The debate "God exist debate me" was started by
September 27, 2018, 10:06 am.
64 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 40 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
logical_bomb posted 94 arguments, Nemiroff posted 1 argument, crazybirdlady posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
Brynn posted 12 arguments, lovetodebateandthought posted 1 argument, Nemiroff posted 10 arguments to the disagreers part.
logical_bomb, Michael09, SavG_Tron, grvshukla, Sammy, crazybirdlady and 58 visitors agree.
Brynn, vanessa, lovetodebateandthought, Agustin4u, YEET, TalkativePeaches and 34 visitors disagree.
the golden ratio in quantum solid state mater :
Stars that Pulsate to the Golden Ratio
Phi and the Solar System
Cosmology and appearances of Phi
Golden Ratios in Energy Radiation and Vibrations
Time in Quantum Physics and Phi
thus things that you can't put it in evolution do you understand me now
am not gonna respond to anything until we finish the intelligent design
and about golden ratio are you claiming that creatures will not survive without golden ratio , that make things worse , this decrease the chance of evolution , you can think how much millions of years we will need to set the 1,618 in all bones structures
. and as you know the bones structures in animals are very different , and they all have golden ratio , if what you are claiming is true we must find a trillions of fossils have bones structure with golden ratio
. as i said before , assuming that natural selection may select the strongest structures in bones and shells , but how it will select sunflower because it had a really beautiful golden ratio in the top of it , why evolution will wast such effort for this and why natural selection will select this while other flowers can survive without it
. assuming that natural selection will select beautiful things how it can select galaxies and body temperature and quantum stat mater , you can't put this things in evolution
if wanna talk about conspiracy theory , i have really strong arguments , well the conspiracy theory is not excuse but it very logical because , just example : when you see the arguments against evolution and start watching debate it will look like bedtime stories , the question you will have why such a hoax is very popular
. ok am not gonna talk about the conspiracy right now , but you must know that you can't take a fair point of view from any topic without listen to their arguments , this how dogma work
. i will give really quick response : Jews believe that the non-jews are not humans just animals , only jews have the right to have a religion , they believe the world will be for them and all people will be slaves for them , and all that in the torah , am not sure if the torah in the Bible of Christians are the same for jews , but thers is a chapter talk about all the people will serve them
. am not going for details right now so let's complete the design thing
if a conspiracy theory had decisive evidence, it wouldnt be a conspiracy theory.
you can buy a scientist or an institution, but you wont buy everyone in the world. that just sounds like burning money for no reason. there is no logic here, just excuses.
you do realize that before britian and France restructured the Islam world, Jews and muslims got along splendidly? why do you think a religious group would even spread atheism? why would you even bring up Jews here because I didnt hear about a single experiment? and if "the Jews" were covering it up, why was it published in the 2006 article?... If I cite an experiment you never heard of but is readily available if you search, can I claim an Islamist cover up hiding the truth? rather than your experiment or your belief in god, it's your claim of a media conspiracy that I find completely ludicrous, and honestly embarassing.
as for the study itself, the next question is whether anyone other than emoto has been able to reproduce it. the peer review process is rigorous and slow, but that's what makes the results so confident.
the hearts electromagnetic field has nothing to do with liquids. it is the muscles that generate electrical activity, not the liquid. water doesnt have muscles, ion gradients, or any of the things that create electricity within our bodies, I dont see how you can connect the 2 in any way.
i have asked the question so i can continue , accepting the truth is not that hard , it's honorable ,
** wait how you can convince atheist that truth is good while the good itself is subjective ?
. how i can believe atheists experiments and the fossils they found then , and the example is here , did you know about piltdown fossil , did you know that some experiment are very expensive , some experiment they believe it wes true and they repeat it 29 later and they found it was a scam
you claiming that you know about cosmic constants , please am waiting for your respond , am sure atheism will turn to be a religion at this point
. i had to add some videos for the scientist opinions , i can't write walls of texts as you said , also there arguments need images
. are you sure you are reading all my arguments , because you are repeating things i have responded to , if you don't understand things you can just tell me ,
. and about golden ratio i have told you that your response make evolution worse , why
. because if ..... oh am tired from typing , the arguments down there
conspiracy theory have more evidences than you think , maybe you have watch some video talking about aliens or fake conspiracy theories , but that's not the real one , and am not gonna talk about now , but to let you know that in this time , if you have money you can buy anything , even science and scientists , you can make any non sense theory , ( we were dragons and we devolving to humans )
. and i can talk to forever about the abuse of science on this age
ok maybe i have showed you the wrong video , but the experiment is very real , and it shows the effect of the words on water
. to me is very convincing because i know that the heart have a electro magnetic field so maybe that effect water ,
. because also we in islam we were told to spell the quran on water and drink it
In 2003, [the magician] James Randi publicly offered Emoto one million dollars if his results can be reproduced in a double-blind study.
In 2006, Emoto published a paper together with Dean Radin and others in the peer-reviewed Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing
Dean Radin wrote:
The double-blind paper we published in 2006 was indeed peer-reviewed, and it showed a statistically significant difference between water that was "exposed" to intention vs. identical water set aside as a control. The magnitude of the observed effect was smaller than is implied in Emoto's books, but the direction of the effect was consistent with his claim.
As far as I know Emoto hasn't received the one million dollar check. Nor have I.
I shouldnt even call him a scientist
lol, that scientist in 2003 was offered 1 million dollars if he could reproduce the experiment under actually controlled conditions, he refused.
this isnt science. you should more closely vet your arguments
regarding your video on the experiment... the uniqueness of snowflakes has nothing to do with the composition of water. it has to do based on the wildly unique conditions each flake is formed under as it travels through various pressures, temperatures and wind conditions up and down our atmosphere and across many miles/kilometers. the very question that was the foundation for that experiment according to your video shows a lack of basic knowledge on the part of this "scientist".
there need not be a Jewish conspiracy to shut down nonsense single studies. science is based on multitude of peer reviews, even if logically sound (which this wasnt) a single study means absolutely nothing. it must be repeated, over and over. you do not understand science, or any part of what you view as your opponents.
if you do not know your opponent, you cannot hope to ever defeat him, that includes battles of logic and reason.
I have also lost alot of respect for you for citing of some nonsense scapegoat media control conspiracy theory because I didnt hear of a single experiment. although considering how condescending and falsely presumptive your initial posts were, I shouldnt be surprised.
before you lie to yourself that I am simply closed minded, I earlier mentioned a Muslim debater who actually succeeded in convincing me of the chance of God and to seek him (Ya3ya6), I bumped our thread so perhaps you may learn.
your reliance on videos to explain some of the most cliche and basic arguments (who doesnt know the fine tuning argument! I can explain it in 3 partial sentences, why 15 minutes of stupid video?) shows the immaturity of your arguments regardless of their validity. and your assumption that the only logical conclusion is me converting and there is nothing for you to learn only reveals your own closed mindedness. so no, I do not feel you accomplished anything. all of your arguments were long familiar to me, although you did educate me on some differences between Quran and the bible/Torah. thank you.
i just have question , until now did i increase the possibility of god existence for you , or am wasting my time , please i need that answer so i can continue
- 2 is not real number , truth is one it can't be more , just the way may have difference
the same conclusion from the big bang , if a light come from a room it must have a source of light , if we find a book there must be an author , and how you can convince yourself that the universe which is have more far intelligence than all the books can come from nothing , is that rational ?
