The debate "Homosexuality is a SIN" was started by
July 2, 2015, 2:21 pm.
212 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 298 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
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That said. I support homosexuality and gay rights. I am an agnostic.
Isn't it according to most religons. . . the ones who care about sins? I know the bible says so.
Cause anyone with a clear brain can see that the man fits into the woman. People that don't believe there is a God are ridiculous. So there just so happens to be two genders in every species that have the same parts and there is oxygen and the earth is the perfect distance from the sun and we have oceans. wr have brains and spirits we are diverse and have variety in many species. we are creative and have emotions. We have beautiful creation all around us. Just open your eyes. Look in the mirror and look at your face. How can you tell yourself there wasn't a God that specifically molded you to make you unique and different from everyone else.There is no snowflake that is exactly the same only a god can make a universe so perfect. There is also obviously a devil or demonic being that brings the bad that you see. He decieves people to believe dumb things like the earth came out of nowhere and man should lay with men.
So.... why is homosexuality bad?
that's even worse Alex. you don't say its a sin because God says so. it's a sin because a bunch of old men say so.
Catholics should not use the bible for moral judgement, and we don't say being gay is a sin because if the bible. we sat so because the church says so.
"We should not hate either"
You do know that there are many protests, trying to deny gay rights, the Kim Davis case, and over 30 simple rights being denied?
The Bible got one of the easiest moral questions wrong (slavery, beating slaves), so why do you think it would get something like sexual equality correct?
Those with illness like that who worship God, God loves most. He loves those who inspired of hardships praise Him. illnesses also bring people closer to God, so a sick person may be closer to God then a well person, and have a greater chance of heaven.
God loves everyone? children with leukemia he created, what happened there?
Vadican II modernized the church a lot. to you I guess a big change would be changing a doctrine, but that's impossible.
God can't hate, he loves everyone. and we should not hate either
If God was so intent on hating gays, why didn't he put it in the ten commandments?
Vatican II was a slight modernization of the church. but it was just a face lift. all of the important things were reconfirmed as they always were. not least of which the idea that the Pope is infallible.
If I say you are Republican, then later change it to usted es Republicano, have I substantially changed something?
If I switch from facing left to right, have I altered anything substantial?
I am aware that these changes are not nothing, and they do show progress, but they are hardly momentous changes from what the church has done for hundreds of years.
Because they're not substantive changes only procedural ones....
yes, what freaking lauguage the priest speaks is no big change??? what the **** . they changed also the direction the priest faces, the whole way of doing communion, deacons came. bunch of other stuff.
how is going from Latin to English a baby step? How is abandoning years of tradition in the the priest facing the front of the church a baby step?
I did a little reading. I'm not an expert on the subject but those changes aren't all that big when compared to the amount of things they still need to modernize. in the grand scheme of church history that is a baby step. I'm sure more will come in time as they struggle to stay relevant.
Vadican II? no small Change made there.
except the church is trapped in its own traditions. it cant change. because it is so large and so diverse, any serious change woukd likely tear it apart(again). so they are stuck. they are trapped in antiquated thinking. the Pope couldn't change these rules if he wanted to. there are just too many people afraid of change.
the Pope today tells us. and the church today can make any change and tell us what is a sin or not.
so a group of old men, most of whom have been dead for centuries, tell you what is morally right today? on the face of it that is dumb. when you add to that the violent and abusive history of the church it is downright laughable. you're taking your moral guidance from people who thought burning people to death for disagreeing with them was right. despite the fact that that also conflicts with what Jesus, the founder of the church, said (assuming he even existed). so using tradition as a guide for morals is a terrible plan.
the Catholic church tells us what is a sin and what is not a sin.
Those 2 things are not sins according to jesus, the head of the church so....
but sins is s made up word with no real value does it matter. if I accept your opinion then sure you can decide what sins are. but since we know that planting two crops in the same field is a sin and that mixing fabrics in a shirt is sin, sins have absolutely no value to society or any single person since they are entirely made up.
I don't get that statement. I would not trust that person. this is religion telling us what a sin is. and telling us what is or isn't a sin. if your statement that religion made up sons is true, then shouldn't religion get to decide what is a sin.
Well, religion did make up the sins. Would you trust someone who stabbed you with a knife to sell you a bandage?
well said HRPufnStuf
Ok your example of stoning a woman for adultery. Jesus said that cast the first stone if you are without sin. He did not scratch the old testament, he presented it in the light of His mercy. It does not therefore defend adultery as it is still a sin that removes one of grace (spiritual death), but it can be redeemed by confession. The catholic church does not hate gays. Its cliche yet true, we hate the sin not the sinner. Catholics dont provide marriages for gays because it is no apart of our doctrine. We tolerate but do not accept their actions as just
It was the frailty of the man. Therefore fallible. The Pope is only infallible if he addresses the teachings of the Church.
The church has disregarded the vast majority of laws from the old testament, and we gave several examples. When Jesus explicitly says that he has not come to abolish the Laws, how do you interpret that to mean that the inconvenient rules no longer apply because he has fulfilled them? If he fulfilled all of the old laws, by the mercy of God, why do you still use them to justify intolerance of gay people?
So when the church tortured people to death that had no moral implications?
The Church doesnt disregard laws. As i said, Jesus came to fulfill the old testament before the mercy of God. The church doesnt abolish laws.
You may want to brush up on your biblical verses. Jesus explicitly says that he has not come to abolish the Laws.
" Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the Law "
Are you saying Jesus was wrong and the church is right to disregard laws?
the pope is infallible on matters of FAITH and MORALS only. the pope can still, and does sin.
I was under the impression that the Pope was infallible. If this is the case how has so much gone wrong for the church? Why are they trying two reporters for daring to do their jobs and report?
You are ignorant of the faith and seek to slander Catholicism. No individual is infallible, we all confess our personal sins. Tradition is concerning dogma and is stated upon the throne of Peter making it infallible.
and the church is most certainly not without sin. the number of terrible things done by the church is staggering. not to mention the terrible things done by specific popes. so why does the traditions of an institution which had a very long history of abuse, (repression, burnings, crucifixions, torture, etc) give it the right to make moral judgements. the Catholic church and its leaders have been mass murderers. no one should take its traditional moral judgements without question.
The old testament is fulfilled by the new testament which is the accounts of Jesus, the son of God. Upon being tested, jesus told the people to cast the first stone if you are without sin.
so the church can decide which parts of the Bible are true and which aren't? but its all the literal word of God? and you don't see how that is rediculous?
As i said before, Catholics have traditions of the church. I cannot vouch for Protestantism nor is it my place to
so you believe in stoning people for mixing fabrics and mixing crops in the same field? you can't pick one line of the old testament and say its the word of God and ignore the rest. it is rediculous. the church can't do it either. and the fact that they do shows they do not represent any God, only their dogmatic world view.
I do not pick and choose. I believe in the tradition as well as doctrine because I am Catholic.
the only place the Bible says that I'd right next to where it says to stone people go death for, well for alot of things. the Bible itself is out of date but the old testament especially makes no sense. you shouldn't make moral judgements based on a book that says to kill people for rediculous reasons like mixing crops or wearing clothes made of 2 types of fabric, or for marrying your brother's window, or for not marrying your brother's window ( yes it says both) or for a dozen other extremely stupid things. no one listens to the rest of it because it doesn't serve the agenda they want. but you can't pick and choose what you want. either it's the word of God and it all has to be enforced, or its the word of a bunch of old men that don't matter any more.
What am i supposed to believe then. My conduct is determined by my religion. Am i to assume that my faith's idea of sin is false because some religion is not against it?
if they aren't a part of your religion then it can't be a sin. they aren't a subject to your antiquated, dogmatic beliefs.
Upon his religion. If sin is based on theological beliefs, then the only argument is that you are wrong because of your religion.
It's wrong? On what grounds?
I have a problem with it. I will advise people not to do it. but I won't make gays not marry or hate gays.
pope francis has been smart about this saying "I will not judge"
I'm not going to take away the right to homosexaual marraige, but I will dislike it and say it's wrong.
That is fair. Are you saying that while your religion is opposed to same sex marriage you have no problem with gay marriage as long as it is not being performed by your church?
I think you guys are mixing up stating what I believe with making someone believe it, or saying one must agree. "I think homosexauality is a sin" is not the same as "you better agree that homosexauality is a sin, and we need to stop all homosexaual weddings"
It made it quite clear that you are going to play the victim instead of debating. This is a discussion about whether or not homosexuality is a sin. By definition that is a religious conversation because without religion sin does not exist. Things can be wrong without religion, but they are not a sin. There has yet to be presented a logical non-religious reason for opposing homosexuality, so it is fair to ask why your religion, in which it is a sin, gets to dictate policy to other religions in which it is not.
