The debate "God hates us all" was started by
June 30, 2015, 8:45 am.
62 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 197 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
I_Voyager posted 9 arguments, ari_pooya posted 1 argument, sloanstar1000 posted 1 argument, WaspToxin posted 1 argument, zoeclare7 posted 1 argument, Sosocratese posted 6 arguments, historybuff posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
PsychDave posted 12 arguments, mace89 posted 1 argument, toughgamerjerry posted 2 arguments, toughgamer posted 1 argument, hiug posted 1 argument, blackbattiger posted 1 argument, Alex posted 13 arguments, Apollo8 posted 1 argument, mace10514 posted 1 argument, historybuff posted 2 arguments, pajrc1234 posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
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The argument could be reversed as well. We are born and die weak because God hates us but by struggling we can improve ourselves in between.
farishadar. none of that had anything close to a real argument.
you born weak and die weak,what you are in between those time periods,god make us stronger,so god not hate us
*supposedly told us so
That's just it though Alex, how do we know God is good? The only way is because he told us so.
That's the point. It's supposed to be interesting. You can "know" what you like, but if you just entertain the possibility of God being evil and genuinely try to play with that position, you'll be extremely surprised at what you find.
I guess he could.
an evil God could be possible. but we know God to be good. so he is good. this debate was interesting. the idea God made up jesus and implanted visions to people is funny and interesting, but not logical, and did not happen.
who are you to judge the ways of the evil God? if that's what he wants to do there is no reason he couldn't.
an evil God would have, yes. seems like a lot to go though that trouble when simply torturing us would be evil enough.
You mean he would have created rival religions and made them antagonistic? He would have made people delusional and see visions like schizophrenia? He would cause natural disasters to spread strife, conflict and suffering? Are you noticing a pattern here?
we know the nature of God. it is a good nature.
for a evil God to be true God would have made up tons of things, created thousands of false visions, made a good jesus, or imprint delusions into all people. and many other things. not logical at all.
Then this conversation is pointless...you're asserting that you know the nature of God. And aren't willing to accept the possibility of an evil God.
Why wouldn't an evil God create us? If he was bored and wanted to watch something suffer he could create a world, visit various peoples and teach conflicting messages, then watch then fight over whose message is true. Give several groups the message that if they ask for help they will receive it, and then never actually help them.
I don't honestly know if God exists or not, but an evil God is just as defensible a position as a good one and actually explains more of the current global conditions than an omnipotent being who is benevolent.
we know why a good God created us.
we don't know why a evil God would create us.
we know much more about the good God because the good God actually exists
I don't assume things
Who is to say he did? It may be another lie.... Perhaps the good God still has yet to reveal himself.
As I said it's a thought experiment. You're supposed to assume it as true and see if you can disprove the notion independently of the texts since you can't trust them. It's supposed to show you how little we can actually know about the nature of God rather that what we can believe.
if God is evil why did he create us?
God's plan is not what is being followed. How many times have you had a plan and it has not been followed? God's plan involves no evil or suffereing. if people actually followed gods plan the world would be perfect.
God sees us doing sin, but does not cause us to stop because we have free will.
Jesus is not proof that God isn't evil. You don't know that Jesus existed. There are no independent records of his life. An evil God could plant a false messiah into his book in order to keep you from knowing the true nature of God.
If you can't be certain of the nature of God independently from his texts, then you can't accept the Bible as truth since you can't verify that it wasn't written with the intent to deceive.
Does God know everything? In your belief system, yes.
I'd Jesus God? Again in your belief system, yes.
Therefore he knew everything his followers would ever do. He set the ground work for them to kill and torture thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands throughout history.
If you need examples more specific, he cursed a fig tree forever because it didn't have any fruit when he was hungry. Even though it was not in season, in a fit of pique he curses the tree to never bear fruit again. What did the tree so to deserve that?