about water experiment , of course you didn't know about , what do you expect from a media controlled by the Jews spreading atheism in the world ,
watch this :
the conclusion of the big bang is based off the simple finding that all objects in the universe are moving away from us... which if worked in reverse would them coming from a single point. it's not that hard of an observation to reproduce.
square root of 4 can be either 2 or -2. more complex equations have more possible answers. furthermore multiple equations can be used to solve a particular problem coming up with different answers.
noone can reproduce all experiments, but you are free to pick any. I have yet to find an experimentally proven theorem that has been properly peer reviewed by today's standards being rebuked. no *single* scientist, no *single* study is trustworthy. the collaborative, international, peer review system is trustworthy.
the scientific method was invented by Muslim scientist called ibn al-haythem Around 250 years before Roger Bacon :
. can you show me how math give you several possible answers
. you referring the word ( science ) to the observations experiments , if you do that , science contradict with itself , it will fail to prove any truth without logic
. actually why you believe in the big bang or evolution , why you believe in any theory if you didn't experiment it with yourself ,
. here the logic comes and the answer is
. the scientists did it
. do you believe in testimony
. can you prove that this scientist is trustworthy with this scientific method
. if we don't use deduction we will be like animals
. and epistemology is another talk just let focus on intelligent design
regarding the golden ratio, my point was that nature inevitable form simple, basic structures that are also the most stable.
you know how beehives are all almost perfect hexagon shapes? it's likely that many shapes developed, but the less stable beehive shapes would often collapse, and the bees would not survive long. eventually through natural selection, the bees that formed the most stable structure were the ones that survived: the hexagon.
likewise we can look at the nautilus shell. I'm sure many random shells were developed, but many were weak and would fall to predators easily. only the strongest most stable shape would eventually survive. and the golden ratio was that shape. once nature picks a successful shape, it cannot start over. it can improve, but it cant just restart from step one like a conscious being.
also, most of the golden ratios in nature are not exact but just close approximations as one would expect of nature, as perfect precision is not necessary, good enough is adequate. like fingerprints, no 2 shells are going to be exactly alike.
yes, no problem. as I said, real life comes first. welcome back.
I'll answer a few of your questions briefly but I'll focus on my golden ratio reasoning.
1. science is necessary to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. math and logic are good, but often give several possible answers only one of which is ultimately correct. and although it is necessary, it isnt always capable of proving everything, thus things like God remain a matter of faith.
2. the new atomic model isnt that new, but unlike astrophysics, there's few documentaries out there so most people are not aware. however the current quantum mechanical model with electron clouds within specific orbitals within organized electron shells is familiar to me. I believe it's at least 50 years old now.
I will definitely have to look up that water experiment
and I didn't understand what you trying to say about golden ratio
and about inside religion debate :
. believing in god is the basics of the basics of the basics , they have difference on details and i told why , because they haven't gather all the hadiths wich is the evidences , because they've been in different places and times , am talking about the fiqh imams ,
. and about other weird groups they don't debate because the Quran is unclear , the debate to try to put their ideologies and of course there is stupid people to follow them ,
. do you think that just believing in god or just burn in the right geographical location you will complete the test and enter paradise , no the test will continue until your death , even inside religion you must stick with the truth and don't let any some limited desires to make you follow some wrong ideologies
do you know that there's new atom model , the old model of solar system like was thrown away , the new model its like a source of energy
hi , sorry i was busy ,
ok i will set some points here :
. do you think that science is needed to prove god ?
. the most rational answer is : no , why , because if we need to be fully developed to find if god exist , what happen to the people before us , that's not fair , the very fair thing to prove god with , is the mind ? that's very rational , you can't prove god through some experiments , or absorb it , but with reasoning and deductive methods you can for all people in all ages
. and of course with science development we can find a lot of proofs that's wasn't there before , like : golden ration , cosmic Constance , big bang ,
. and about the nature of reality , there are a lot of proofs than you thought , just search about holographic universe its really taking place now , am not gonna lie i haven't done a big research but here what i remember about physics discoveries :
. matter 99,9 % empty
. things are not there when you don't look at them
. and i remember a experiment done by Japanese dr masaru emoto about water , he find that consciousness affect water
also welcome, and this place is pretty informal so feel free to resurrect any thread you like or make new ones.
I believe you are referring to the double slit experiment. I hate to get stuck on semantics, but in the case of science its often important, so please dont mind if I make a few corrections assuming we are talking about the same experiment.
it's not thought that affects matter, it's the act of observation. also it isnt a liquid vs solid but wave vs particle. liquid, solid and gas are based on the arrangements of particles, so in essence you are considering even gas as "solid" because every gas is made of particles. and waves arent always liquid (sound waves, gravity waves).
essentially what quantum mechanics says is that we cant measure motion and location at the same time. the best analogy I can make is a camera zoom. you can either zoom in on a person and see all the details while missing the situation around them, or you can zoom out and see the situation but lose all the details. you can never have both, its physically impossible. no matter how much technology advances, even if we can make out incredible detail while zoomed out, we will always be able to see even more detail while zooming in and missing the surrounding information. in other words, when we observe the experiment, we see the particle where it is, but not its path, whereas if we dont, we see the path but not its final destination.
The analogy isnt perfect because quantum mechanics is weird, illogical, and functions mostly through probability. if it wasnt for the spectacular accuracy of its predictions, I doubt anyone would believe the theory.
I dont think this points to God, but it is my belief that God is 100% unprovable and undisprovable. God is a matter of faith.
As the last post was 3 days ago, i don't know if this debate is still in session. But as both a believer and a very scientific person, I have done some research and true none of it is going to be 100 foolproof. But as far as I know that doesn't exist. So, if you are still reading this here is my proof.
there is an experiment, I'm not sure what it's called but you can potentially look it up for proof. in the experiment scientists fired an atom at a wall with a hole in it to see if particles were solid or liquid. it responded as a liquid but. when they watched the experiment it acted as a solid. They repeated it several times and eventually concluded that when viewed by a conscious mind matter is denser. And as the cause of the big bang is still in debate on very logical conclusion is that some conscious mind started the whole thing because if not then why would the very building blocks of existence that have been around since long before the planet itself respond to thought in such a way. it has no scientific or rational explanation but that something made it that way.
what do you think? thank you for listening to my thoughts
once again. OBVIOUSLY they do not debate who is God and whether he exists, it would be stupid to think otherwise. the same is true of inter-any religion debates. claiming they don't disagree on basics is a weak response and is OBVIOUS. its upsetting that you are consistently missing the point. any religious or secular inter-discipline debate is about details as everyone agrees on the basics. if the commandments are perfect, why is there ANY disagreement?
and yes, the golden ratio is a strong argument. much like crystals form into similar, stable, lowest energy forms, one would expect natural events to unfold consistently to the most stable, lowest energy form, like the golden ratio.
you do like to assume alot considering you didnt respond at all to my golden ratio argument or any of its points. see the paragraph above.