Also, we have never told you that it's about religion when you say "killing is bad". Sure, that is one of the ten commandments, but that's a general moral guideline, and I think killing is bad. This moral value has NOTHING to do with religion. Now if you say "one must not worship another God," THAT is pushing your religion on us. You are explicitly saying that you don't want us to worship another God.
Alex, reread the quote from the Bible. He explicitly says that he has not changed or removed the old laws. In what way is that vague? If you argue that one moral from Leviticus is still valid you do not get to ignore the others that are inconvenient without being labeled a hypocrite.
Oh and not to mention the bible, and the word of "God" always gets thrust upon atheists during these discussions. Yet "christians" are surprised when we argue back, as though a 2000 year old book has contemporary arguments for policy decisions.
This is a conversation about homosexuality. The tittle talks about SIN, I have not turned this into a religious debate. The OP has already decided that Sin (his religious belief) is being debated, so heaven forbid I should mention religion!
Please rephrase your argument as it is quite clear that a religious belief is the crux of this discussion.
I say "killing is bad" you go "you shall not kill is a commandment, religion warning warning warning religion. forcing religion, religion is being used, invalid argument"
that was a simple example but I hope you get the point.
The reason that atheists feel like you're imposing your religion with your positions on social issues is because you're using religion to justify your position.
Why do atheist always think that when I say "abortion is bad" that is forcing my religion upon others? just a weak argument you use when your losing the debate.
Dave, Jesus broke many laws, he says we should still look at the laws, we have the Torah in our bible. but he does not say follow every law, he even broke some laws. God gave peter a vision in which he said to eat all kinds of meat, like pork.
What gives you a right to impose your religious beliefs on people who have no interest in your religion?
When did Jesus say that exactly?
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Where exactly do you think that leaves wiggle room for you?
Jesus came he said those laws were not important because he didn't follow them. he said to keep the ten commandments. the Tradition of the church tells us what is right and wrong along with scipture.
I've already said this we have Tradition to tell us what laws to follow. hahaha.
Prodestants don't have Tradition and they rake the bible literally so I'm curious to see their response to that argument.
well since it is written in the same book in the Bible where is says mixing kinds of fabric is a sin. oh and planting two crops in the same field. and lots of other incredibly stupid things. somehow I don't think you should use it make moral judgements.
No homosexuality is not a sin, but homosexual actions are. The former is temptation but the rather is acting against God's will.
Yeah... about that.. THERE IS ALREADY OVERPOPULATION!
I would like to ask if "God" says homosexuality is a sin, why did he create non-self aware animals, such as rats, that show homosexual behaviour when in overcrowded conditions?
Alex, your church's tradition is not a valid response. A group of old white men got together and decided which rules inconvenienced them and said those ones don't matter anymore. If the Bible is the word of God, how can you possibly justify men saying "we don't like this rule anymore"? For it to be a valid excuse for why God hates gay people but not you for wearing mixed fabrics and working on the sabbath you would need to justify why God changed his mind about the rule.
Since you brought it up, when did God revoke the commandment not to work on the sabbath? Everyone does so now, whether with household chores, employment, cooking or some other form of labor, so when did that commandment stop being a big rule?
I think that homosexuality, going beyond the moral concept, is strongly hinged on a biological agenda. That's why there are people who believe that gender is likewise fluid because it's raising the notion that sometimes we are just born with it.
In Christian belief, even the idea of a predetermined sin is already set in stone, the idea that we have already sinned even before reaching this world, as a consequence of Adam and Eve's actions. That's why we were told we needed to be baptized. But, if you try and deconstruct it, their actions were based on moral desires, choices they have made with their own flesh and blood. This is highly contradicting to the idea of homosexuality being a natural occurence instead of moral repercussion.
When you try and ask any homosexual, they'll tell you that it's been their nature; it has not been their choice nor has it been their parent's choice. The question that is embedded therefore in their mind is why should they, as a human being, be wronged when in the very first place it was not their own choice to be born that way.
"We're all in the same game, just different levels, dealing with the same hell, just different devils," a quote I've got out of social media. When you try to incorporate the problem at hand with the quote, these homosexuals seems to be at a harder level in life because they are being targeted by prejudices and social stigmas. And quite frankly, we are the 'devils' that condemn them.
For me, the idea of a sin is not just hinged on the historical significance and religious belief, but also that the term 'sin' have evolved into a term we coin with being wrong. We tend to judge people because we have ourselves to be the witness and be the comparison. I have many friends who are homosexual but I don't think it's their fault in doing so, I don't think it makes them less of a worthy human, and I don't think it's their sin.
ok, let's say they are both outdated. we turn to the 2nd truth of the church Tradition. the teaching of the church. Tradition tells us what is a small rule or not. it tells us gay marraige is wrong. I've never heard the church say that a cotton blend is wrong. That is why you need Tradition along with Scripture.
go take that argument to a prodestant. they don't belive in tradition and take the bible literally. you should win.
so who decided that mixing cotton was a small rule and homosexuality was a big one? you are just deciding these things to try to defend the things you want to believe. there is no difference in the Bible between the rule about mixing fibres and the rule about homosexuality. they both outdated.
There are hundreds of rules like that in the bible. they were made to keep us as far from sin as possible.
for example the bible says to only walk a certain number of steps on the Sabbath. this is a part of the keep the Sabbath holy commandment. that small rule was put in place so if people break the small one, no big deal. better to break a small rule then a large one. I'm not sure why the cotton blend rule was made, but it was a small rule to keep people away from a sin.
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
it is a sin in the Bible, as a Christian I say stop shoving this down people's throats.. we are all flesh it is said we all sin and have sinned no stopping sin just pray have faith and have a good life...
If you don't believe in God, Allah, The Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other deity in that wonderful fictional place in the sky, who is there to judge whether an action, or in this case sexual preference, is a sin?
they ignore large parts of the Bible that aren't useful to push their particular agenda.
yes but homosexuality is addressed in the Bible, and it just seems they ignore some parts of the Bible and not others.
unless you are saying there are things in the Bible which are not from God.
I put the direct quote from the Bible, how exactly is it unclear?
Is it a blend of two fabrics? If so it was addressed by God. Try again.
Christianity is "follower of Christ" we follow the laws of Christ and of God, not those of men. polyester and cotton blend was never addressed by God.
Are you saying that God had no part in writing the Bible, or is that a rule that Christianity has outgrown?
Well, the 3rd is pretty much determined by the last two. It's not hurting anyone neither physically nor emotionally, and it's given consent. All it is is just marriage with someone of the same gender. There's nothing immoral there.
Polyester itself is fine, but Leviticus 19:19 says
"Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."
So wearing cotton - polyester blend is prohibited by the Bible, and I'm going to guess you do that on an almost daily basis. Keep in mind, this rule is from the same book as where people draw the rule against homosexuality.
um what? a polyester is ok to wear. nothing wrong with it. that was a man made law, not a commandment or something God said/dod.
God made adam and Eve. man and woman. not man and man. he made it so only a man/woman can reproduce. God's plan is for most people to get married and have children, not get "married" and have no children.
What do you believe makes it morally wrong? You are asserting that it is without actually giving any kind of valid reason. Your religion says it is wrong, but it also says that wearing a cotton polyester blend t-shirt is morally wrong, so maybe it isn't as reliable as logic.
2. no physical harm
3. morally right
gay marraige only has 2/3. that's an F and a sin. unless you don't believe in morals.
this question is a matter of morals, and what you believe is morally correct.
Consent was always important. Even if you aren't physically hurting someone, rape is still wrong. That was said long ago so even though you have been ignoring it, it is not changing the requirements. Unless you are advocating that rape is fine if no one is hurt, you really aren't helping your position with this line of argument.
again marraige to an animal hurts no human. so following your statement it is none of my concern. most likely now you are going to change your argument and say the animal doesn't give concent. so to be ok to you it needs to
1. not hurt anyone physically
2. be agreed opon by both people.
does not matter if it is morally correct or not? right.
But a murder hurts someone. homosexuality does not. it is therefore none of your concern.
if you go out and kill someone pajrc does that affect me? nope. so I should ignore it?
Alex, animals are incapable of giving consent so it would be rape. That would be why, even if it doesn't physically harm the animal it is still wrong.
also, if you are going to randomly pick out parts you like and parts you conveniently ignore (from the Bible), please only pick the parts that affect *YOU* and stop taking away basic rights.
The Bible got the most simple moral question incorrect (slavery), what are the chances that it's going to get something as complex as sexual equality correct?
