The debate "I'm Christian try to convert me" was started by
July 16, 2017, 4:20 am.
37 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 76 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
neveralone posted 8 arguments, bernie posted 1 argument, Threelip posted 1 argument, Allirix posted 5 arguments to the agreers part.
ThePhilosopher posted 1 argument, killer posted 1 argument, MrStealyogrill posted 5 arguments, Nemiroff posted 6 arguments to the disagreers part.
Ematio, neveralone, delbisa, RedstarIsWeird, HRGertge, amir_alhakim07, justincase, bernie, Damn, DrWho, Threelip, Bratzela, yoitzflex, trent, Allirix and 22 visitors agree.
ThePhilosopher, officiallsse, killer, imjustheretommorow, DanielSays, sssk, harkirankohli, maksonmakson, hollieg, swara, MrStealyogrill, anicasme, Deat, Repent_4_The_End_Is_Near, Nemiroff, romeroa251, sk25, YonkiMonoso and 58 visitors disagree.
evolution is a fact.
if God is the designer, he designed evolution.
explaining quantum physics and evolution to the people of biblical times was probably not God's primary concern. he was trying to teach them how to live with each other if anything. isnt it possible God skipped alot of the details of how the world works to tell a tale of how to treat one another?
I had a moment like that too. when I was taking anatomy and I was learning about the immune system. there was a complex of chemicals that came together almost like a transformer to blast a hole in a bacteria (+ some other things). the whole complex seemed incredibly complex and brought me to 2 instantaneous conclusions. a) intelligent design. or b) cells are sentient and so advanced their machinery has become sentient. (and that sentient machinery is currently developing the next level intelligence. (or at least the first part of that).
however, the most logical answer, after all facts are considered, is time. these features were built on older, simpler features. if you add 1+1+1+1, you will eventually reach trillions. given enough time.
God makes it clear that those who seek him shall find him. Now I'm not going to impose my opinion on anyone but I will explain what made me a Christian in hopes that you may get "inside insight" on what changed my mind. I was an Atheist until I questioned whether or not God was really there. I understand that direct/Divine influence doesn't make for a good argument. At a very young age, specifically, Grade 4. I asked myself how it could be that the Earth could be just the right distance from the Sun as the result of an uncaused Big Bang . I was particularly interested in astronomy. I used to watch every episode of the series presented by famous astrophysicist, Neil deGrasse Tyson, called " Cosmos : A space-time. Odyssey" . I was fascinated but I wasn't particularly thinking about God when I was watching. Believe it or not, I only came across more & more reasons to believe that God exists (I became more & more convinced at why I thought was "my" argument of Intelligent Design long before I even found out it was a thing. Now as for why I believe the Christian God exists is, you genuinely have to have an open mind & look around for yourself. For example, Atheist scientists may assert that After death nothing happens but as an ignorant Christian i denied until I read Ecclesiastes 9:5 which says "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward,For the memory of them is forgotten." That's just one these "Coincidences" that I found after open-heartedly seeking for a good reason to believe.
just a note, I dont mean "your god" or "your religion" as a reference to any specific person or debater, but in general saying that proving the possibility that a creator existed, doesn't mean that creator spoke to people or watches this little rock. you is in reference to all theists who think that by proving a creator they are proving *their creator*.
God is a logical point that is a fair answer to the ultimate questions. I do not believe it to be the only answer. however, religions are completely illogical. even if you convince me of a God, convincing me of your God, and your arbitrary laws and traditions is a far far ways away. as I said before, all religions are false.
gods treatment of the pharaoh is particularly evil. sure the pharaoh deserved punishment, but according to the bible, he only deserved the first 9 plagues. for the 10th plague, God removed his will and hardened his heart. forcing him to deny the release of the Jews against his actual will in order to justify further punishment. and that punishment was levied on every Egyptian family and their first born regardless of their choice in the crime. other stories do show a good god, this was the action of an evil god.