the fine tuned universe :
Richard Dawkins response :
let get back to fine tuning , golden ratio is very strong argument so let move to :
. Physical Cosmic Constants
then debunking eyes faults or blind watchmaker
. if morals are the same and humans minds are the same and the god is one why would there an another path , and how it look like
. and as i said god sent 124,000 massenger to humans when the communications was rare , but when the humans development grow , god sent his last messenger , even that the media try to make islam look like a relegion of terrorism but it had the must population in the world , and you can see that islam in its beginning was growing very very fast watch this : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AvFl6UBZLv4&itct=CBgQpDAYACITCKjU04m8-90CFUxr4AodsqMO61IQcmVsaWdpb25zIGdyb3d0aA%3D%3D&hl=en&gl=DZ&client=mv-google
Muslim population 2,18 billion people :
islam fastest growing religion :
. and as i said before if anyone never heard of islam he will not be judged and he will do the test again , in afterlife , but islam is the only religion , all the religions was islam , Christianity was islam but when the devil corrupt it it becomes Christianity , it's like if if islam corrupted by shia it's name will be shia , but islam can't be corrupted it preserved by god because it's the last message before end days , the Christianity corrupted because god give the responsibility to Christians
. so the devil when he try to corrupt islam he can't so he try to put groups and ideologies that misrepresent the evidences from the quran
. all the prophets had the same message and the same human believe system but their fiqh had some difference because its refer to human needs that changes with time , the human today not the human 5000 year ago
. if you use your mind that god give you , you will come to the conclusion that Islam is more than the rational path
and the imams of schools you mentioned never debate , they have little deferences in little details , like how to raise your hand in prayer and the sayings but
1 . they never have deference about the quran , because its one , its in the hadith
. and those imam are in different times , and why they have deference in Hadith , wich mean the words and actions of prophet Mohammed peace be upon him : because in those times the Muslims gather the hadith from deferent places so there are imams doesn't know about some hadith , and others know , so they have deference , but with time the Muslims after them establish at the all hadith and the rules to know the authentication of the hadith and the principals of fiqh to fit in moderns times
. and of course there is people who are fanatic to some schools , but we don't follow any school we follow evidence
i didnt say you have get your information from atheist , i just give you exmp that (( if you wanna learn about islam don't go to atheist , if you want to learn about evolution don't go to creationist )) because you no one can get the truth from just one side
2. There are to type of imam , the one who lead in prayer wich anyone can do it if he just memorized some quran , 2 , the imam that mean a very knowledgeable man of religion , in fiqh and aqida and hadith and arabic language and hadith terms , and the imam is not a leader to tell what to do , he just teach people and answer questions with the evidence from the quran and authentic hadith
and no the quran is not a handbook , you can take simple information from it , its the word of God , you can get a lot of information and wisdom from just one page ,
. the quran are very clear and you haven't give me something not clear , the knowledge of afterlife is large that what you mean , and of course we need teachers , exmp: you cant understand all quantum mechanics in simple video , you need teachers
. that's how the Divine knowledge work , god create the knowledge of this life and the knowledge of afterlife , and you can't worship god without knowing him , that's why you have asked so much questions , if he created a lot of knowledge in this world why he will create a small knowledge about the other world which is the important
. and god love the man who seek the Divine knowledge and he open to him a path to paradise , and you know that Muslims before Mongolian invasion had the biggest libraries in the world in all sciences
. because the Divine knowledge in this life its a mental thing , but in afterlife will manifest , if you deep think about afterlife you will find it reflect your heart and what you have gathered from this world , Divine knowledge will manifest into a light , ignorance will manifest into a darkness
if you are full of happiness and pleasures in your heart you will enter paradise
a break from the debate. I wish to tell you a theory that may bring our beliefs out of conflict and into harmony. just a theory of course.
perhaps God did not intend for all men to follow the same path. otherwise why did he reveal the Quran to only a single group in a single region without any way to communicate the message other regions. either he forsake the rest of the world, or he had other tasks and expectations from them, along with their own prophets with their own message.
you (sorry for assuming) were born into a Muslim family, meant to walk the path of islam, while others were given a different path.
I came up with this idea during another debate. I have no evidence or further arguments for it. just an idea I wanted to put out there.
is it possible to separate your ideas into paragraphs? its difficult to read and respond to walls of text.
how can imam be a simple scholar when the very word means leader.
and their primary form of knowledge is religious knowledge... which if it was made by a supreme being, should be clear and obvious to any lay person willing to listen. no imam should be necessary
I didnt get my information from an atheists. how do you know where I got my info from without asking. you are running on many assumptions, I would appreciate it if you wouldnt. if i say something wrong, correct me and I will thank you, but please do not play with assumptions.
they do not debate about belief OBVIOUSLY. they are off the same faith. they debate how to believe. because the details are for some reason, unclear. Why they are unclear is my question.
"Fiqh deals with the observance of rituals, morals and social legislation in Islam."
there are apparently 4 different schools of fiqh just within modern sunni.
ok you are extremely skeptic
. no , if every creature have its ratio , it will be closest to say its randomly from nature or evolution , i mean individuality is the trademark of any artist designer or architect , unique beauty is better than just beauty
. but its not just creatures its in , bones structure galaxies , cells , dna , body temperature , energy radiation and vibration , quantum solid state matter , why its all that , its very strong argument
. and i don't think golden ratio fit in evolution bedtime stories , why sunflower have such golden ratio pattern , how the cells know the exact angles ? and why , and why the same pattern is in galaxies , i mean its survival of the fittest ? why thers is no malformed creature , why we don't have an eye close to the lift ear and eye in the middle of the face , in these form creatures can survive , its survival for the fittest not for the more beautiful !
. and you say that maybe stability at 1,618 , that mean we should find fossils are not in that stability point : 1,618 , that got chopped by natural selection , because it's not stable
. and i don't see why it's not stable for sunflower to have a ugly pattern , it can just survive , wait , what about galaxies they can't reproduce , how do they get that golden ration , or the stable pattern
. the argument get stronger
. i didn't understand what you said about human body
. note : i don't have faith in evolution
and the schools you mentioned are not debating about believe , its ( fiqh ) i dont know how it mean in English ,
but if you truly know :
. did the imams actually debate ?
. why they debate ?
I guess we will revisit the torture question later in order to focus on fine tuning.
the golden ratio is truly fascinating. there are many such mathematical wonders. however, one must ask: which conclusion does that point to? if God made all as is, then I would expect every creature to be quite unique, tailor made, with few repeating patterns in nature. obviously God could do whatever, including emulating (or creating) natural evolution.... however the natural explanation does not have such flexibility. so does the golden ratio fit with natural evolution?
I believe it does. nature tends to stick to certain shapes, particularly the most stable ones. whether it is the structure of crystals or the hexagons of a bee hive, nature is VERY consistent with few variations, as one would expect from spontaneous events. so having the same ratio appear repeatedly would fit perfectly. God can emulate it as well, but he can do anything, nature would only have this 1 path of consistency, and that is what we see. thus the golden ratio creates a very stable shell. if the proportions were all over the place, weak points would exist, and the creature would not survive to reproduce.
furthermore the link to the ratio of the human body had math wizardry where they pretended to use the number 5, 5 times, but 4 of them were 0.5, and they got to pick the operations between them to get the result. that's not clear perfect coincidence, that's like people seeking patterns in the bible.... they will find whatever they look for in ever complex algorithms and a giant book. even if it isnt actually there.
as to the video, it's in Arabic, I'm sorry but I could not understand. It's on the same topic so I'm hoping my argument will still apply.
imams are not priest , they are scholar , that mean someone who have a lot of knowledge , when you have a question instead searching in a lots of books you just ask him , but we Muslims must seek knowledge
no no and no , you truly talking about something you don't know , ok just tell me where you get this information
. a little advice if you wanna learn about islam don't go to atheist , if you want to learn about evolution don't go to creationist
that why people have deferent ideology , they don't hear the argument of the opponent
full reply coming, likely tomorrow...
Islam does have priests, they are called imams, Jews have rabbies, Buddhists have bhikkus, etc. let us not get stuck on semantics.
as for debate, do you deny the existence of "Ahl al-Ra'i" vs "Ahl al-hadith"?
or the schools of Hanafi, Zahirite, Shafi'ite, Malikite, and Hanbalite?
did they not often debate over the Fiqh?