Alex, that's by far the most convoluted take on what he said. The only reason marrying an animal would be wrong is if it harms the animal, which I don't care to debate, but It doesn't matter if any person is harmed. Harming animals is wrong, that would be the contention.
well if one decides to have marry an animal that is hurting no human, but is wrong.
Yes it is, but gay people are not hurting anyone, so your attempt to draw a moral connection to killing shows that you don't really have any valid arguments so you are resorting to emotional ones.
animals kill each other for reasons other then food. is killing natraul?
but since there are hundreds of other species that engage in homosexuality it is by definition natural. you will need some kind of evidence if you want to say otherwise.
man and woman reproducing is natural.
man and man same gender, is not natural.
yes, but we already have enough people. There are definitely enough heterosexuals to keep the generations going. Besides, it's natural, and if you take away rights because of it, you are a bigot.
I'm not saying that homosexuals should have privileges. A privilege would be something like gay people not paying taxes. Like churches don't.
homosexuality is the key to less population growth. -_-
If Homosexuality is a SIN then so are you.... Fuckwad
According to the bible it is.... but also according to the bible you are not supposed to eat pig meat, and how many Christians honestly don't eat pork? The bible is outdated and if there is a God, I don't like him if that's what he believes.
Just a question, but how did this argument get in the music section?
ok. it is a good book if you ever have the time.
I will read it when I get a chance to get around to it ( I'm pretty busy person ). I know the faith and its teachings, I spent most of my life in catholic schools and was taught by nuns, monks, and priest.
I looked and I found several high Schools recommend it such as mother of divine grace syllabus. this syllabus was written by smart people.
I know you don't trust me, but as I said a priest with multiple degrees recommends this book highly .
Also look online at the reviews almost all 5 stars.
BigB you need to read this book it explains the Catholic faith very well.
and since your whole opinion is based on what other people think, I'm guessing that you know nothing about the author either
I haven't seen any evidence that anyone super-smart recommend his books. The only recommendation I can find is you. When I searched his name online all I find your high school website. As far as I can tell no one super smart knows who this guy is.
Super smart people looked at all his books and said "Wow, these books are really good" You are saying don't trust smart people and if all we know was he was a catholic priest and a high school teacher then he is automatically wrong.
Oh wait he's a priest so he must be wrong!!
I now remember how you think .
do you actually know anything about the author? Because all I can find about him is that he was a high school teacher. Just because someone recommend the book is not mean that the author can be trusted.
And many others recommend these books.
it was written in 1928 so not much is know. A highly intelligent highly trusted priest who as a I said has many degrees recommends these books. He would not have done so if they were not true, or were written by a crazy person.
he is some obscure high school teacher who wrote a series of books decades before you were born. I can't find anything about him. So for all I know you could be some old paedophile. Why would I believe this guy when I don't know anything about him. Writing books does not mean that you're right.
Ok you disagree with the priest with a degree in aerospace from The Georgia Institute of Technology and another degree from Notre Dame. I choose to listen to the brilliant priest over you.
I did a search on him and his book series. all that came up were highschool book sales. there were no discussions on the book online. which as a rule means it isn't a very important book. it seems to be just an outdated highschool textbook.
it is current the church did not change anything he wrote about. Vadican II did happen, but did not change the churches view on creation. This book series is widely recommend today.
These books were part of my course made by a priest with a degree from Notre Dame and a degree in aerospace from the Georgia Institute of Technology. Though not much is known about Fr. Laux, many brilliant priests like the one above have recognized his knowledge.
And it was written in 1928. it is in no way current.
That guy is just a high school teacher. he is not exactly the foremost expert on the subject.
BigB I strongly suggest you read chief truths of the faith by Fr. John Laux. Section II describes creation and God pretty clearly, and says what is required to believe, and what is not. The big bang is not required to believe.
pajrc He created it out of will he wanted a universe so a universe came to be.
BigB Do we know for sure God created the big bang? Could he not have created everything without the big bang? God could have. The church only requires us to believe God created everything from nothing, and humans in his own image. The church leaves the question open as to evolution and the bid bang. The pope, I know believes in evolution. I believe only evolution only happened in an animals species, but did not create a new species. They could have, but I don't think they did.
I was when mentioning the prodestants explaining how they were different from us to pajrc and others. Now I have been watching the pope and the prayer service he did with the other religious leaders was my favorite part of his trip.
How, exactly, does God create the universe, Alex?
*on its own
The big bang happened, that much we know. No one can explain how it came to be, I believe God is the reason for it and was so intelligent that He created something that can evolve on its on
Did you not fallow pope Francis and the message he was trying to get across when he came to the US?
Ok, I love the church and the tradition that follows it; I'd happily die for my faith (which many 'Christians' would not). I say that because many 'Christians' are not Christian at all; I saw the post of you dogging on our fellow brothers and sisters of the protestant faith, both of the faiths are working to the same goal. They are not blasphemers or anything like that.
I asked the intelligence of God because, God can create everything and that includes many different worlds or universes. Can God not create something that is on going? God can not intervene on everything because then He would not be God; God has to be God to everybody, in Acts 10 says that God has no favorites
Not to be insulting in any kind of way, but people who do not read and strive to understand the world around them and blindly follow what a human being says (which the pontiff is still human and can not have a say on doctrine on man and evolution and how the universe came to be, that is for God to answer)
A magic being blinking life into existence is not logical. especially when there is no evidence he ever existed.
I don't think you understand me well bigB have I said anything against the Church? If so I'm sorry, but I'm sure I did not.
God's power is unlimited and impossible to understand or limit
BigB do you believe in the Carbon creating life?
I think it is not logical and God creating life is more logical.
Why would you limit God's power? Why would you limit God's intelligence?
whoa... we are carbon life forms (star stuff). You say you are Catholic but yet you have a blind sided way of thinking things
I am logical. Know what is not logical Life coming from Carbon, or lighting or a chemical reaction as I have heard people say.
Give up guys. you can't use logic to argue with someone who is illogical. His archaic thought patterns won't allow him to think critically. he is completely brain washed. he drank to cool aid.
You can't break science with science.
Can something bigger then science break science?
Because science doesn't accept "a miracle happened" it is provable. Scientists have been wrong, but they leave themselves open to that possibility so that we find out what is true. Religion hides behind magic to explain away impossible things them attacks anyone who disagrees.
My point stands. You cannot break something that we know is fact, regardless of what your are.
That is a convenient cop out way of avoiding saying that you have no idea.
God can break science laws. simple. science cannot break it's own laws.
About the life thing, that is beyond my knowledge, but God is just as illogical as you are saying the THEORIES are.
Well, where did God create his stuff? Nothing!!!!!
And what did he use to create life?
The Big bang includes taking away matter to make space. This could be why we can't take away energy/matter today because we aren't taking away the space. We don't know, but we are thinking.
Law of science- Energy cannot be made or destroyed. The big bang creating energy breaks this LAW.
Law of Science- Life cannot come from non living things. Carbon creating life breaks this LAW.
logic and reasoning lead us to God.
And how does it go against science? I've already explained to you that it makes negative matter along with matter/energy.
And God came from nothing, the world , according to you, came from nothing. Keep making it up, I'll be glad to hear that logic and reasoning cannot cross one's mind. Insert sarcastic facial expression here.
Because someone made it up
I do not make up anything. I tell you what has been around for years and what the church teaches.
yeah of course God can't break science, as long as you make up what God is, just ridiculous
Would this thing be a supreme being, creater of the universe? Able to make stuff from nothing.
You have no idea of how the world began. The big band goes against science laws. Science can't break science, but God can.
Alex, grow up.
I can't stand you.
I don't know, but I think of an answer.
You "know", but you never think about it.
And just because I don't know, God doesn't have to exist. There could be something other than God that is doing it. The thing is, neither of us know. But I'm thinking of it. I'm using logic to see what can be true and can't be. Once you grasp the fact that you need evidence to support a claim, you have officially converted to atheist. Also, the burden of proof lies on religion. I technically can't disprove it. But that's not my job when I reject a claim. It's your to prove it.
You said he lives rich. I proved you wrong deal with it.
Just a small hotel room. That makes everything alright then.........
I don't know is also not evidence.
Look up how Pope Francis lives he ate with the homeless, rather then congress, his room in the vadican is very small, he lives a simple life. that is why so many love him.
His hotel in DC was a regular small hotel, not a big suite.
OH MY GOD YOU ARE DOING IT AGAIN
DO NOT BACK OUT OF EVIDENCE FAITH IS NOT EVIDENCE
That's right, avoid every point I just made like a good christian.
For salvation you need faith and works. sounds like you have 1 part, works done good, you now need faith.