Jesus also repeatedly says that anyone with faith who asks for something in his name will have it, but I have yet to see the sick healed, the dying saved or the missing found miraculously when those with faith pray. Either he was lying or there is no one left on earth who actually has faith.
Well, since Jesus is God, then he (in the Bible) killed millions in a flood. Because of "God's plan," it's obvious that he was said to plan the Paris attacks, ISIS, and all of the starving in the world. Every bad thing someone had ever done is just God (Jesus) giving out orders. He planned everything.
tell me a evil thing JESUS did, not what christians did.
the last part I agree with. why have a religion if you don't think it's true? they can't all be right. so if you have a religion the others have to be false according to you.
Basically your justification is "because I said so" with no proof or evidence.
"That would make Jesus evil. He was not." Why not? His worship resulted in burning people at the stake, the inquisition, witch hunts, the crusades, and more religious wars and conflict than any other in history. His followers have killed the followers of every other religion they encountered, as well as other Christians from different sects.
"I say other religions are wrong because mine is right."
They say the same of you. You haven't done anything to prove that you are right. You stated your belief as a fact and moved on. If they are right, you are wrong and they have just as much proof of their beliefs as you have of yours.
If God is bad and jesus is God. that would make jesus evil. he was not.
so you are saying the evil God made it so we would think he is good. This evil God has certainly failed at that. many people think God is bad.
I say other religions are wrong because my religion is right, only one can be right and so therefore they are wrong.
Drone since the dawn of time
Compelled to live your tortured life
Not once has anyone ever seen
Such a rise of pure hypocrisy
I'll instigate I'll free your mind
I'll show you what I've known all this time
God hates us all!
Alex, why could Jesus not have been God if God was evil? You're making claims without providing evidence or reasoning.
Secondly, how can you dismiss the other religions of the world as being wrong. The claim could be made that an evil God would write the Christian Bible in order to mislead....to embed and disguise the evil of his ways behind a nice story.
no. a man named Jesus did some magic tricks. people said he was God. that's all you can say for certain.
ok, never herd that before.
does that mean hell is the place where God wants us, and is the devil good then?
Jesus could not have been God if God is evil, yet jesus proved he was God.
This is simply a special case of the Evil God Challenge. It stems from a thought experiment which challenges the proponent of an all good God to explain why an all good God is more likely than an evil God.
Stephen Law, the philosopher who developed a lot of the argument states that "they[fundamentalists] must explain to someone who is neutral in the matter why their God is better than the anti-God without locating good in some Godly concept, such as love, that could be followed in its own right."
The main problem people run into when arguing this is even though the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient God who is all evil may be ridiculous, all of the arguments to dismiss this Evil God apply equally well to the idea of an all-good God.
William Craig has tried to answer this challenge by stating that the presence of good is proof that an all evil God cannot exist. However, by extension, evil would be proof that an all good God does not exist. The evil God challenge basically turns the tables and asserts that good may simply be a product of humanity, not God. As opposed to the traditional thinking that evil is the product of man not God.
and I've explained how those evils are possible under a all good God.
we've been through this. your Christian God is a lie. if there is a god he must hate his creations subjecting them to famine, disease and war.
because a God who hates us, let's us, sinners go to heaven, a place for only the the perfect.
there is no God, but if there is, he most definitely does hate us
Read on St. Aquinas' and St. Augustine's theory on the heavenly city and earthly city and more, and you will see how all their theories eventually reach the theory on what the better human act or decision is.
Additionally, remember that being given all that you want spoils you to the point that you become inconsiderate of others. Being given everything, makes you end up thinking you're always right. It's more than just having what you think is right, it's the experiences that shapes you. Commonly, the happiness you recieve may be a harm to others. The opposite is also true.
Also, death is not something you can escape, we eventually have to accept it. Imagine your loved one dies before you. If you are given what you wanted, then they dont die before you. Chances are, you die before them. You shift the burden of losing someone from yourself to them. Unconsciously, your desire causes unintended effects and burdens your loved one.