I believe instructions created by an almighty would be easily understandable with zero disagreement by all who choose to follow it. that is not the case.
the video is just a trial check this for more :
ok i have very strong argument its a sign from god , i cant show it without video it require images , watch this :
ok lets talk about fine tuning
lol we have write almost a book
and that what am trying to tell you , if you use the tools the god give you you will find their must be a religion , and the quran must be from god , and if its proven to be true , you must believe what it said about the unseen things that you can't reach with your mind , exmpl : you can't see or understand what are in a place you didn't go to it , but if someone proven that he trustworthy and and it's illogical to lie , you must trust him
. and no , the punishment are vary from one to other
. the quran are very clear but the word of god must be meaningful not like any human books , just give me one thing is not clear , and there is no debates , and there is no priest in isalm , you talking about something you don't know
. the major muslim population 90 % wich are sunni believe in the same thing , the extremist groups like shia claim that the quran have hiden meaning we don't see and they interpretat it at what they desire , and others may have ideologies and try to convince people with some verses from quran to support their argument , but their are verses against their ideology , so the scholar respond to them
. and i challenge you to give me one contradiction from the quran ,
. there is no priest in islam to follow him or something like , we all the same must learn and seek knowledge , there are scholar may people ask
. shia actually created by jews
just to complete my view about suffering :
1 . as i said before , in normal people view who have a good life , if we don't see people who suffer from illness , we can't see the beauty of health , just understand this rule ( the beauty of thing can't be seen without the opposite ) , and we know that not the most of us have illness or
2 . actually the life of a man who suffer and doesn't believe in god will be a hell , but believing give him a hope , not a hope but certainty that he will be in the best place after death , his suffering look like nothing comparing to eternal life in paradise , rather than living in meaningless random world blaming his luck that's why the non-believers commit suicide because their life like a hell
3 your thesis is in the wrong way , let assume that a man who suffer in his life , he doesn't believe in god , and a man come to him and show him the right path that God will reward him for this , what will stop him from believing if the evidence are clear , he won't lose anything but gaining the hope and happiness
4 . reward are not nebulous , if their a afterlife , why god won't tell us how it's like , and he mentioned everything in the quran ,
5 , again there is a deference between ( he don't know ) and a person who disbelieve even that god show him signs and evidences and the right path again and again and again because he doesn't like the truth until his death , if he don't know the test will be repeated
6 . god punish the people who disbelieve , don't make it just ( lacking faith ) it's burying faith and trying to hide the evidences and run from the truth , because their stupid limited desires , they accept to put their souls for the test than they are responsible , and disbelieving in god have huge consequences in this world , not just for the one who disbelieve but anyone around him and his children and the children and grandchildren and so on , all this on moral level , its like he murdered everyone ,
. and we can talk about the consequences of moral without believe latter
I will outright dismiss #3 (morals) as they do not prove God. rather it is the reverse, if you do happen to prove God, then the morals will become objective in light of that. however, until God is proven, those morals are as subjective as anyone elses morals.
#1 cause and effect I feel we adequately explored. your decision that God can be uncaused, but the multiverse cannot be seems like a double standard that I cannot agree with.
so let us focus on #3, the fine tuning. I do not see animal bodies as anywhere near fine tuned. an argument based on the eye was made earlier. I will reply to that post, so just click the "replied to" button at the top right of this post to see it.
in addition to the eye there is the question of why so many extinctions, and the simple to complex chronological consistency of the fossil record. I can make any of these arguments or others in greater detail, but I feel the eye is a particularly strong argument.
. quran and holy books
. definition of God , your previous questions
. your supernatural , or aliens etc
i will answer all your questions believe me , but we can't talk on random topics at one time without any arrangement so i will answer your questions for last time and we turn to the principal proofs like this :
. proving god existence , cause and effect
. if the universe are fine tuned or not
etc , do you agree
or you can choose one topic
I cant see or understand what is hidden, why would I assume it is true? if its unseen then I will make the best guess using the tools that could only have come from god: my mind, my logic, and my conscious.
some random book, especially one with nonsensical, irrelevant rules, with everlasting punishment is inherently suspicious. I dont know where the book came from but my conscience and mind have only 1 source. (assuming a god)
one who is born to fatal and painful illness may be rewarded after he dies, but he has not obligation to love a creator who put him in such pain, especially if that reward is nebulous, and possibly imaginary. you believe it is true, but he who is suffering does not know and has no reason to believe. and any God who punishes those suffering for lacking faith is evil.
furthermore, what of those who eat pork, dont fast, of just pray in their hearts instead of on some random schedule. are they worthy of the same punishment as mass murderers? why are they being punished at all?
I do not believe the Quran is the word of God. the word of God would be clear and not need debate amongst priests to decipher. it would be clear to all with no need for a clergy.
as you said before , logic can't show you the unseen , you can't see what behind the wall , but if there are camera that record everything , you can understand what behind
well about innocent people :
. anything you will face in your life that cause pain , god will reward you for it or forgive your sins
remember , ( pain is growth ) it mean the problems make you stronger ,
. but the people who are murdered by criminals or natural disasters , they will go to paradise instantly without any judgement in any kind , ( but that for believers ) you can see how this affect your psychology
. I don't know much for disbelievers , but what i do know , that god may punish believer or disbeliever for their sins in this life , and to forgive it in the next life , however punishment in this life is are not compatible with the hell
. and the non believers are degrees in afterlife punishment , they are not the same
i don't know why you will believe what am saying , i don't need to prove this answers , i need to prove the quran is the word of god , because the answers is there
, do you agree with that
I'm sorry, I dont use facebook. I dont trust them, and it's an absolute black hole for time and attention and I have enough distractions.
no worries, real world comes first. do what you have to do, I'll likely be here.
. can you just give me your Facebook name or something , because i will have some work soon , and really don't have time
I much prefer text articles. much easier to follow, find references, etc. pausing the right frame is not that easy when the information Is only up for 1 second and youtube crashes if I rewind constantly. if its easy for you, provide me the passage and I will 100% respond.
I have already promised a fellow debater to try talking with god. did it once, did not work, although my mind and heart were greatly distracted at the time. I will try again, however I must reiterate that finding God and finding a specific religion are very different things. it is very possible that God exists and yet none of the flawed humans actually understood his message, or that he had set everything in motion properly and there was no necessity for conscious following. aka, he didnt inspire any of the religions.
even if I do find God, attaching him to any religion, much less a specific 1, is unlikely. the religions are far too flawed and their view of God is far too contradictory.
please respond to my post about the innocent people who burn with stalin and why they are punished. that is not a description of a good God.
listen to this bro :
i have a little experiment for you , just ask the god , and tell him , if you are existed prove me , if he prove you just ask him to guide to the right path ,
. don't reply for this , it's just for you
. (( the video moves off the Quran lines too fast for me to judge how relevant they are. even if mountains do have a root... they dont hold the earth. that's stupid. and I've never heard of these "roots" )) are you serious ! ok even if you don't have pause button to see quran lines , choose any search engine and type quran scientific miracles ,
. and if you didn't hear that mountains have root , look here https://www.livescience.com/6595-depth-himalayan-mountain-roots-revealed.html
. mountain stabilized the earth :
. ok i am just waiting to explain that
. how they know that the iron is not from the earth
. can you just give me your Facebook name or something , because i will have some work soon
I think we should cut down a few topics. this is getting difficult to reply to. lol
stalin is not the only one who must suffer.
alongside murderers, rapists, and dictatoes you have people who simply lack faith without evidence, eat the wrong food, or drink alcohol with friends.
or who have faith but dont want to gather up on a schedule and bow repeatedly. maybe people who choose to thank God in their own way, in their hearts with a smile. how about people born with incurable diseases or orphaned by war that dont exactly have alot to be thankful for. why are they tortured by this vain dictator?