According to a priest at my school
It is possible for you to go to heaven without faith. But if you like others in this app have left the faith, you have knowingly and willingly turned away from God. If you have not, but know God is real, and the Catholic faith is the one true faith, you cannot be saved.
An example the priest gave was an islam family living in Iraq with little knowledge of the Catholic faith, who lives a good life will probably go to heaven.
And if we're talking TOP religions I would put Catholicism right down there. Your history is solidly pathed in other peoples blood. And you can say the past is the past or well at least we don't fly planes into buildings but your history is no better. Yours is the only religion where your head honcho sits in a palace laced with gold, billions of dollars in the bank, its own STATE. What the hell would Jesus say if he came back to that? Wealth, power, war, child abuse, discrimination. Pretty much everything they guy spoke against. But your right of course because that's what religious people do; they believe out of all the religions and gods THEIRS is the only REAL one.
Have you ever sinned, done anything wrong?
And my point is I would not consider myself a sinner. I always look out for the people I love, try to make the correct decisions in life and help the helpless whenever I can. But apparently that is not enough and I will burn for all eternity in a sulfur pit. Oh this is after you guys public ally stone me to death. Commanded in the bible.
sorry, I ment I am a Catholic so I think catholics are the best, if someone is a hindu, they think Hindus are the best and so on.
My point is no religion is without sin.
It's like the holy gay haters don't even KNOW their contradicting themselves! Christians do not consistently apply the Bible?s commands but pick and choose what they want. For example they forbid sex outside marriage but are happy to eat shellfish and wear polyester although these are forbidden in exactly the same books of the Bible. And christians disagree profoundly amongst themselves about what is right and wrong.
Did you really just say that Catholicism is the closest religion to not having sinners? You turned on your TV in the last 50 years?
Give me an example of one. A religion without sinners, Catholicism is the closest to this.
One that is truly peaceful would be one that helps people, can think of their own moral actions, does not hate on those who are different, does not force their own opinions on those who do not believe that way, etc. It is entirely possible.
Can anyone on earth be truly peaceful? Can anyone or any religion not hate? as Catholics try to be holy and not sin, we all fail.
as pope Francis says " I will not judge"
The pope is in favor of man and woman marraige. I would say being gay is a sin, because you choose to go against God.
Sorry for the late reply, I was sleeping. But Dave's right. What do you think about gays? Do you think that they are sinners? Then you are just as hateful as anyone else. Was there anyone that annoyed you to the bone and you just didn't want to be around? Everyone has at least one, except for maybe recluses. That is hate. You cannot expect us to join your "religion of peace" when you cannot return peace.
Why are you opposed to gay marriage? Why does it matter to you what they call their relationships?
We don't attach people's rights, we. lice our opinion, and refuse to participate.
We do not hate. Some Christians do hate and that is a sin.
Who is without sin. Jesus said that to the Pharisees who thought they were the best.
Only God can judge, he can kill the wicked, he did this s lot in the old testemenent
Everything you said could be applied to any religion. Saying that you know because your holy text says so is pointless. I have read the Bible, so I am aware that there are some parts with a positive message and some in which God destroyed men, women and children for being wicked. I moved away from the church because when I looked at the hate and intolerance in the world so much of it is being justified using religion. I couldn't, and still can't, understand how the same God can say "judge not lest ye be judged" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" but would want his followers to attack the rights, and sometimes the people of those who are different.
I'm sorry I didn't notice the replies on this yesterday. So apparently I CHOSE to be gay!, just for your information, the only thing we CHOSE was how open we were about it. People like you are the reason people like me find it so difficult growing up. People can be cruel enough about the idea of someone being gay but the so called Good Christian folk are by far the worst. If believing in god means you must turn into a closed minded, unnegotiable and down right rude ****** then your perfectly welcome to him whether he's real or not; I want no part of it.
that's a perfect example of circular reasoning, that's like saying I know flying monkeys are real because they do... also Jesus didn't write the gospels.
I think my God is real because He is. Jesus is God and he explains things such as God is real, heaven and hell and other things. read the gospels.
I thought we were just naming gods since you didn't respond with an argument.
They actually believe in several. No offense to you but what makes you think your God is any more real or convincing than those who predate him?
Not trying to be mean or offensive towards Hindus or other religions, but the Catholic faith is the one true faith.
Also at least Hindus have enough sense to believe in a god.
What if your religion is wrong and Hindu is right? By believing you we will have condemned ourselves.
It is very hard to go to heaven if you don't believe. I want you to go to have a better chance of going to heaven. Thinking like the devil does not help you go to heaven I want you to get closer to the one true God to better your chance of salvation.
And if you're saying I can still go to heaven, why are you still trying to convert me? You obviously know that I can still have a happy afterlife, so why do you care?
How is that so? As you said, I'm thinking like the devil.
If you don't believe you can still go to heaven.
Ok, what I'm saying is:
Let's say I believe. I kill three infants, steal 5 precious gems, rape 10 women, bomb the white house and assassinate a priest. Then I repent my sins. I still go to heaven for repenting and believing.
In reality I don't believe. Since no matter what I do, I'm going to Hell for not believing, I can do what I want with the same result. I do the same as above. I still get the same punishment as not doing those treacherous things, so really, who cares?
Because I don't believe, you may say I have nothing to live for. It's the exact opposite. I have nothing to die for. I have everything to live for. (quote from someone who I can't remember but does that really matter now).
umm yeah you would be able to interact, good job
You don't care if you get eternal tourture or eternal happiness?
What's the point of heaven? Who cares if you exist? Who cares if I exist? If I can repent my sins, who cares what I do? I can just do whatever the heck I want. And if I don't even believe I go to Hell, then who cares if I do some other things with it? I will go to Hell either way.
And if you are right, there is still no point to life.
And relying on a deity to help you out with a task is 1. not showing skill and 2. not going to happen due to the impossible factor that can make you find something, losing weight, winning something etc. without working at it. If you work at it, you are not using God's power. If you really think eternal happiness is at the end of this life, you can stop:
-Using a seatbelt
-Looking before crossing the road
-Putting safety on a gun
-Being careful with a knife
And the fact that I can respond to you is technically an interaction. If I was a computer, I wouldn't be able to interpret what you said.
But if you are right there is no point to life, life leads to nothing l, so I can do whatever. How is going to mass 1 hr a week and praying a few minutes a day wasting your life. I put most of my time in life into my work, then my friends, family and God.
with your argument about observation, how do I know you're real and not a computer or something. I can't physically touch you or observe what you might look like. Your argument about observation (imperical protocol) is a farce
That's a flaw. Any other religion could be right, so we would both be wrong. And we would both go into their hell and stay there for however their religion says. And if I'm right, you waste your entire life, your only life on God.
Then, the people with the hallucinations/imaginations etc. would compare. They would write/draw what the got with the power of God and compare. If they were different, they weren't given a vision. If they were the same (like, exact same), I would be wrong. But they did not do anything to compare and contrast because they just wanted to believe. God would have them compare so they could prove they had a vision. They did not do anything to show they had the exact same vision.
And once you see why you can Zeus a myth, you can apply that to all deities.
Let's say your right I get nothing you get nothing. Same thing for both.
Let's say I'm right believe and You may go to heaven. Don't and you may go to hell. Different. Believing in God rewards you I mean why not believe.
Answer these 2 questions. Why were the hallucinations all agree? If they were crazy people why did the writings written at different times in different places agree?
Did you know: Those could be many different things, like hallucinations, imaginations, etc. Also, the people who wrote it down were caught in the illusion (if it is one) because that's what they saw. We don't actually know if they were seeing things or not with only writing, because the writing works with their thoughts.
About going to hell after die, what are you going to do when I'm right and there is no afterlife? Nothing. Literally, you won't exist.
1. Thomas touched the wounds of Christ and then believed.
2. Other people have had visions of the God, and seen him as Christ, or seen angels.
3. not much technology back then, but they had writing if that counts as recording.
4. Jesus is God and Jesus interacted with the world. God has killed many wicked people in the old testemenent. And raised others.
I'm thinking about it, actually. You're not right, unless you prove me incorrectly. And about that prayer thing on the way to the mountains? I'm there. I've been there for a day. No lightning at all. Remember, you must have proof that is valid from multiple sources.
There is a rock. Do you know it's there? You may think it is, but it may be an illusion. So you get a friend. He also sees it. Now you both hold it. But maybe it's still your mind tricking you. Then you take a picture and a scale. They both can record it. But maybe they are doing a scheme to trick you or something. So you use it to interact with something else. You throw the rock at a tin can, for example. If the tin can is knocked over, that is a fourth time you observe it being there. If it doesn't, then it has been fooling you the entire time.
These are 4 parts to analyzing something more than an illusion.
