explain the unknown with the unknown
Bigfoot is real
Evidence 1 : Many had been eaten by him
2: People had visions of him
3: You only need to have blind faith.
Really? Many others at the time could have turned water into wine and back the wound. Or, atleast, they claimed to. Were those people the Lord? I doubt it. Jesus pulled off the magic tricks to fool everyone. If he healed the wound, why can't he do it now? Your claim has been out logic ed. Also, where does it claim that? The Bible? If we could really see that it was written down by others who witnessed it, we could verify that it actually happened.
Visions? If heaven was real, EVERYONE would have visions. Then we compare a visual on physical paper. If God would give two guys visions and they both drew them, we could compare. This is so that both people are being honest about seeing them and it wasn't a fake vision. I've had my visions of heaven, too. I've also heard other people talk about it. They are nowhere close to what I'm thinking. If I had really seen heaven, and others had also, we would've had the same thoughts. Think about if he really saw heaven. Out logic ed.
Evidence 1: Jesus performed miracles in front of thousands.
Evidence 2: Many people like St. John had visions of God or heaven.
saying no that's not true! They just made it up because that is what you think. is an opinion not a fact.
This is what you say there happened to be a buck of crazy people who wrote down the same stuff and agreed with each other even though many had not met. that is some good logic by you.
All you are doing with the "God doesn't need evidence" thing is using it to make special pleading. If you don't have the evidence, you cannot claim that you need faith for it to work. It doesn't work that way. You must prove if the God exists or not, then we can talk.
My argument: What's your excuse? If you want me to believe in you, provide some evidence. It is impossible to back out of providing evidence because no evidence = man-made concept.
How about you die, go to hell or heaven and argue to the devil or God about how they are fake. see if that works out.
Ok, really? You are just making up stuff to say you don't need evidence. You NEED evidence to support a claim. Otherwise, we can't say it's not man-made
They must be proven with evidence. that statement is against what Jesus says. no wonder you don't believe in him. Now there is some evidence to God. Mostly it has to do with logic and faith.
Yes, I can choose not to be atheist. I chose this path because I find things must be proven with evidence.
It was hard in no small part due to the Catholic church
You chose to be atheist, and you can choose not to be also. I have not studied the crusades yet. I know the medieval time was equally hard for everyone.
Well, he's not a deity, because he won't forgive me just for being abnormal. In creationism, he created me atheist. And he hates me for creating me. The hypocrisy!
Now, the Christian Dark Ages were the medieval times. Most of their buildings were great, but took centuries to build. They didn't advance in too much technology. If scientists in the next Ages had something to work with from the Dark Ages, we could have had a big boost in technological advancement. But, most of what they did was in favor of Christianity. Except for the millions of video game ideas about knights and archers. They did not move on, so we are not left with anything. And, Christianity was pretty brutal back then. They went on 10 or so crusades (I think) to drive the Muslims out of Jerusalem. And guess what they did in the way? Destroy about every sign of civilization they came across.
An atheist never had a crusade.
God does not make visions to eeveryone. He will tell you after death, and it will be too late is you do not please him.
The Christian Dark ages?
I explained in the homosexuality debate. Go there
And, if God does not like the way I live, let him tell me, not you, me.
You don't understand. This happened in BILLIONS of galaxies. We worked. If another has worked, we would be there. There may be another galaxy that is debating about the exact same thing. We can't determine if that's true due to the giant hole in technological advancement left by the Christian Dark Ages. If we were farther into space, we could determine if we saw signs of life.
So it happened in BILLIONS of galaxies, some of them support life. We had worked. Look at it through a space traveler's perspective or something, not a human one.
pajrc where did the world come from? did it happen by chance? with no master designer?
Martin Luther did something similar to the pink unicorn when he claimed to have a vision from God.
Tradition is the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Many people have had visions wrote them down, and wrote what Jesus said. Jesus full filed the prophets so perfectly he had to be true.