I'm curious if islam has varied punishments and rewards, although I would still question why any of those people are punished at all.
btw, I do not declare God evil. I am declaring religion wrong. not in their broad message, but in their random stupid small rules and declared consequences. the prophets themselves are often great role models, ethicists, and philosophers.
the eye would be certainly expensive and advanced, yet not increasingly within human ability. bionic eyes are relatively close to market, and could improve on the supposedly perfect design.
you see when speaking of perfection, proving something is beyond humans is not convincing. the presence of a flaw is enough to shatter everything. the fluid in our eye is a clear design flaw that must later be compensated by our brains. if you have to compensate for a flaw, the design is not perfect, that is assuming God made it as is and this is the final form.
there is salvation for perfection, for this is an imperfect world that is ever changing, therefore no single form could ever be perfect. an ever changing, ever adapting form, in my opinion, is the perfect solution. whether it's natural evolution, or creation through evolution, evolution is a fact.
in many religions, not necessarily islam, the devil figure is labeled as "the great deceiver". I'm afraid if the supernatural is true, and considering how much pain and violence organized religion has caused, I would not be surprised if you have all been deceived.
you seem to be very concerned with the form God took in this little animation, and completely ignoring the message he spoke, so I will focus on the message with some quotes.
"why would I want people worshipping me?"
"you have so much fear, God fearing us an actual word and it's supposed to be a good thing! is that what you think I want? fear?"
"why would you worship someone who tortures people? do you think I am a monster?"
"you could have faith that your creator will also have integrity instead of trusting humans who claim to speak for (him)"
"since when does love involve torturing people for eternity?"
the God of religions does not sound like a good God. even if he were real, I would not want to worship him.
and why you think that religious people believe god is monster
. am i evil if i believe that criminals deserve punishment ? , am i evil if i believe that god is the ultimate justice ? do you think that Stalin who murdered 50 million people will simply die and resting in peace , what if Stalin murdered your children and family and your friends , you can imagine how much hate he gather from families , well i believe that disbelieving in god have worse consequences than murdering 50 million people ,
. actually the punishment is just a law in afterlife , god will not punish you himself , the god who set the laws in this life is the god who set it in afterlife , if you throw yourself from 9th floor ? you can't blame god for it , because you who have the freewill
. we don't fear god because he is a monster ? we fear our bad deeds consequences ,
. religious people living in fear doesn't make sense , if you live in 9th floor do you feel afraid , no until you decide to try flying with your hands
. Worship is the food of hearts and souls, and your body needs food, your soul also needs its food, and there is nothing better than turning to God and praying to Him is a refuge for you , telling him about your problems and ask Him to help you and forgive your sins and asking to enter Paradise and tell him That you love him and that you will do anything he wants, and will not want anything but to benefit yourself , and this life is very tricky , makes you believe that you can do something without God, your body also trick you that it is just material, but the fact that there are behind it a spirit
. Again why we need to worship god
. Behavioral worship: Because we need Morals ??in our lives and our behavior , without him there is no reference to morals
. Worship of prostration or praying :
. food for the souls,
. our recognition of the truth and this
. passing the test makes us win Paradise
Why does God want us to worship Him?
. challenging us
. Because God wants His people to embrace the truth
. And it is good for us
What is the meaning of food for the lives and will this win something:
. Feeding the soul increase your self-discipline , it's like make your soul have more control on you body
. give you the power to keep away from sin
. Make you hate the sin of your nature
. It is a spiritual pleasure that I can not prove until you experience it
# please just stop asking questions that comes after proving god existence
# i meant the video with the shallow view
. If the eye was a camera for sale it would be priced $35,268,799
look why :
. and we will talk about ? the body faults hoax latter
. Without God, you will not be able to do anything , but life is deceiving. You look like you can do something on your own, but the truth is not. You can say I can work and buy food for myself, who came with the muscles you have, where this food comes from, here you must recognize God gifts to you, exmpl : in an pc application or a game if you think that pressing a button make that character jump You are wrong because there are a bunch of programming and coding behind it , to move that image in y , x ,z view, to change the character frames and animations , all what you have is free will, you are very systematic , How you breathe automatically and your heart beats alone and your immune system works alone, worship does not have any insult because its your god your Creator , There is nothing better than worshiping God, but the refusal to worship and live like animals, eat, drink and sleep in an insult to the human being , the worship is the submission to the truth, and this is what God wants you to do , he doesn't want just movements and actions , but what behind that actions in your heart , and If you truly admit that you are nothing without God, worship is a challenge of this belief, and the greatest obstacle to this challenge is the pride and arrogace , its the rejection of the truth , because you are trying to take what's not belong to you , and arrogance is the first sin in the universe, When God tested the angels to prostrate to Adam , they did it , except the devil, he thought that he is better than Adam , because he was created from fire and Adam from clay, but the fact is that the devil did not create himself, why he give value to himself more than Adam, the fact that value is comes from God , when devil reject to prostrat to Adam is like he give himself something doesn't belong to him ,
. If I believe with my heart why the movements:
If you really think so, what prevents you to worship your Creator, actually this is proof of your sincerity , the believe must be challenged
. Do you know what the meaning of Islam means to surrender to God of our own free will
do you think he will be upset if all people hate him , god doesn't need anything , if all people from the beginning of the earth to now power 999 love him he will gain nothing , actually he doesn't gain or learn because he have everything anf know everything , we who need to worship him , the worship is a high level of love and glorification , God doesn't need but he want there is a deference
. why we need to worship God
. worship is not just in prostrating or praying but it reflect in all our behaviors how we live how we treat eachother if you treat others kindly that's a worship , if you stop drinking alcohol that's a worship ,
. We also need it because without these behaviors we will not be a reference to ethics and we will hurt ourselves and hurt others
. Why do you believe that the worship of God is insulting, the insulting thing is worshiping a creature, worshiping a creature or atheism the same sin , worshiping a creature is insulting because , first it's not worth worshiping secondly compared to you you have value how to humiliate yourself for it
. But there is nothing insulting about the worship of God, why, first if there is someone worthy of worship and glorification and love it will be God, secondly in worship you surrender to God and your recognition that you are nothing without God because you really are and that you recognize that you belongs to him , and he own you , Did you buy your body Did you buy your family Did you buy the air you breathe,
. If the eye was a camera for sale it would
does God need our worship or our love :
no of course , who said that god need our worship or our love , he doesn't need anything , do you think that he will be happy if all the people in the world love him ,
ok , i didn't just focus on how the god look in the video but some people get angry if you make joke of someone they love , so just let me complet my point
. sure god can take any form , he can do anything , but that doesn't mean he do whatever he can , that's how we respond to Christians , we say how can god be born from a women womb and stay 9 month inside her chemical liquids things , and she will feed him and take care of him , they say well he can , but that's contadict with his greatness and magnificence and Majesty and uniqueness , if you can pee in public that doesn't mean you will do it ,
. there are 99 perfection we refer to we Muslims as the 99 names of god , but that doesn't mean that god have 99 perfections there perfections we can't understand because its not in our world
. and god take the form of an old guy look like george carlin wearing white jacket yes it doesn't contradict with mercy but it contradict with uniqueness , greatness because a old guy it's limited greatness and god have unlimited greatness , unlimited beauty , majesty ,
. but that doesn't mean that we will not see god , god will give the good people the ability to see god in paradise , and when they see him they forget all what inside paradise , ( god can be seen but can't be perceivable )
i didn't understand ( the gender was 1/2 chance for either )
. if you have questions am here
may I ask, if a person is simply spiritual, believes in the supernatural, kinda like shinto or native american religions... would you consider them theists?
you made the claim that atheists are all materialistic, and I should a group of atheists that rejected materialism. I'd say that's a strong argument.
the problem isnt a lack of arguments but a bad definition on your part.
saying someone is an atheists tells you NOTHING about what they do believe. the term atheist revolves around a LACK of belief, and doesnt identify anything about what the people actually do believe.