1. Sight and touch. You see and touch the object.
2. Peer observation. A peer observes the object.
3. Instrument record. You use tools and instruments to record the object.
4. Object interaction. The object interacts with another thing and will do something to it if it is real.
We can use this to determine if God is real. All 4 parts must work together to make it real.
1. Someone may see God, but not touch it.
2. A peer may see God, but also not touch.
3. No camera or scale can record God.
4. God cannot interact with the world, as many people have proven.
This shows that God is an illusion. You must be able to verify the existence with all 4 parts of reality. If I got something incorrectly (which I haven't), tell me.
God did not make people gay. The image is the soul. Your soul is in his image not your mind. You chose to be gay. God created no one, in his plan to be gay.
What, I ask you made the universe? How did life come from non life?
What is more logical, A bigger, powerful form of life creating us, or life coming from non life, and non life coming from nothing?
oh and on a side note. I'm supposedly created in gods image right? well, he made me gay so....
is it just me or does it seem to be the 'true believers' that are the most irrational, rude, non caring and obnoxious people you meet. And these people believe in words like love thy neighbour! religion is a farce, believing in a wizard. And some of these people are truly super intelligent!! I just don't understand it. And your right, you give them examples of proof and all they can do is quote scripture to you. It's a joke.
What if I'm right and hell is real? What will you do when you die think about it please.
Now, since whatever you think of has not been proven or is because of faith, I'm not arguing anymore, for real. Just live a normal life, and don't waste your life in what you think is true but has not been proven. Because you may be wrong, and you may waste your life. And think about things with absolute evidence and reasoning.
Ok, of religion good with science nicely, why is yours the only one that is true? Explain without bias. And make sure to include every bit of evidence that one of that religion would use in an argument. If religion goes with science, why is science slowly explaining what religion one did? Many scientific theories replace the stuff religion used. How many theories have we said,"oh, we thought blah blah blah was because of scientific stuff and observations but not we think it's because God wanted it to happen " or something like that? Exactly zero.
Yes I know God exists. He is not unknown. You refuse to let God speak to you.
You left because you didn't get what you wanted. you are like a little kid storming out because they did not get their way.
Religion does not go against science, they go together nicely.
You are going to say something irrational and I know it.
Do you KNOW he exists? No! You can't explain a magical being making everything because you have no logic behind it! You just need the proof he exists. God wants people to believe him. I do not. Why can't he do something to make that so? I know God. I used to call him a real figure. Why did I leave? I saw no evidence. He never spoke to me. He never did anything supernatural. There is no ABSOLUTE certainty of God's existence (not absolute certainty in general) therefore he is unknown.
"A scientific discovery is also a religious discovery. There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world" -Joseph H. Taylor, Jr.
"The more I study science, the more I believe in God." -Albert Einstein
"The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who -in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'- cannot hear the music of the spheres."- Albert Einstein
Some great minds who have done more in science and the betterment of mankind believe in a God. I'm willing to bet that any of y'all have done anything close to what these people have accomplished on life and know more than any of us and yet submit to a higher being and praise God
let me make this unknown known. God is the unknown to you. He us known to most of us.
Ok, you say you don't need evidence to prove God exists. You say he wants you to have blind faith, nothing else. That is backing out of evidence. Ok, my contradictions may be wrong, but that's not your proof. It just means I was wrong on one part. If you have ABSOLUTE evidence, one that actually happens, and cannot be explained by ANYTHING else, you have me there. That's what science is. If we can't explain it, we leave it unknown. Just because we don't KNOW what the cause of something is, doesn't mean we get to explain it with something we don't know is true or that we can't reason that it is true.
Ok. let me say I go to mass to worship only. What do you do go to a atheist meeting or something.
What evidence am I backing out of.
you are not answering my question about the contridictions I proved wrong because you know I'm right about that.
Ok, first, in going to address that you are backing out of evidence. That's what delusions will do. You don't want to give it up, so you try to think of a way out of proving.
Then, I'm saying the morality thing because it proves religion has only one reason to keep (before it was too explain stuff, but science has done now) and that's community. It does not teach morality. It does not explain anything if the world anymore. It does not determine where we go after death. If you give me proof, my statements may be incorrect.
Religion has community. It brings people together every week for gathering. You get to meet people, have some refreshments and hope for the best about others. That's the only thing we need in religion. Not stories, not morality, but community.
Have I not proved your bible contradictions wtong?
Did I say the bible is the basis of morality.
Yes, science IS open-minded. But it requires evidence. A theory cannot be thrown away without contradicting evidence. Or no logical explanation at all. Religion, on the other hand, you think of an idea, ignore evidence that proves it incorrect then keep it forever. The errors in the Bible for instance. If you said that was the basis of morality, being sexist, judging others on the way they live and using slavery is moral. Think of what you would do as a God. Now think about the one who hasn't.
Science is open minded. Say God is real to a scientist see how open minded they are. The Catholic Church has been wrong about things and we have had some bad popes, bishops, priest.
How many people claim to have seen Bigfoot. not many. But how many people have seen, or had visions of Christ thousands. How many believe billions. Why did Christans not die out when we were outlawed? because God is helping us. How did Peter and Paul escape jail? God.
The "truth" is completely made up. You can't claim something unless you have evidence. You can't even back out of it. God may want you to have blind faith, but Satan thinks otherwise. Surely HE would prove it.
Alex, many people said they were abducted by aliens. Some say they saw bigfoot. Some even thought the Earth was flat (guess who!) . Did you know that you could be.... wrong? Accept the fact you cannot support your claim.
You know why it's called the big bang THEORY? Because it IS! No one is 100 percent sure, but at this time it is logical. Science and religion is different in these ways. Science is open-minded to other options, while religion says there is only one and that will be it forever. Talk about sad beliefs.
And the truth is lost on you
Logic and reason are completely lost on you. when we don't fall in line for your mysticism you just start talking down to people.
Yes the truth is hard to understand, and we know you have trouble understanding.
all of which makes more sense than your version.
Maybe maybe maybe
Maybe it was 50 people and the story got exaggerated. maybe he did hide a bunch of food. maybe it never happened to begin with and he just told people it did.
Back in Jesus's time a small town did not have enough bread to feed 5 thousand. I guessing the trick was hide the thousands of loaves up his sleeve or something. and use misdirection to uncover them.
the pycho maniacs who wrote the bible agreed with prophesy written thousands of years before. The gospel writers have many of the same stories. Did these pycho maniacs get together and write different versions of the made up story they all happened to be pycho about.
Thousands of people go to magic shows all the time and don't know how they did it. the only reason they can't claim they are the son of God is because people today require more proof and do more checking.
Technically there is no proof for the existence of god except for the bible. It could have(I am not saying it was, but it could have) been written by a bunch of psycho maniacs. the same could have happened with the theory of evolution.
the fact is that the meaning of life is life, but homosexual people cannot create life, but there is already overpopulation.
as well as that, some animals can be homosexual. I don't think people see anything wrong with that.
also, someone cannot control who they fall in love with. that is just impossible.
in the bible it could say that being gay is a sin, but surely people repent for their sins? therefore it should be a pardonable sin therefore, not a sin.
5 thousand people witnessed something. You say they made it up.
There is no proof he ever did miracle. people believed he did. that doesn't mean he actually did any of them.
Also, what contradiction? If you want to see the truth, look up "Godisimaginary.com" 50 times they look at a way the Bible is fallible and God does not exist. Look up Bible contradictions. I've seen it before. Look up Leviticus 11:8 and there goes football. If God was omnipotent, then he would change every single thing into his looking. However, we are still using footballs. We are still having gay marriage. We are still having silly haircuts. I'm not forcing you to do my work for me. I want you to see that if God was omnipotent, he would have us following everything on the Bible. If he was forgiving, he wouldn't give us infinite punishment for minor crimes. If he was a God, he would make Earth a happier place second by second for everyone. And if you can explain the supernatural with known facts, you have me. But I know the truth. Don't waste your only life on what is made up! It's made up more than atoms, which make up everything! XD
If you're an atheist, that means you want absolute evidence for things that don't make sense.
the one who got the signature.
The pope believes in evolution, science and religion go together well because they both happened. I people have had visions this I did not make up, Jesus performed miracles, God is not a magician. He can do anything. this I know is too hard for you to believe.
What do you mean I have no proof? No proof that you are right? That would be correct! There is proof of evolution and that would be the fossil layer. If you want an explanation, look it up. There is no ABSOLUTE proof God exists. That is religion's fault. Because science is slowly explaining things religion did before, we can see no more use for religion. No one knew how the world worked before religion, and that's what it was there for. They made it up because they wanted to think they knew how the world worked. Science is disproving this.