If you say God hates us all, then that would mean we would've been miserable all our life, suffering to the point of breakage. I don't think that that's always happening to us, right?
1. he did not create people to follow false religions, the people, out if their own free will chose to do so.
2. free will, God does not make us do anything.
3-4. God rewards the good in heaven eternally. there are many scripture versus on this. the passage about lazerous and the rich man is a good one. the rich man got good on earth for about 50 years and lazerous got bad. after death the rich man, whom was evil on earth got ETERNAL hell, as lazerous got ETERNAL heaven.
which God should you worship?
1. the God who rewards you on earth, bit gives you eternal hell
2. the God who permits evil to happen to you, and gives you eternal heaven.
assuming that good created us .. why did he create people following other religions?
why didn't he make all people following one religion?
passing the first question. why doesn't god help people who are following him?
why doesn't he help good people around the world? is he weak?
so he doesn't deserve to be worshipped
does he know what happened in the world and he stays not moving a finger
then he is evil and doesn't deserve to be worshipped
We cannot vote yes or no for we don't know if God exists. By the way, I love the song ;)
Someone heard it in a song maybe?
How did this get in the music topic?
Lord Sauron also hates us I'm told.
everyone says god loves us! well the love comes from our loved ones, and the pain and death had to be gods fault. I mean if he loved us why would he let us get hurt?
why would god create us if he wanted to hate everyone?
The leaf is influenced by many factors, this is true. Currents and tides are affected by the moon and gravity. The wind influences the leaf as it falls into the water. Imagine that all these physical forces in motion could be expressed as a mathematical algorithm accounting for the shifts and changes in each moment of space and time. Omniscient god would know not only the any part of the equation at any given time, but the whole equation prior to the event. When he created the earth, he could have predicted with ease, "The leaf traveling down the river and approach the bend will go left."
Let's come up with a less abstract metaphor which deals directly with what we're talking about. Adultery is a sin. Bill Clinton committed Adultery. Bill Clinton is a sinner. Bil Clinton has an impulse towards sin because he inherited Adam and Eve's original sin.
It is impossible that Bill Clinton could choose to have an affair if god is omniscient. Just as the physical forces of leaves falling are knowable quantities to an eternal and omniscient creator, so to are human forces.
Step 1 - If earth doesn't exist god still knows what choices Adam and Eve will make on any given earth.
Step 2- If earth doesn't exist god still knows what sins will follow Adam and Eve's children.
Step 3 - If earth doesn't exist god still knows Bill Clinton will have an affair.
Step 4 - Free will is predicated on no external constrain causing the "choice" to be determined for the chooser.
Step 5 - Predetermined events are established or decided in advance.
Step 6 - God must create a reality predetermined by his knowledge.
Step 7 - Predetermination is an external constrain which comes from the past to determine the future.
Step 8 - Bill Clinton's affair is predetermined by god.
Step 9 - Bill Clinton doesn't have free will.
Step 10 - The religion claims people have free will and god is omniscient.
Conclusion - The religion is illogical.
Since the religion is illogical one of the three must be true: god is a sinner, god is a liar or god doesn't exist.
I do understand your analogy, but you are likening thinking beings to inanimate objects, which is a very limited comparison. An automated turned doesn't choose whether it should fire or not because the one setting it up has already told it to fire. It merely follows a simple instruction. That is why I compared free will to a leaf on a river. There an countless eddies and currents that could redirect it, a fish swimming by might bump it, but if you know where the rivers go, you still know the destination. You are not removing the possibility of either course when you set it in the water, because numerous minute factors weight into its course, but regardless you know all possible destinations.
In your analogy with the turret, you are right that the one who set it is responsible, but does he still bear all of the guilt if he warns everyone that there is a turret? The Bible lays out what is right and wrong in God's eyes. We know which hallways are dangerous. If we still choose to walk down them with that knowledge, we are somewhat responsible. I don't walk into traffic because I know it is dangerous. If I did, I would be at least partially responsible for the broken bones that result from being hit.