I hope you can come to understand that point so we can move on.
many atheists do worship materialism and accept science.
many theists also worship materialism and accept science.
so I'm sorry to say. but in my view it is you who has a weak argument and is constantly overlooking key points I am trying to make like this one.
your definition of atheist is wrong. not all atheists worship money. that is broad, simplified, and foolish assumption. also, very wrong.
ok i will address your comments so don't respond until i finish because we can't talk about deferent topics at the same time
ok sorry I didn't mean to avoid anything , i just want to address some point ,
. actually what doing here is try to get a fair position for atheism and to know if my believe is completely right , because i think that the dogma comes when you don't hear the others arguments and ideology ,
. i well be honest with if you give me any good arguments , but until now you haven't except the cause and effect puzzle which we will solve latter
so before atheism there was no materialism? lol, you need to open a history book.
how do you explain American hippies of the 60s who rejected materialism and the corporate money race.
to.put it simply, your definition and assumptions of atheism are completely wrong.
what is a very shallow view of religion?
if you wish to reply to a specific post I made, it is easier if you press the reply button in my post and I will know exactly what you are talking about.
the human body is far from impeccable. why is the eye full of water with the exact same refraction index as sea water?
the video moves off the Quran lines too fast for me to judge how relevant they are. even if mountains do have a root... they dont hold the earth. that's stupid. and I've never heard of these "roots"
I'm sure God can take any form. it is not unreasonable for him to take our form to communicate easier with us.... the gender was 1/2 chance for either, and do you expect him to wear pink or black? I think white is quite appropriate.
however, I do not know why you are focusing just on his looks in a video that is all about his message?
do you think God wants people to fear him first and love him second? for everyone to prostrate before him? do you really think he is like some vain human ruler obsessed with appearance of power and the subjugation of those beneath them?
that is not a good God.
the religious people didnt look dumb, they were just awestruck. they are not the point. the point is what God was saying, something you seem to actively be avoiding.
the consequences is not just stop on you , because if you disbelief you will affect your family and friends and your children and they affect others , so your disbelief harm others more than if you lie and steal or even kill
. disbelieving in god is tha worst thing ever , because of its consequences , atheism = materialism , and materialism don't know mercy , i don't afraid if atheism spread more in the world , it will be a good lessons for anyone who have mind , materialism provide excuses for any criminals , why you will punish anyone for something seems wrong for you , he see it good
. i saw your video , religious people look so dumb , why you think that god look like an old man wearing white jacket ,
god is not a material thing , he is not a mole nor a female , god beyond our imagination , because our imagination comes from what we have seen before ,
exmpl : there is 7 or 8 principal colors we see , from them comes all other colors , can you imagine a new color or 2 or 9 , can you imagine 4th dimension or 5th
. and no god don't judge you if you haven't receive the message and the signs , but you well be retested , the evilest bad deed human can make is knowing the truth and try to hide it and disregard it because it doesn't match his desires , so god will show you the signs but tje devil will try to confuse you , he will tell you to procrastinate about searching or make you feel its boring and try to keep you in the comfort zone ,
. god has sent 124,000 prophets to humans , before our age because they didn't have communications and globalization like our age
. god had create humans before he test them ,when he create adam he he take us out before this life , and he say am i not you lord , they say , yes we bear witness
Thats why the idea if god is stick in our subconscious mind
. god create the test , then he offer it to other creatures , but they refuse to undertake it , being afraid therefore but stupid humans like me and you undertook it and accept it ,
. did you watch ( Muslims spoken word )
there are some Quran miracles there , how you explain it , 1400 y ago how did they know :
. iron is not from the earth
. the details description of humans embryo
. the mountains as pegs that hold the earth
. the expansion of the universe
. the lowest point on earth
and many many more we can talk about latter
. just understand that the Quran is not a book of science or biology or astronomy , is a book of life , it give you all things worth knowing , and give answers to all philosophical questions , the scientific miracles is signs from god to you
wow , that's very shallow point of view in god and religion , i think that your disbelief comes from your misunderstanding not from the lack of evidence
ok I'll give you some logic :
1 . # the wisdom , if there is a god , he should be the all wisdom , why he would create everything in vain without any purpose or a cause , and in his creation we see that everything has a purpose , he create the sun to give us the light and warmth , the night to sleep , the atmosphere to protect the earth , the water for living things , for plant and grass and trees , grass for animals , from animals we get food and cloths , and why everything seems created and subjugated for us , the only gap there are is ( what we are doing here , where we gonna go , what's the purpose of life ) its like you wake up in a company and you asking others what we are doing here and they say , no just do like others go with the flow
. 2 # the juatice , why he would let criminals or dictators or anyone who take the rights of others , why he let them simply live and die without any judgment that's very unfair , so there is must be a judgment day
. 3 # the mercy , god must help others in their lifes , if he very merciful , he must show us , why we created and how to live our lives with happiness , and religion based on that , islam teach you to take out all the real benefits from your existence before you die , the real benefits , islam teach you to be happy no matter what happen , even if you are poor weak sick man ( experienced myself ) , your happiness will comes not from material world , wich we'll talk about latter , islam teach you to help others to be tolerance to give charity to be good with your family to good with yourself , to not harm yourself because it's a bad deed , that's why drinking alcohol or smoking or anythy you harm yourself with is not allowed it's a bad deed ,
if god is justice and mercury and there is a judgment day , why he didn't let them know about it so they can keep away from bad things
. does god love to see his creatures , a religious help eachother and and spread the goodness , or material creatures who destroy themselves , humans can't live like animals because god give them so much power , one human can destroy all humanity
to be honest, a 2 hour long linguistic examination of a foreign language is less then thrilling. and I agree with most of that poetry video's message.
earlier you equated atheism with science.
are you again equating a simple lack of belief in something, with the worship of money? greed is bad, no duh. that's not a religion only view.