Many things once explained by religion/supernatural stuff of now becoming explained by science. We learned that a deity did not make all the mountains, a lot of time and cooling of rock formed the mountains. We know that a floating invisible being cannot poof up everything (1st law of thermodynamics!!!). Don't argue that the Big bang did the same, because it took away matter (making space) at the same time. We know that we are just a bunch of reactions of cells and when we die they just stop reacting. We know we can't get lifted up by a non-physical force that can somehow control physical things. We also know that any claim must require evidence to support it. It also must be logical with what we have observed and inferred. A magical being is NOT an inference. It is not based upon anything, just a fear of death and ignorance of fact.
What would make you change your mind? I will put it as an analogy first. Imagine you are a teacher. Two new students say they studied. You don't know them at all. One has a parent signature saying he did. The other is just telling you. Only one is honest.. Which one do you give the credit for studying?
You're going to talk to others about whining. whining is like 75% of the things you say.
Your contradiction was false. no need to whine about it. You were wrong acept it. You have no proof.
All of your arguments are not valid until you show some evidence. I know you keep taking about your faith rather than the outside world because you can't think of evidence.
pajrc. Why would I go against God to follow men. this is stupid. I suggest you turn to God because he is the only one who decides your fate after death. Not humans.
God the Father has no face. He is a spiritual being so no one can see him.
God the son, Jesus has a face to see.
Both are God.
And I bet he went to that mass because he wanted to see something new. You obviously do not want to see something new, even though it's only based off the Bible, which isn't the greatest thing, as I just said. He doesn't want to be a butthole, unlike those who force people into their beliefs. I'm not forcing you. I'm explaining why you could reconsider following things without evidence.
I understand the comparison, but I am not atheist, I am agnostic. I don't believe that God does not exist, just that I haven't seen any evidence of his existence. I tend to side against religious ideas on this app because many of them are in direct opposition to scientific evidence, which does have verifiable proof.
Genesis 32:30 I have seen the face of God.
John 1:18 and 4:12 Nobody has seen the face of God.
Give me am example I'm not going to do your research for you.
In the Bible, that's what it says. Look it up, find the verse. Then look in the Bible. There i
are contradictions. You can look on Google, "Bible contradictions" and lists of them will come up.
Dave I know a priest who was raised catholic, turned atheist saw it was stupid and now is the most religious person I know. He is really smart and I enjoy taking classes from him. You remind me of him when he was atheist. smart and stubborn. use you talents for God.
God can get angry and give people justice.
after animal, man before woman. what is wrong with that?
God is unchangeable? Then did we come before or after animal?
Man and woman at one time, or man first?
Does God's anger pass or endure?
Look at the contradictions. God would tell the writers of the contradictions, but he obviously did not. Would you really trust a guy who made about a billion contradictions?
I was raised in a religious family and still occasionally attend services.
Yes is does. if you say it a little less sarcastically. No God does not make sense that is why you do not believe him. Let's say there is nothing me and you would get the same. Let's say there's heaven, then why not believe, you don't get extra nothingness for believing in it. Why not try God, just in case he is real, which he is.
Ok, let's bring up the IPU again. There is no evidence that it exists, but you need faith. I still have no evidence, I just believe it exists. It is still a made up concept, unless I can prove otherwise. The same is here. If you have proof, tell me. If you don't, you can waste your entire life worshipping a magical being that created everything and got mad at a rib-woman that followed a talking snake by eating a fruit from a magical tree then sent his son that was actually himself then killed himself (even though he is strictly against doing so) to get forgiveness from himself because he made the mistake of making faulty people and you can get forgiveness more easily than dying just by telepathically accepting him as your master, drinking his blood and eating his flesh to take away a dark spirit inside ask of humanity because of his own mistakes. Makes perfect sense.
Yes people need to acept the Holy Spirit. Sadly many do not I go to mass many times a week and for many it is hard to focus the whole time on God. When the priest though God turns the bread into flesh it is a miracle.
Why did you go to that mass?
I have been to Catholic masses and saw no miracles. Beyond that many, if not most, of the people who are Catholic attend mass once a week and don't really think about it the rest of the week. Does that mean they didn't feel the spirit? What about people who are disillusioned with the church or fall away from it? They would have been raised surrounded by the Spirit but still lose their faith.
God is also unchangable. He does not change.
People still have visions today. After Christ there were no more prophets. Because Christ came to fully reveal God because he is God. Go to a catholic mass, Jesus is present on the atler, as flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit is upon us now making us able to believe. Even you though you do not acept the holy spirit.
That is circular logic with no evidence. You believe in God, therefore you can be sure he is real. If someone doesn't believe, the only way they can see the truth is to believe, so they will not see proof. This is not how God was in this Bible however. He revealed himself many times, worked miracles and spoke to people directly. Why did he change to hiding from us and demanding blind, unproven faith?
You think life is a joke, with nothingness that follows. Please stop and try to see God. God is real you will find out when your dead. I promise you do not want hell, neither do I. Heaven is what we should live our lives in attempt to get there.
So you don't have any evidence other than faith? Lots of religions have parables about people doubting and either being punished for it or learning to believe and being reborn. Christianity is not unique in that respect either.
Until you see you will never believe. Ever heard of doubting Thomas. Jesus says
Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.?
And wouldn't an all-knowing God know if you get into heaven or hell? can't he just send you there upon that? It would make things a lot easier for everyone. We wouldn't even be having this debate!
I'm not an atheist because it's cool
Or because I'm scared of God.
It's because of one fact.
THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON RELIGION
If you claim something, you must prove its existence. If you don't, I have no reason to listen to you.
That gives your belief, but it doesn't give any evidence. There have been many religions with religious texts and after lives. What proof do you have that yours is right?
Hope that helps.
Think of earth as a test or trail for heaven. You believe and have good actions you pass. You say God is fake, act bad you fail.
pass is heaven, fail is hell.
People have had visions believe them, that is closer to passing.
What isn't in the bible Hell is mentioned several times. You would rather have hell so you can have 85 years on earth. What part od happiness is scary. Nothing is scary.
Also, that is not evidence that he exists. Just because you praise and preach your religion did NOT make it true. You don't have supporting evidence. I doubt you ever will. Because you are repeating the same thing over and over again. Heaven is good, hell is bad. So? Sure it's good! You still haven't proven it exists yet!
Another thing, I can't CHOOSE between nothing and eternal happiness. It's either one or the other. I think that (us being just chemical reactions, therefore not having souls so we could not get to heaven or hell) death is final. Living forever is kind of scary. Think about it. You live forever, and ever, and ever. Once you question your own beliefs, like I did, you can see why I chose this path for myself. If I die and go to hell, then so be it. I may hate it, but I would rather be with people who can think for themselves rather than relying on a book to tell them.
So THAT wasn't in the Bible, was it? Could you still figure out out? Trust more than the Bible.
A law of biology is life has to come from other life. A star cannot make life.
God can break any rule he wants.
People do not go to heaven before death they have a vision. I may not belive you if you claim to have a vision. Your vision is either made up or cones from the devil. Unless you are like St. Paul and God has a special plan for you.
There have been miracles that break science laws. SCIENCE is broken. Humans cannot break science laws. God can however do anything good and just.
Finally, of I told you that I saw heaven (maybe pretend I am someone else) would you really believe me? You even SAID that it cannot be reached until death. How come he was able to report his findings? xD I bet this won't be finally.
Also, show me EVIDENCE of God. Make it so NOTHING else could have happened. That is how science works. If even a bit of evidence contradicts a theory, it is either modified or completely replaced. Religion, you can't change it, you just have to have faith in a human made concept from a book written with about at least 40 errors, absurdities, contradictions and misrepresentations of characters and no evidence supporting it.
There is a HUGE fault in your logic. You do not KNOW he exists. There is NO evidence that CONFIRMS CONFIRMS CONFIRMS the evidence. And I do not know either. There is evidence that confirms evolution. Take a look at the fossil layer. It is all in one chronological order, showing that the animals got stuck underground and buried. The reason we never find earlier fossils at deeper layers of because the animals of that time had not been alive, only the ones that hadn't evolved yet.
Next, the Earth came into existence from the sun. We know that. And about a million other stars. They crashed at this habitable zone, just like other stars were doing, and this was one that got in. Remember, this happened in billions of galaxies, so there was a chance that each one worked. We did. The carbon forms chains to support life.
Now, the Big bang includes a small place in the cosmos, not space, but not matter. Then, it became matter...
And negative matter, the space. This actually is possible, due to the fact that you are technically taking away matter/energy and creating new matter/energy. It's an interesting topic. You can look it up.