REALLY???? TRADITION??? Ok, I can make a religion that holds many traditions. Is it right? NO!!! If I made a claim that the IPU (invisible pink unicorn) exists with no evidence, is it correct? Replace it with God. People will say I can't disprove it. But, there was no evidence supporting it, so the claim is incorrect until proven. A billion people being filled does not make something true, or just makes a billion fools. Don't say "God did it" unless you have proven it. There is no way to prove it, because it was a human made claim.
we know God did it.
We do have more. it is called Tradition
Also, just because something is unexplainable does NOT mean God did it. It just means we don't know.
Alex, you say the Bible is not wrong. Look at my latest 3 posts on the evolution debate. Come back and say you have more than the 2k year old book as buff explained. Then show the evidence.
God has revealed himself to us fully though Jesus Christ. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. do not be doubting Thomas.
I support your claim. I have never seen with my own eyes of our God. I have never seen a miracle happen that had holy-like remnants left behind. Humans created God. I am no atheist, nor am I a Christian. I am simply waiting for our true creators to reveal themselves, or we find up to date proof that they exist.
"that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet. 3:8; cf. Ps. 90:4), that light was created on the first day, but the sun was not created till the fourth day (Gen. 1:3, 16), and that Adam was told he would die the same "day" as he ate of the tree, yet he lived to be 930 years old (Gen. 2:17, 5:5).
the world was not created in one week.
Evolution proves that all life on this planet has been evolving for millions and millions of years. They were not created at the same time. they completed for life. some lived and spread, others failed and died. Humanity has existed for 200,000 years. long after most other types of animals existed. The world was not created in a week. we were not created as we are. we evolved from other homonids. there is mountains of evidence for this. the only argument for creationism is a 2000 year old book that with no supporting evidence. Christianity was invented by men. all religion was. to attempt to give meaning to our existence and explain things we couldn't understand. as science continues to explain all the things we needed religion for, religion is no longer needed. it only causes violence and hatred and ignorance.
Yes. you agree evelution has no idea where it started I do. God. he was there since the start of time. he created time and space and the earth. this concept is hard to explain and grab. it is impossible to fully comprehend in our human brains. You have to believe that God is real and he created everything. Plus the bible says so.
science hasn't proven where life started. there are theories but no real evidence. we are talking about vast amounts of time. Almost all of if before humans even existed.
No I am not. I am asking you to tell me where it all started with evolution of humans. I did not say humans evolved I said you said they did. Explain where it all started with evolution.
Are you saying the Bible is wrong? the Bible says that God made us as we are in his image. if you accept that we evolved even a little then the Bible is wrong.
Historybuff you are saying that humans evolved from non humans and they evolved from even less human creatures and so on how did the first forms of life start? was there always life?
where is this evidence for creationism? I have yet to hear anything that would even approach what I would consider evidence. It's usually just a preacher highlighting some of the areas science hasn't definitively proven yet. If you have some evidence I would love to hear it. all evidence we have been able to find proves that the earth is much older than any religious group will accept. It proved that all life evolved to the way it is now. This is directly contrary to the teachings of the Bible. therefore that part of the Bible is disproven. or at least so discredited that it should not be taught to children outside of a church.
disproved is a very far stretch, very few scientists believe in creation would be a far more accurate assessment.
and you are right in assessing that the Bible does not explain all things. but the things it does explain are true. just like you present evidence to show evolution, there is equal, if not greater evidence to prove God. neither one is able to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt. the question is whom do you trust more? God or man? as for me, I choose God
And the Bible fails to explain absolutely everything about how life came to be. Science doesn't claim to know everything. but it has explained a great deal and disproven creationism.
you are righy fossils don't exist in a vacuum, but petrified trees extending upwards and downward through several layers of strata cast serious doubt on long amounts of time needed for fossilization. that being said, all this still leads to the basic question of where it all came from? the Big bang and constant expand and conteact multiverse theories fail to explain the origin of all things.