*obsession* with money is a majority sin that crosses groups and faiths. people who reject the endless race also exist, in all groups. how many religious people ended up succumbing to their greed? the clergy are not saints! much less the masses of believers. it is not just to blame a single group for sins of all humanity.
how do you feel about the view of God expressed in my link?
muslims meaning of life
some linguistic miracles :
if there truly is a nothingness without time then it will remain so, for without time, nothing changes. states change in time.
i have great responses but sorry i am just have some work this week ,i am not escaping i will be back soon , and i have some arguments you can search about debunking it :
. golden ration
. fine tuning universe
. quran linguistic miracles , scientific miracles , numerical miracles
you define nothing as lack space time and matter
that's not ( nothing ), actual nothing lack :
. quantum states
. law of physics
nothing is the lack of everything
whether it is God or natural, both come down to either:
1. creation out of nothing (universe suddenly came from nothing or god suddenly came from nothing)
2. infinite regression (reality always existed or God always existed)
both end with the same 2 problems. and neither version is satisfactory (to me at least). this includes both the God and the natural version.
mathematics does not dictate a beginning. infinity is a mathematical concept. even if it doesnt sound good logically. my solution has the same problem, but instead of a series of events, it's simply 2 events on repeat. emptiness is unstable due to quantum fluctuations, thus things come to be. things are unstable due to dark energy, thus things are ripped into nothingness. and then repeat. rather than being a domino chain, it's like a see-saw constantly moving between 2 points. each causes the other.
as for your domino analogy, there certainly needs to be a cause, however your point of origin is subjective. you claim that God is the uncaused cause but I see no reason why he would be uncaused. you said it is because he is outside of time, well then he is static and will never be able to move or affect anything. I reject the notion of being outside time whether it is used to support God (by you) or attack God (by Stephen hawking) because the concept of change without time is contradictory.
if we see existence as a board of stones on a stormy sea. wave comes in from the left, all the dominoes shift to one side and we have creation, wave passes to the right, they swing back towards nothingness, wave comes again, repeat. the wave itself is the uncaused cause. no series of events in a chain, just moving between 2 points.
asking what made the waves is valid, but is the same as asking what made God.
I guess this could be seen like the asian concept of yin and yang, a balance between dark energy and quantum fluctuations explaining reality and causing each other in a cycle.
repeating the argument , expl : there is a domino falling game , and we have three stones , if we push the stone number 3 it well hit the stone 2 , and the stone 2 will hit stone 1 , and we see that one stone to fall and hit the other it takes 5 sec , how long it takes for the stone number one to fall ,
answer : it takes 15 sec
2 . if there 500 stone
. it takes 1500 sec to the stone #1 to fall
3. if there unlimited stones
. it takes forever to the stone #1 to fall , that's mean it will never fall , and it takes forever for the stone #200 to fall , and for the stone #687 and #819372937 ,
. the whole thing is wrong , there will be no stone moved
. but we see the stone #1 moved , therefore it must be a beginning , and a cause without cause , a stone that don't need a stone to be moved
you seem doesn't understand any of my arguments , one big bang or millions of big bangs , Mathematically there must be a beginning ,
"2 . Quantum fluctuations are a point change in the energy of a volume in space. But if there was once nothing, Than where is the energy to make quantum fluctuations possible? Quantum fluctuations can't come from nothing. They need energy to occur."
that's the thing, quantum fluctuations are a "change in the energy of a volume in *space*".... but since when do we think about space? isnt space nothing? the background stage in which actual events unfold, not an event in itself?
it appears as if an empty void is unstable, perhaps the existence of something is the natural state. and these fluctuations are observed within on universe. therefore it isnt even a real vacuum yet, there are still sparse gases. once dark energy thoroughly rips out universe apart and a true void remains, the quantum particles that come from that space may not dissapear right away but may he stable, and even expand into a new big bang. a new time, a new space, automatically generated from the void not randomly but by known phenomena.
of course, you can always add God to the beginning of that, but it seems like a semi satisfying answer even without him. especially since I'm not so satisfied with "God needs no cause" or anything happening without time.
what's interesting about your #1 is that it is the exact same argument used by Stephen hawking to prove that the universe DOESNT need a God. same point, opposite conclusion.
I'm not saying hes right and your wrong, I think your both wrong because outside of time, it isnt just an absence of before, but also an absence of now. without time, nothing will change, nothing will happen, nothing will move. there will never be a when for them to move. it will be perpetual stasis. nothing will ever happen.
I acknowledge the finding that our fabric of time is tied to our fabric of space, formed at the big bang. but that doesnt mean there isnt space (and time) outside of our universe in which the big bang did happen. because without time, the big bang would be forever potential, but never realized.
quantum fluctuations seem to solve all the problems, in my next post
1 . therefore this uncaused cause outside the space and time , cause the cause by itself it means it doesn't need a cause ?
2 . this cause is self-existed , it mean it doesn't need anything for its existence
1 . everything ( inside ) time and space need a cause , if god inside time and space he maybe need a cause , but god is not
. why outside the space and time doesn't need a cause because there is no before , a cause or the cause of the cause , or ( the cause of the cause of ..... 60000 times ) happen in the same moment so its one uncaused cause ,
2 . Quantum fluctuations are a point change in the energy of a volume in space. But if there was once nothing, Than where is the energy to make quantum fluctuations possible? Quantum fluctuations can't come from nothing. They need energy to occur. Thus, The creation of this entire universe and everything in it from quantum fluctuations is impossible.
2. I believe you said everything needs a cause.
3. the whole universe was caused, therefore everything inside of it obviously has a cause, which was ultimately the big bang. it is obvious the default existence would be outside the universe.
I dont know If you are up to date on recent physics findings (specifically dark energy and quantum fluctuations) but they do hint at an answer to the puzzle.
in essence, quantum fluctuations are the uncaused cause.
we are just in the beginning so take out all the questions to move on , we can't stay explaining axioms
1 . I am not guessing I didn't prove if it God yet
2 . God don't need a cause , why am still repeating , read the arguments down there
3 . the same the arguments down there , from ( the chain blocking argument ) we have fund that there is must be a first unaffected cause , and inside the space and time we can't find a unaffected cause , and if the cause outside the space and it must be always existed , there is no ( before ) and if the is no ( before ) those cause doesn't need another ceuse
. and if we apply the same ( always existed ) inside the space and time it will be ( never existed ) >> the chain blocking argument
I absolutely agree with cause and effect. although:
1. you are just assuming what the initial cause is purely on guessing.
2. if everything has a cause, then so does God. the same problem remains.
3. if God does not need a cause and simply always was, why cant I use the same excuse for existence in general.
I dont like the "always existed" or "came from nothing" answer in either version, but I do feel if something did pop in randomly or always existed, it would make sense for it to be a simple rock or gas then a perfect sentient being from nothing.
why i feel so rational ?
just prove me how you have know that the cause and effect don't apply billions of years ago , the certain thing is these law applies in any times we see , if you have a new theory just prove it
the most obvious thing am certain about is the cause and effect , I don't know if am talking to another dimension being , but here you must follow the rule
to explain the logic am talking about , is how you compare the certain things and experiment , with the clue , and back to my exmpl , the certain thing is the light must have a source , and the clue is a light come out from a room , it's very simple
the movement of the earth , theory had made before they pass the earth orbit ,
i don't know what logic you talking about but logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity , i agree with you in that point I didn't tell you that logic make you see the unseen without clue , but with the clue you can see it with your mind eye , as I said , if you see a light come out from a room it most be a source , that's the logic am talking about , but if you lock the room door you can't judge anything , because there is no clue , yes you can say that there is no light in the room , but if a light come out you can't say the logic deceive us
it's simple but no evidence
I agree with Nem. That was the point I'm trying to make. Logic doesn't always guide us towards the correct answer. And yes I'm agnostic. I'm and agnostic atheist.
the history of science is loaded with logical failures. for example the presumption of the aether, or spontaneous generation (meat left overnight would spontaneously make life, maggots, out of thin air)!
many things we have concluded from logic has been proven false with science, but not a single experimentally proven theory has ever been proven wrong, perhaps incomplete, but never wrong.
the problem with logic is that many answers are logical. but only 1 is true. thus logic is a hindrance.
the point of science is to root out all variables to find that 1 truth. logic is an important tool, but if not properly controlled, leads us to assumptions, bias, and hinders the path to truth.
according to logic, the earth is still for I do not feel it move.
just read about the history of science
i don't get your point , are you saying that we don't need logic for science development
science is Mathematical logic and mind experimenting memories
if science comes from just five senses , animals well be scientist
are you agnostic ??
actually if we don't use logic we well be still believing what we see with our eyes ,
Logic is not science. Science is not logic. Logically it appears that the sun moves around the Earth. And even if everything has a cause that does not mean that cause is god.
the sun raises because had a cause , and it is the earth who is moving
and no that's not logic , that's call five senses , logic is Mathematical thinking , without logic there is no science , if they don't even believe that everything has a cause they don't search for it cause , Isaac Newton see that things pull to the earth that's mean there are a cause , and the gravity is a pillar in physics
and I don't need to prove that nothing happens without cause , that's mindless , how you can prove that I am who talking to you is real , you can't know maybe I am AI bots , maybe those word yo see is natural selection from a bunch of monkeys typing randomly in keyboards , you can't prove it , but you can't say it is nothing , nothing don't do anything
There's always a grain of uncertainty in every scientific truth.