Heaven has an endless suply of good. You can not not be happy. what made humans, if not God. you don't know. I would love to hear your theory.
I cannot believe you choose nothing over happiness. That is for sure the stupidest, most idiotic thing I have ever heard.
Does anyone else want nothing over happiness?
You could also have eternal pain and suffering in hell if you don't believe in happiness. Your free will, your choice.
And, to answer your question, I know one can't have eternal happiness, due to the fact that the way we work is that we want variation. In heaven, you can do an eternity of things, then run out. You have to keep going and going. Also, it is not my choice if it is eternal happiness or nothing, so I choose nothing.
Now what you just said.... WOW. So heaven had someone attempt to describe it? That does NOT mean that it is correct. I must have forgotten the MOUND of scientific evidence supporting your beliefs (insert sarcastic facial expression here). Over 3k religions have been in existence. Give scientific evidence and training that YOURS is correct. If all of religion was weird out, could it still be true and someone will figure it out again?
No. You could not. The deity could not come back to tell you what if true. Some other nonsense could be in its place, but not that exact nonsense. There is no way to figure the exact words, because we made it up, and now it's gone. Science, however, would still be true because we can use a method to figure it out. Religion is a reaction of fear. We know there's nothing after death, but our mind wants to make it better. We want hope and a way out, or someone to talk to. It's not there, but there is a way to feel good about life.
You admit it is scary. You would rather have nothing then eternal happiness with God in Heaven. Heaven is everything good, indescribable. read revalation by St. John he actually saw heaven and tried to describe. God being always there and able to make something out of nothing is one of the greatest mysteries. Heaven is away from this world not reachable till death. The best way to describe heaven is- the most awesome Holy perfect place where there is only happiness, bordum is not happiness and does not exist in heaven. God is there with all the saints.
Jesus teaches to love your enimies. All good Catholics strive to do this. We all fail because we are not perfect.
God is omnipotent. He can do all exept evil.
Next to heaven life is almost nothing. Life's purpose is to know love and serve God in order to obtain perfect happiness with Him in heaven. Nothing from Earth matters to us. this is said repeatability in the bible, which I have read. The only thing that matters is God and heaven. None of these are from the earth.
Finally, why is life important?
And my purpose of life is to be happy and enjoy those around me. I want to make the world better morally and scientifically. I want to make sure people don't feel bad for who they are, just like anyone who supports the Bible truly. That would mean they can be mean to those who are different, "condemn" those who disagree and own slaves. Read your Bible. Know your facts. God is a man-made concept used to explain things not understood and control those who can not resist.
Also, I have one question. Is God omnipotent?
Well, what's the point of heaven? Also, isn't it kind of scary to exist for all eternity? Just going forever and forever. Wouldn't it get boring? Also, what's it like in heaven? Do you get to go around, poofing things up out of nowhere? Just like God did to us? Some people say something can't come from nothing, so that's their argument against the BB Theory. But what did God use to make us? Nothing! HA! If these men had really seen God, they would know exactly what you do on heaven, how you get there, how God made us out of nothing, maybe some impossible things for these men! Like finding the 1000000000000000000th digit of pi. Then we use computers to see if it's true. Maybe saying that a mountain was where they wrote it, but in the future it would move somewhere else (somewhere that they don't know of, just somewhere like America). We go to that place, and of it's actually there, that would be proof. None of these things have happened, so they never touched God. Even though they had enough faith to write a book about him, he never existed.
God gave us free will, we chose our pain. We chose heaven or hell. People in hell may wish there is nothing. Do you want after life to be eternal happiness or nothing.
If no one reproduced there would be no life. Life is important. what is the purpose of life for you?
I follow the word of God who can put me in eternal hell. the reason to live is to get to heaven. God created the world out of love. He needed to give his love to something, and needed to have something love Him back.
So what if we reproduce? Technically, there's no reason to live. That does not necessarily mean I want to kill myself. Besides, why was the universe created? If it was God, why was he created? If nothing were to exist, nothing would happen. Literally, nothing. God actually is responsible for the pain that we bring, whether it be literally or metaphorically. If we all become gay, so what? I may not find a cosmological meaning (42 XD), but I can find a joyful meaning on how I love my life. So can homosexuals. Others can surely help your "multiply because I told you so!" (that means he doesn't know why) take action.
God created man in his own image male and female he created them"; He blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and multiply"
Gays cannot be fruitful and multiply. male and Female he created us not male and male. Being Gay disobeys God directly. God's word is equal to the commandments. Because God spoke them from his own mouth. God is perfect. God is for man and woman. Gay is directly against God.
You are not answering the question. You said all sins break one of the 10 commandments. Which does it break?
Also, while the "what if everyone was gay" argument certainly provokes an emotional response, it is absurd and impossible, so perhaps you should stop trying to use it to justify your religious bias.
He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh
Jesus on marriage Mathew 19
Gays cannot become 1.
A family is a man and woman with children.
A man and man is not a family, and is against nature. Do you see any gay animals? No God created A man and a woman. God created no one to be gay. Think of a place with only gay people, this place will last 1 generation.
Which do you feel homosexuality breaks?
Pope Francis on gays "I shall not judge". and then "the family is in danger now more then ever." Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses, most of the laws were guidelines that people took too seriously. The ones about pigs was to make themselves different from pagans. The ten commandments are the real laws to obey. Every sin disobeys at least 1 of these.
the deleting is actually "something" I'm using Swype so I will make mistakes
Also, I'm not afraid of God's power. And if I don't believe something, that doesn't make it not exist. If there's no evidence, THEN it doesn't. Vice versa. If you believe deleting, that doesn't make it true. If there's evidence that can't be ANYTHING (emphasis a million times on ANYTHING) else, then it is true. But make sure to confirm it, do nothing else could've happened.
The Bible is not what should be guiding us morally. You question if it's a sin but still right. The Bible is not the foundation of morality. The first 3 commandments have nothing to do with being moral at all, just so people don't leave the religion. The next few are basic. Did you really need a book to learn murder or stealing is wrong? Also, Colossians 3:22 supports slavery. You know, I know, that this causes harm and is immoral. And, Leviticus 11:8 disallows touching pigs. It's not wrong. We even made a sport about it. Just because someone made a book fits NOT mean everything in that book is moral and going against it is immoral. What's so wrong with being gay, lesbian or any other gender/marriage type? Hating on them is actually more immoral than doing other things that are listed in the Bible. Murder ends their life, sure. But making their life worse and worse because you're not respecting what they choose? Then making them feel like they're not human? That makes them rather have murder. People would rather not feel anything at all than have negative thoughts about their will to live their entire life. If it wasn't religion, we would leave those who discriminate out. But with religion, you can leave those who are being discriminated against out. It's just a tax-free organization to leave others out and reduce critical thinking.
Look at the evidence, research it, look at it in a new way. Then, if you don't want to be immoral for being atheist, look at the stuff they consider moral and immoral. Usually, it doesn't have anything to do with morality, or moral stuff is apparently immoral out the other way around. Realize the world around you.
many atheists are afraid of God's power so they think if they don't belive he will not exist.
that seems illogical, when you love the idea of logical thinking
How can you argue something you don't understand or refuse to even look at?
Some people need to read the bible and stop reading about it. To understand the bible read it first. I would guess you're afraid of God.
It's a sin, but it is right? that makes sense.
Technically, yes. Homosexuality is indeed a sin. Is it wrong? No. We are allowed to be who we are. I am atheist. If you are allowed to judge those who choose their own way, I am allowed to judge the way you choose. It causes harm to someone, so it is immoral. That is all we need for morality. Empathy. Not religion, empathy. Because you couldn't figure out murder is wrong by yourself, right? Oh, in just joking.
That's right! And Lot slept with his daughters, not his sons!
God made Adam and eve not Adam and Steve
@theQueenofdebate yes it woud mean that. And since God does not make mistakes, homosexuals are not mistakes. They were created that way by God himself, who wants to see each and every one of us in heaven.
I'm seeing "it's caused by demons"... A question that might help to advance the debate... does the bible actually give an explanation for homosexuality?
I'm going to go ahead an right that down as the most fascinating tidbits of the day lmao...haha
excuse me miss deliriousmadam. you dont have the right to judge the bible as evil just as we have no right to judge you as one, for first of all it was never written in the bible that homosexuality is a sin. all are opinions based on how people understand and interpret, therefore any judgement is based on one's perception. maybe you should read the bible for it says that the Lord has come to call sinners, NOT THE PERFECT. i have nothing against homosexuals because i believe that the bible said to love one another and to not judge because we are all equal. just so you could justify yourself and your beliefs i don't think that it gives you the right to step on others'. BY THE WAY, SOMETHING THAT IS AGAINST YOUR WILL ISN'T AUTOMATICALLY EVIL FOR YOU ARE NOT THE BASIS OF GOOD. and I don't think that there is something wrong with being a follower and that I would prefer it than acting god. call yourself a hypocrite because you do not want to be judged and yet you have judged us so much. stop blaming the Bible for not all of us have the same opinions which means that the Bible is not the one judging you and is not your enemy but the people who are against you. a knife can be used to cut objects in a beneficial way but would depend on the handler if he would use it to kill. though there was never in history, a knife that killed on its own.