Fossils don't exist in a vacuum. you find them under layers of soil generally. often you can estimate how long they've been there at a glance by the layers and changes in the soil. not to mention carbon dating and all other forms of scientific research. we can follow the changes in humans back through several different earlier versions of humans. if you were right. why would there be fosils of earlier branches of our family tree? did God created them first and then change his mind? or did he scatter these fossils all over the world just to screw with us? either way that God sounds like a jerk.
I am not debating fossils, I am saying that evolution is a theory, and yes, gravity is a theory. we don't know everything about it. just because we can prove it exists in its present form does not mean it has always been so. without a way to prove it has always been like it is now, it falls to theory status. and btw fossils can be formed amazingly fast so to say a fossil or even millions of them "prove" something, for creation or evolution, is a logical fallacy. you need more than a theory and something that can be changed and manipulated to prove a point.
if they are not humans like you said, then they are not humans.
Again. all scientific principles are theories. gravity is a theory but I don't think even the most zealous of religious nuts would deny gravity. there are millions of years of fossils. you can go see skeletons dozens of man kinds forbearers who are not entirely human. This is fact. no matter what any church says these fossils are facts. denying it only makes you look delusional.
I agree everything that exists comes from things that exist. no one knows how God came to be He was always there. if your they is right evelution has to start somewhere.
the Bible aside, evolution is NOT a fact. the definition of evolution .the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
admits itself that it is only a theory. if it were fact we would not have any revisions. again observation cannot prove but only confirm a hypothesis.
as to a creation event (Biblical or Big Bang) there has to be a point of origin. the Big Bang theory does not satisfactorily answer the basic question of where does everything come from. so again we are back to only theories
You are forgetting about the holy spirit who inspired the authers to write. Jesus knew Peter, John and Paul who wrote in the bible. I suggest you stop arguing until you can come up with facts. Besides the bible we have Tradition. Tradition is the true teaching of Christ and the Church, not in the bible.
there's simply no evidence that any entity can imagine, or wish something into being. by definition that is an incantation, magic. there's just no reason to believe that some sort of God created us as we are. everything that exists appears to come from things that already exist.
The Bible was written by men long after the death of Christ. even if the message was all from God it was written down and reorganized by men who had never met Jesus long after he was dead. So no the Bible is not the literal word of God. Evolution has been proven beyond doubt. if you choose to ignore that massive amount of evidence then no debate will convince you because you simply don't want to challenge your preconceived ideas. and then why are you bothering to debate at all?
The bible is not wrong it is the written word of God. Everything in the bible is true. I'm going to believe the all knowing all powerful one true God over a bunch of humans.
Even if we take your point. God did not create humans. We can trace our evolution a long way. if you wanted to argue that God created early mammals or fish or dinosaurs then we could have that debate. but science has proven that humans were not created as we are. that is directly contrary to the bible. the Bible is therefore wrong.
Animals did evolve from things, and humans got smarter and more civilized. but humans were always humans from the day God created them. take evolution and go back you will have to find something that started everything.
Evolution is proven. we have seen it in many other species. we can see it the remains of other hominids and early humans. Gravity is theory too but no one questions that. The bottom line is that the only way to refute evolution is to deny ALL the evidence in the world. We can follow human evolution back a very long way. It is very obvious how we evolved. Ignoring that makes you ignorant.
I was responding to historybuff saying it is a proven fact.
btw if it (evolution, specifically macro evolution) is a fact, why is it called the theory of evolution? answer, evolution can be observed but not proven
what did they evolve from. it had to be from a living thing right? Humans did not spring up randomly in the garden, God created humans in the garden.
Science has answered how humans came to be. In a word, evolution. It is proven fact. The origins of the universe are a little trickier as we are taking about vast amounts of time a space. But we can say with certainty that mankind did not spring up in a garden fully formed. They evolved over a long time.
that is true with the pagan beliefs. The Greeks and Romans and others, created false gods to explain things in nature. There is a one true God who created man in his own image. If there is no God how did the world come to be, and humans to be created.
since the early days man has told stories to explain why things are as they are. it is my belief that in order to explain EVERYTHING they decided upon divine beings that they told other created everything and everyone. and then religion is born.