In the case of the turret I'm not really considering the person who is going down the hallway. I choose to assume that person doesn't know the turret is there. The problem I'm presenting is about how the subjects presented relate to the event of the gun. Who is blamed when the gun kills a person? The gun or the creator? And why? Is it because the person who knows what the gun will do determines what the gun will do? No, because a passive observer who can infer from the situation what will happen doesn't effect what will happen. But if the subject has knowledge of what will happen because he designed the turret, he is determining the future. Of course, someone might never walk down the hallway. But that's not relevant. So long as the creator sets the gun to shoot, any time the gun would shoot the fault is on the maker and not the gun nor the person traveling down the corridor.
I basically agree that an argument from the multiverse is vain. Just to re-enforce your argument, the bible says nothing about a multiverse. Science has theories which speculate at a multiverse, but there is no evidence of a multiverse so at best it's an indefensible theory or, as you said, at least for the moment.
But it's a fun thing to talk about ;)
I'm hope you understand that what I'm trying to dissect here is the problem of god's knowledge of the universe and free will. I'm ok with god creating a universe, but he can't create a universe with people with free will if he is omniscient of his creation. And those arguments I've made in the previous posts are just explaining why in a number of situations and context, multiverse or one universe regardless. And our analogies just explore the idea of "creator's knowledge VS free will or determinism."
I like the argument that PsycheDave brought up. But to your argument about the automatic turret, you cannot choose who walks in front of it. It is up to the person to walk in front of it.
We cannot really prove anything with the multiverse argument. We can make theories, but the true religion (or "science" for some people) will stay the same. So the only way to prove anything through this is by traveling through multiple universes and seeing what stays the same throughout them all. But at this moment we are not able to do that.
God does not have every value. Just like we have the choice to do the right thing, God also has the choice to do the right thing. God always chooses to do the right thing. We may also have the same decision, but we don't always choose to so the right thing.
God is outside all of the multiverses because he is the one that creates the world that are in the universe so without Him there would be no universe.
I'm not sure what the difference is between the two analogies. In each case, we have an object with a condition involving direction and possibility. Either the possibility is determined by something outside the observer or by the observer. In my case, there are two subjects in relation to the turret. The first is the creator. The second is the passive observer in a control room. In the latter case, the person didn't make the gun, but sees people running down toward the gun. He cannot alter the outcome, but he knows for certain that the gun is going to kill those people. He is not responsible for the event and cannot alter it, but has foreknowledge and is therefore not influencing the destiny of the gun. Only the creator determines the course. So too for the leaf, for the passive observer's foreknowledge does not move the leaf, but the leaf's creator determines whether it goes left, right, or both directions in two different universes.
There are multiple interpretations of Christianity. Some claim that the bible's message is more important than the content. Numerous others argue that the bible is a perfect text. So my "the bible's perfection denies a multiverse" only applies to the second, not the first. The first interpreting group may make your argument.
In this case I defer to my first argument against the finite nature of a multiverse vs the infinite nature of god. An infinite god wouldn't create an infinite multiverse and also be omniscience of it, for omniscience is as good as "all", and infinite cannot be an "all" since "all" is a sum. The infinite god could always make more universes, so if the number of universes is finite he chose to make all those ones specifically and has all knowledge about all of them. He could have made one additional universe, or one less universe. But we within the universes could only complete our destiny in that universe. Or otherwise we would be ourselves from another universe fulfilling other conditions.
In my analogy, an automatic turret is not a fair comparison because you have already determined it's course. It will shoot at anything it sees. Creation could be looked at as God dropping the leaf in the water and knowing the outcome whether it goes left or right.
I don't think the Bible would of necessity be changed in different universes. If the information it contains is truly perfect and divinely inspired, it could be a multiverse constant. Who wrote it might change, when it was written might change, but the message would remain perfect because it was created by something independent of the universe.