According to the bible, God created all humans. If some humans are homosexual, wouldn't that mean God created them to be homosexual?
I think that your a hypocrite doesn't your Bible tell you not to judge you ignorant biggot an you Christians always push God down plps throats some people don't wanna walk the way of your faith freaking deal with it an stop whining all the time live your life an stop worrying about other peoples sexuality it's our right to live the way we choose your evil book says I'm gonna burn in he'll for being with a women well guess what burn baby burn because I've never felt so loved appreciated taken care of listen to butterfly's the way my women gives them to me so fregg off the most evil in the world has been by Christianity self absorbed mindless biggest judging evil thing that ever was an even if it did exist I wouldn't walk with such evil I can think for my self that's your problem you can't you depend on being a follower
In today's bible, yes, it may be percieved as a sin, but there are many daily activities humans do that also may be percieved as a sin. Also, given the numerous amounts of horrific things going on in this world; rape, murder, theft, greed, people seem to use the bible to focus on and attack homosexuals for something they cannot help instead. If god is really so forgiving and kind, why would he hate his own creation for something he/she cannot help? That is both illogical and immoral.
According to the bible, homosexuality is an abomination, it also says that we should kill them.
Thankfully, the concept of sin is irrelevant in the 21st century.
the sin was made when you posted this
everybody sins. including those of us who believe homosexuality as a sin.
let me ask you a question... so if people dont procreate they are damned to hell? if people are born sterile, are they damned to hell too? therefore gays shouldnt be persecuted as a sinful act as long as they are loving towards another why the hell does it matter? people need to wake up and see that the bible was edited by the corrupt catholic church during the dark ages... and has also been translated hundereds of times. its according to someones opinion on whats the bible meant. i am catholic myself but this is just an outrage... the bible promotes loving one another, who cares if that person is of the same sex. the bible also talks about slavery... it doesnt state it is wrong. yet noone believes slavery is correct today. the bible was made to make peace not wars over stuff like this...
I believe you mean Leviticus 18:22
Even that passage may not be referring to homosexual relations as they are practiced today.
At the beginning of the chapter that includes this passage, Leviticus 18:3 states: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances." Here, God is saying that the Hebrews are not to follow the practices of the Egyptians or of the Canaanites. Homosexual ritual sex in temples of both countries was common. Thus, one might assume that Leviticus 18:22 relates to temple same-sex rituals -- something that was ritually impure.
So, it's not as cut and dry as you'd like to believe.
Do not mate different kinds of animals.
Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
If you are wearing anything cotton - polyester blend, you are sinning right now.
It also says that priests are only supposed to marry virgins and that mediums and anyone who goes to them must be put to death. Picking one rule to cling to while disregarding many others that don't suit your purposes is rather hypocritical. Many things listed as sins in leviticus are now accepted, so perhaps it is time to move on.
it says in liviticus 18:21 that it is a sin look it up in the holy bible
I don t see how this can be a sin.I mean,there are lots of parents abusing their children and in some Cases is considered to be "fallen from Haven" so this abusing aparently has "God approval" wich i think is stupid. At the and If the day the God argument is not a good one,we don t know what His plan is/was we only know what we shold do as society ,as human beeings, we should try to accept the differences and to try to teach out kids the same way. Sin or not sin we can accept it and live with it as we accept and live with lots of other sins and they don t seem to bother us that much. And to be honest i thing homophobia and it s promotion is much worst and is afecting more people than any gay person ever will. As long as they don t afect your life, they don t kill anyone and they play their role in the society well,i don t see how they could Be seen as the bad guys .
There is actually good arguments against homosexuality being a sin. The first is that the Bible never actually mentions monogamous homosexual relationships. It doesn't even mention homosexuality by name. There is no word in Latin that comes close to the meaning of homosexuality today. The original word used in the bible was more akin to sodomy. It wasn't until much later, during the Holy Roman Empire, that the word was changed to homosexuality.
Furthermore, there are some passages in the new testament that seem to be OK with homosexuality.
Verse 11,12: Jesus replied: Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it
Eunuchs were, of course, the body guards for female royalty. They were not allowed to be with women. They were often described as being very a feminine, etc.... He seems to imply that if you were born this way, and even if you were made this way by others, you are not subject to the same laws as straight people concerning marriage.
homosexualty is found in other 450 species. homophobia is found in one.witch seems unnatural now?
In my opinion it's fine very one can love who/what they want but the bible would say it was a sin.
I have a couple of points I'd like to make. First, the animal argument.
The reason we're using it is to demonstrate that homosexuality is not a chosen tendency, but a natural one. This means either God made a mistake by creating beings with homosexual tendencies, or he purposely creates them to have homosexual tendencies. So God is not all knowing and all powerful since he made a mistake, or he's purposely creating beings which are sick and then he commands them to be well, or he is fine with homosexuality. Therefore, God is either not the God of the Bible (I.e not all powerful or all knowing) , a malicious deity who enjoys creating suffering and pits people against themselves, or he doesn't care about homosexuality.
Next, the demon argument
If demon's really are causing people to act in a homosexual way, then they are not responsible for their actions. You wouldn't say a car is guilty when a drunk driver wrecks it would you? Then how could you say that an individual under the control of a demon is guilty of acting sinfully since the actions weren't his choice?
On to the "it's in the bible argument"
There is a lot of stuff in the bible that is technically a sin and no one seems to care.... Shellfish is mentioned at least 7 times where as homosexuality is mentioned once... Maybe twice? Why is there no moral debate over Shellfish, why aren't Christians killing anyone who isn't a Christian like the Bible commands you. Why are there Christians working on the weekend? Do I need to go on? The usual response I get to this type of inquiry is that Jesus has come and the old laws no longer apply or something of the sort. If that's the case however, then the rules against homosexuality no longer apply since the only mention of it is in the old testament.
according to bible, it is sin obviously but point is jesus christ forgive it
God created us to reason, so use yours and respond to the rebuttals rather than just spouting rhetoric.
You said that homosexuality was a human trait, we proved that was not so. If the minds of homosexual people are being manipulated by demons, as you claim, why are animals doing the same thing? You didn't criticize homosexuality as being succumbing to our animal nature, you said it was demonically inspired. Pick an excuse and explain it. Either explain why so many demons are wasting their time trying to get animals condemned to Hell for homosexuality, or explain why acting like an animal is acceptable to eat when hungry and sleep when tired, it is acceptable for heterosexual people to have sex, but for gay people it is not. Where does that distinction come from and why?
So you're Perspective or **Point of View ** is ""The Animals also seen Homosexual Activities""
What's Wrong With you people???
God Created HUMANS totally(incredibly) exceptional compared to other species or animal beings
So technically GOD doesn't like us to ACT like a animals thus, God created us to worship his Greatness and Divinity
Don't Act like a Animals people
I will add to psychdave's argument. There are about 500 known species which exhibit a sizeable population with exclusively homosexual tendencies.
You ask who manifests homosexual behavior, then come to the mistaken conclusion that it is just humans. Homosexuality has been seen in many animals. About 10% of rams (male sheep) are exclusively homosexual (will not mate with ewes, but will with other rams). Since animals don't have free will, that means one of two things. Either homosexuality is not unnatural or a sin, or God made a mistake when making people and animals, resulting in them being gay. Since pretty well all scripture agrees that God is perfect and does not make mistakes, I find the chances of religious leaders misunderstanding God's will far more likely.
Even we argue about their pathetic freedom or mischievous human rights it's never been good to be a homosexual person
And it's rooted to our human nature to be a man or to be a woman
But who manifest the homosexual sexuality around the globe, Is it a human right?
Therefore how can this human manipulate the MINDS of every homosexual person in earth..
My answer : because he/she is in a deception by a demon
That's why Being homosexual persons is a SIN a TEMPTATION that if you cannot control you will shall burn in the flames of hell
If you believe in God then you believe he has a plan for everybody. If you believe that then you believe he has a plan for homosexuals. If you believe that then you believe his plan was for them to be homosexuals. If you believe that then God either cruelly set them up to sin or he never said it was a sin in the first place. I believe the latter.
Nah, a cos * tan is a sin.