The debate "God not all powerfull if he made the universe instantly but took six days for one planet." was started by
December 27, 2017, 3:10 pm.
13 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 26 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
Nemiroff posted 7 arguments, Masonearl posted 1 argument, BrynnY posted 6 arguments to the agreers part.
Brynn posted 1 argument, Nemiroff posted 6 arguments to the disagreers part.
Masonearl, Against_eu, Mark01, bernie2020, RavenclawOwl, nivasprashanth and 7 visitors agree.
Brynn, ttsacin2, Nemiroff, Niel, Seanwb21, trump, kidkck, Thaoss, Post_it_note and 17 visitors disagree.
An all powerful being should be capable of creating/doing anything they want. Having limits means they aren't all powerful.
one last attempt to explain
the set of numbers is infinite, but any specific number in that set is finite.
any action an infinite being takes is of a certain finite strength, even if he could always go infinitely stronger.
all powerful means there is no limit, but any action he does must be of a certain measurement. limitless is not a number or a measurement. past this, I give up.
it's not a "disproving" if you didn't understand. do you knie what weight and size are? a measurement. and a measurement is a quantifiable number.
any stone he creates will have a set, finite weight, no matter how ridiculously large, but he will ALWAYS be able to create a heavier one because of his limitless power.
I hope this distinction will be clear but I'm not getting my hopes up. I'll leave it here.
Also you've already disproven your own belief saying nothing infinite can exist. Correct me if you don't believe that but if you do then you already think an all powerful being can't exist. All powerful=infinite power. Different wording same meaning.
An all powerful being should be all powerful and therefore do anything they want. Since the question I gave you shows that this is impossible than being all powerful is impossible.
it seems to me that you expect an all power being to be able to break the laws of logic and create blatant contradictions.
I agree he should have total control of the laws of physics, freezing time, moving galaxies or universes, creating and destroying with no effort. however the laws of logic are iron clad, perhaps infinitely so :) and have nothing to do with power. no amount of strength can create a rock that is rolling up and down the same hill at the same time, or mathematically make "1 not = 1". creating such contradictions is not power, it is absurdity.
Interesting analogy. I haven't heard that one before. is it an original? it's also deep and I think it gave me a revelation regarding the whole concept if self limiting ability.
for this current example I had to realize that a stone of infinite size could not exist without an infinite amount of space in which to exist in. and if the space is infinite, then the stone, no matter how big, including infinite, would always have an infinite amount of more room in which to be manipulated... and if so, can it even be considered infinite?
and there came the revelation, and my definitive answer is: no, god cannot create a stone so heavy he cannot lift or a rock so big he cannot interact with precisely because he is all powerful.
infinite power cannot create infinite objects because infinity is not a number. therefore when he makes that rock, he needs a number, and no matter how insanely massive of a number he comes up with, and then adds a gazillion more zeros to its end, not only will he be able to move, lift, or whatever it, he can create one that is even bigger and heavier, adding a gazillion more zeros an infinite amount of times and never reaching his limit.
this is what it means to be all powerful, and also why his creations can never be perfect. perfection is just a form of ideological infinity, and no matter what he tries to create, (which comes out perfectly as he envisions it), he can always do better with his infinite power.
Let me clarify it is impossible to creat a rock of infinite size and still be capable of interacting with it.
I do understand the concept of infinity... and it is impossible to creat a rock that is infinite in size and therefore impossible to be all powerful. Same conclusion.
so an all powerful being, who by definition can lift an infinitely heavy stone, by your "logic" you are expecting him to create a stone heavier than infinity....
all I can conclude is that you do not understand the concept of infinity.
can you answer a math question: what is infinity + 100 or infinity + infinity? here's a clue... its still infinity. there is nothing greater than infinity. the logic is nonsensical.
I never said its a sign of weakness. Its a sign that it is impossible to be all powerful. My point still stands and you refuted nothing that I could notice.
that sounds like a logical contradiction, just like the ontological arguments sound like logical proofs for God's existence. unfortunately I don't think they stand up to scrutiny.
suppose god creates the heaviest possible rock. it isn't just super insanely heavy, it is infinitely heavy. (I do hope you understand the mind boggling concept of infinity). and yet is still able to lift it... that is not a sign of weakness, that's the ultimate sign of power.
With this question: Can god create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? There are two possible outcomes. 1) He cannot lift the rock and then is obviously not all powerful. 2) He can lift the rock and is still not all powerful because he couldn't make a rock too heavy for himself.
why is it impossible?
It is impossible to be all powerful regardless
God bless you Earl. God didn't "need" to take six days to make Earth. He did that on purpose because there is a significance to each day and in taking that many days.
You won't know what, neighbor, until after you die?
lol, which one?
What an unusually blasphemous post, even if it's typical behaviour of the ungodly and ungrateful.
I hope it's a level 2 :D
personally I have come to the conclusion that I won't know until I die. I don't like it but it is forced on me. haha
I don't believe typical Christianity (or the other Abrahamic faiths) viewed god as a subjective, favorite flavor, type of perfection, but an objective, he can do anything with no limits and no flaws. if subjective perfection is your take then obviously all views are equally valid
perfection seems to have a diff. meaning to all of us.
for example. hypothetically I could like my coffee with a scoop of honey and milk. i believe it's perfect. while for you, you might think just drinking it black is perfect. I guess what I'm saying is perfection is relative to the person.
I don't disagree with your assessment but I also question perfection.
does a perfect being need enjoyment and accomplishment? wouldn't perfecting entail a permanent state of both those qualities or a lack of need for either? I think the whole idea of perfection is irrational.
which is why I'm arguing not that god should have done it differently, but that the bible is not a literal document.
Ahhhh. Well said.
sorry let me explain more. the hands on approach is usually more enjoyable. for example if you are an artist and you had God's powers would you make paintings instantly? I would think doing as such would be boring and make the task mundane. while doing it by hand can come with a real since of accomplishment.
things are better done when done slow and careful for limited beings doing complicated tasks. for a perfect, all powerful being, any task should be as easy as a functioning adult putting 1 foot in front of the other.
the Bible says one day to God Is A Thousand Years and a thousand years is one day so if a year is 365 days and each day was a thousand years what would be the math?
why rush things? sometimes things are better done slowly and with hard work than the easy way.
Where did you get the notion that the god of the Bible (which is the god I assume you're bringing up) created the universe instantaneously but not the Earth? Last I read he created these things on separate days. The duration of said creation was not mentioned.
he wouldn't be a powerful if he took more than an instant to create anything. unless he chose to take his time, for some reason.