Another possibility is that we are an imperfect mirror of the universe that was originally created. If God gave us free will and each decision spun off another parallel world, we might be the spin-off Adam and Eve choosing to give in to temptation. In the primary universe, they chose to remain true to God's will and stayed in the Garden of Eden, meaning that the Bible is unnecessary in their world. The Bible, prophets and all could be God coaching us back from that original decision, but we are one of the "bad" dimensions so we keep going down the wrong fork.
As to the revelations of future events, if they changed between universes that would not invalidate the rest of God's message. If I tell you that you should turn left to get to your destination, and tell someone else that they should turn right to get to theirs, both of these could be true based on different starting points and different routes.
It's different if you create the leaf. If I make an automatic gun turret staring down a hallway and someone walks down the hallway I am responsible for the event of death unleashed by the gun. Same if I made the leaf go left.
This doesn't do really well to justify the Christian god. But it excellently describes an interpretation of the pandeist image of god, where god is manifesting himself as god through the universe/multiverse.
In the case of the Christian god he is: outside/independent of the universe, eternal, and perfect. He is an infinite triangle not compose of universal qualities.So he still knows the whole multiverse.
If a multiverse has finite parts, then none the less we can conclude "X is the total quantity of choices all humans could make in every universe." In which case we're just increasing the choice-to-knowledge ratio of god. Since the quantity of choices in X are finite, and god is infinite, then there is at least still additional possibilities which don't exist in a finite realm of choices. God chose to make the imperfect mirror knowing every possible imperfection and every choice. There is still no free will. Besides that the bible is describing the religion of god. It can't be the true religion if there are an infinite number of bibles describing the different Christianity of those universes. If they were all the same, they would defeat the purpose of a multiverse. God couldn't make a universe which wasn't Christian. He couldn't make a good secular universe if Christianity is universal.
Also, the bible describes what will happen in the future, supposedly, so the same bible couldn't exist in two universes... They'd contradict themselves, but the truth is eternal and consistent. I imagine that even a secular multiverse would have a single repeating truth of physics. But the Christian multiverse is always self-contradicting. And since the bible has no mention of a multiverse anyways we can say it's not a Christian dogma.
But if god is the Pandeist god, this works really well. It could be argued that every possible choice would be made throughout all the infinite multiverse. If god is eternal and omniscient, then this infinite universe describes itself with self-knowledge. But this god couldn't be, let's say, eternal good, because he contains all values including evil values. He would be, like, the god of pragmatism or the god of physics or something.
Another mirror, but on the religious side, is Jerry. I'm pretty sure he doesn't like me very much because he views many of my methods as unethical. But he only makes defensible arguments and seems to avoids attacks as best he can. He uses tiny attacks here or there, but hey, he's also human.
I can claim anything is true. Even in this case I can claim god hates us all. But no one has a reason to believe me if I don't ll justify it...
Making indefensible arguments is dishonorable. Look at it in military terms... An army might use guerrilla or terrorist tactics to attack the enemy, whilst always retreating, never putting up a front. Or an army can line up and engage their enemy in a battle which risks defeat. The former is an indefensible strategy, the latter is a defensible strategy. War may be unethical because of the fact of death, but as an author I like wrote, "though a fight in the street is to be detested, the energies displayed in it are fine."
Can you display the honorable energies of a warrior of god by engaging in a defensible argument? Or will you be just another coward and strike before fleeing?
I_voyager is explaining his position without resorting to personal attacks. Is your reason for your belief so weak that you cannot defend it without attacking someone else?
Because you're the only one who is giving up in The Thousands of Trials given by God so you need a little more patience in terms of particular aspects and you will know what I mean.....
Good Luck Mr Pathetic..
I have an alternative view that occurred to me since we last debated this in the free will debate.
What if God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions?
Think of a leaf floating down a stream toward a fork. You know the course of both left and right path, so no matter which way the leaf goes, you know the outcome. You are not influencing the leaf, but no matter which way it goes you know where it will end up.