Steven Hawking himself say that the space and time began with the big bang
so you are saying than we don't know if cause and effect work in times or places we don't see , that's make the whole science in problem , how you accept evolution then , we don't know if the laws we see today there are on earth millions of years ago , the big bang well be uncertain too ,
I'll explain it step by step
1, you telling me to prove the law of cause and effect , now you are uncertain about logic itself
Let me try and explain it another way. Logically yes everything appears to have a beginning a cause. Yet what logically makes sense isn't always correct. Logically Earth isn't moving because I don't feel that movement. Logically the sun goes around the Earth because what I see is that the Sun is moving not me. See the point in trying to make? Logical doesn't always line up with scientific truths/ideas/concepts.
Right all the examples you're using we have knowledge of the objects being used. We know how they interact with other materials and things. We do not know how the universe interacts with other things so we cannot know how it began if it even did begin. So I said even if we found out that it had a beginning we still can't say what started that. Also I'm making the claim: I do not know. Therefore I have to prove nothing because I'm not claiming anything. You're making the claim that everything has to have a cause. If you make a claim it is you who has to back it up with proof.
OK I well repeat the argument , expl : there is a domino falling game , and we have three stones , if we push the stone number 3 it well hit the stone 2 , and the stone 2 will hit stone 1 , and we see that one stone to fall and hit the other it takes 5 sec , how long it takes for the stone number one to fall
you are going in circles , just tell me :
. how something can be existed without a cause
, and I have prove you that the universe must had a beginning you can't just ignoring it , if not prove me
. if we see a light come out from a room , there must be a source of light we don't need to see it , why you complicate the simplest things
. I had use a logical argument , and logic needed in any science to predict thing in any theory
First that analogy doesn't work because we know that windows if they are broken had to be hit by something. We as in humans scientists what have you don't know what "creates" universes if they do need to be "created". So the answer is... We Don't Know and that's okay! It's okay to say we don't know. Even if we discovered that the universe had to had started you still can't assume what started it. I put created in quotations because that implies that there has to be a creator when the answer is: We don't know...
we can't say it happened by chance because chance is a description of an action not a cause , expl : if you come home and you find your window broken , if you ask who broke it , they can't tell you , the chance broken the window its wrong answer , the right answer is , your brother broke it by chance , and the more irrational if you come again and you find it repaired , if they say the both previous answer they were wrong , your brother can't repair it by Chance , iam so logical please be so
OK atheism is fine , just explain how something exist without a cause
Atheism is ONLY the lack of belief in a deity or deities. I really need you to understand this before we can continue communicating because you're misrepresenting the "position" and using it to make assumptions.
give me one thing with no cause
and that's the irrationality of atheism , how can be something without cause
whaaat , that's horrible read the argument again down there , it's stated clearly we can't be existed if there is no beginning , and the entropy theory prove that everything is going for the destruction and dying of energy , if it so , that's must be a long time ago , actually i prove you that we can't sequence in the cause for no beginning
1) We don't know that the universe started as nothing
2) We don't know that the universe had a beginning
3) There's no way to prove that everything 100% needs a cause to have an effect that's just an opinion.
4) You still didn't provide evidence that something can exist outside of space and time.
. nothing create the universe , is like 0 + 0 = 1 and is the most irrational thinking
. universe create itself it is the same because before universe create itself it was nothing
. the most logical choice is a cause outside the time and space , we don't know is it God yet but it's the only choice
do you agree with that , if you don't tell why
OK I'll simplify it , the evidence is the law of cause and effect , every effect has a cause , and with the chain blocking argument , we know there must be a beginning ,and everything was nothing so if it like that we have three choices ,
. nothing create the universe
. the universe create itself
. something outside the time and space cause it
make your rational choice
What evidence do you have that shows something can exist outside of space and time?
and who created God it's old irrational question :
#1 if we talk about creation , God can't be created , if I cook the dinner you can't say who cook me
#2 the right question is about time , where God was , and where he come from , and no God didn't come , God create time , therefore before he create it there in no ( before ) and ( after ) , God is eternal outside the limits of time and space
you didn't understand it , these argument prove that it most be a Creator not created , because we can't go forever with no beginning
This argument doesn't work because then who/what created god?
. Application: If we say (1) is created by (2) , and (2) created by (3) and so on to no end, the result is that (1) will not be created and will not exist, but (1) exists , if it exist there must be a beginning and must be The presence of a Creator not created
# 1 the chain blocking argument
. If you understand this argument you will find answers to many of the questions that are in your mind, and to understand this argument i will give examples
. Example 1: If I told you I will give you a sum of money if john agrees and we know that john will agree, what will you do to get the money, you will go to Zaid and get me approval from him and take the money. That john approval is the cause for taking you money
. Example 2: If I told you I would give you a sum of money if john agrees and before john agrees, david must agree and before david agrees jacob must agree. Here we have more than one cause . They are John , David and jacob. What will you do to get Money, will go to the first jacob and and then david and then john
. Note that jacob is a first cause and is also an unaffected influence in the sense that he does not need anyone's approval. He is an unaffected influence and his presence is what made you get the money.
. The third example is if I told you that I will give you a sum of money if john agrees and before john agrees, david must agree and before david agrees, jacob has to agree and before Jacob agrees, Daniel has to agree and so to no end. to get the money, you will go to the first cause , but where is the first cause, the first cause does not exist because we have unlimited chain in the cause to infinity, and therefore will not get effect and will not get the money
This is chain blocking argument and summarize it in the following points:
1. Sequencing in the cause is impossible, because it results in no effect
2. The presence of the effect is evidence of the discontinuity of the sequence in the cause
3. The existence of the effect is evidence of a first unaffected cause
. test :
. If we gave a soldier a gun and asked him to fire the bullet provided that the bullet is not fired until the soldier who before him give a permission , and we told the soldier behind him does not give permission to the soldier unless the soldier who behind you give you permission and continue like that endlessly
. Question 1: When will the bullet be fired?
. Answer: The bullet will not be fired
. Question 2: If the bullet is fired, what shall we judge?
. The answer is that the chain is blocked and that there is a soldier is the first influential unaffected, in the sense that it gives permission and does not need permission
. Application: If we say (1) is created by (2) , and (2) created by (3) and so on to no end, the result is
No I'm not sure. Science hasn't figured it out yet but I'm not filling in this gap of knowledge with something unproven.
do you believe that existence has a beginning , in another way , that everything was nothing
The burden of proof lies on you my dude.