Furthermore, the multiverse theory would mean that in other parallel world's we decided differently, so while we can and do decide our course ourselves, we decide differently in different parallels, but as God knows every possible outcome He is still omniscient. Since we are simultaneously making every possible decision, it is is not predetermined.
It seems to me very plain that god was made by people to fill a void in philosophy which we couldn't before a strongly empirical method was determined.
It seems unlikely to me that god made humanity with free will. If god is truly omniscient then he truly has all knowledge. If he is transcendent of time and eternal then all his qualities are constantly true. Which is true of his complete knowledge. Which must contain a complete knowledge of all possible human decisions in all possible worlds, and especially so of every human decision to be made on this earth. He must have necessarily had this knowledge prior to creation, throughout all the history of earth and beyond. Yet he made exactly this world with its material qualities and not certainly any of the other possible worlds he could make. By this logic he couldn't have made humans with free will. He made humans whose choices were predetermined by his foreknowledge.
In this case, all sinners were made to be sinners. Right up to and including satan, Pontius Pilate, Judas. Sin was necessarily part of gods plan. Yet he hates sin. He made all people who would go to hell, to go to hell. And he tormented everyone he ever loved or forgave for those errors he programmed into them.
Actually that is wrong Voyager. If you read Genesis you see that it was the serpent that tempted Eve and Adam went along with Eve and so they made their own decision to sin. He made us with free will and we chose to sin and because of that we are punished. But God loves us so much that He sent His only son to be tortured and die on a cross so that we are able to get to heaven if we believe that He is our Lord and Savior. You are right that He hates sin, but He hates the sin, not the sinner. Just like the saying hate the game but not the player. I can see the merit in your argument that gandalf loves his Hobbits even though he is fictional. But the difference is that gandalf and the Hobbits were made by humans, God was not created by human, He has always existed and always will exist.
Like I said, I can accept that Gandalf loves Hobbits. But neither Gandalf nor Hobbits are real. I can accept that Gandalf says he loves all living things, but he clearly hates Sauron, so I can accept that not everything Gandalf thinks about himself is right. Similarly, I can accept that god doesn't exist. I can then treat him as a character in a narrative.
God is transcendent so he need not be restricted to one quality. He can love and hate. He hates sin, for it is always punished or forgiven, but never tolerated or accepted. He made everyone sinners. So he has an equally true love-hate relationship with everyone.
I'm going to reply to this kind of like in the movie God's not dead. Most likely you do not believe in God. But like Psychdave said, how can something that does not exist hate? Voyager, give the reason why you say God hates us all. If you don't believe in Him then how can you hate something that doesn't exist? You have to say that He does exist to say that He hates us all.
well it all depends on what you think god is,most to all ppl think god is a human with super powers so thay give him human traits,but me personally know god is sorce and sorce is energy and energy is spirit therefore im god
I don't believe in god. I don't believe in Gandalf. But Gandalf still loved his hobbits and hated Sauron.
If you don't believe in God, a nonexistent entity cannot feel hate, therefore God cannot hate us.
If you do believe in God, almost all of them are father figures (or mother figures in some cases). In this case God does not hate us, but sometimes punishes us to teach us a lesson.
In the Christian faith, God loves us enough to send his son to be tortured and killed to pay for our sins, allowing is to be forgiven for them.
In the Muslim faith, even those who are condemned to Hell are not there for eternity, but only u til they have paid for their sins from life (obviously this depends on which branch of Islam).
Mankind, in his insatiable search for the divine knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings. Realizing that the strength of religion is the repression of knowledge all structures of religion have collapsed. Life prays for death in the wake of the horror of these revelations. It was never imagined how graphic the reality that would be known as the end of creation would manifest itself. We believe all this chaos and atrocity can be traced back to one single event.
We hold these truths to be painfully self-evident: all men are not created equal, only the strong will prosper, only the strong will conquer. Only in the darkness of Christ have I realized god hates us all.