if there is a christian God, I think the most honest statement is that we were made in his image. failings, shortcomings, and predisposition to sins like anger and vanity included. And a ton of self righteousness.
or maybe with the bible being in human hands for millenia, including the corrupt Christian dark ages, the bible may no longer be the original holy text, but one that was corrupted by men. perhaps one should seek God using the mind, logic, and conscience that cannot be corrupted by anyone other then the one who created them.
at least that is what I would do if I believed in God. and that God probably wouldnt care if you believe in him, as long as you love and care for his creation and do good deeds. a good God would not demand belief, and would not play the carrot and stick game of heaven and hell. this is all false methods for humans to control humans.
for a while now you have been arguing that there must be a creator, but at no point did any of your arguments demonstrate a specific creator, such as the Christian one. or even whether he is good or not.
it is one thing to argue for a God, it is another thing to argue for your specific God. with the specific qualities and attributes.
how would early men (or even modern men) be able to tell the difference between an extremely beyond imagination powerful being, and a perfectly powerful being? are we to take his word? he may just be narcissistic.
the God of the bible has repeatedly disproven his perfection. he regretted his creation before the flood. he regretted the flood after the flood. a perfect being doesnt make mistakes, nor does it regret its actions. furthermore, he claims to not have human failings and sins, yet demands prayer and worship as if the only perfection he has is perfect vanity. especially the Christian god, who according to most interpretations, does not care about good works if you dont accept him and his son as "the true God and savior of men". that sounds pompous. even if a perfect being is deserving of such praise, I would imagine he would not demand it with eternal torture as the alternative.
You're right, they did "kill the child". Free will is a far more complicated argument. I was only trying to show how God's omniscience and omnipotence makes him culpable for their choice to "kill the child". This Problem of Evil / Epicurean Paradox is what made me lose my faith.
In a way, I guess you're right. I don't know why he would do that.I have thought about it but I admit that if He didn't do that, we wouldn't have been tempted & we wouldn't be sinners. I'm not God & it's not a sin to ask questions. But this doesn't change the fact that Adam & Eve willingly "Killed the child".
If you put your gun somewhere you know it will be used you are liable though. That's literally what we're talking about. God knew they'd grab 'the gun" from the tree, he knew his 'safeguard' of telling them there would be abstract consequences wouldn't work and he knew they'd "shoot it" so he is liable as well
Like I said, Though God may have created the forbidden fruit & put it at arm's reach to them (Adam & Eve). There were other choices for them, though He never pointed them out. If I am struggling with a cocaine addiction and I find myself faced with a random situation that gives me an opportunity (and maybe a motive) to relapse, though I could have gotten rid of it or LEFT. There is no excuse. No one is to blame for their choice. Pay no attention to the first example. I acknowledge your point about God putting the tree within the vicinity but you cannot really blame God for their decision or indecision. I cannot legally purchase a gun for my safety (let's say I attempted to hide it), then be held accountable for someone finding, after looking around (maybe just for valuables), and shooting people. The Act of me hiding it is a clear indication that no one but me is allowed to touch it, you intentionally looked around & found what I've hidden, realizing that I have made an effort to hide it, & used it to kill somebody. Don't blame God for their decision. Only three characters are to blame. Adam, Eve & the serpent (because he talked them into it)
Are you saying you're not at all responsible if you explain there will be consequences even if you know with certainty they will ignore it and still kill the other child? Responsibility is knowledge and power over a situation. God had both at the utmost extremes (omniscience, omnipotence) and chose to create a series of circumstances he knew would cause the fall. Whether we have free will is irrelevant since he knew how our free will would interact with his interference.
The problem with this argument, though it is a good one, is that the child still decided to kill the other one on his own free will. But if I explicitly said "Thou shalt not stab thy sibling with the knife I shall leave on my table", why would you do it anyway? I've told you not to & made it clear that there will be consequences, though I didn't specify what the consequences were. The child knew there would be consequences before he even killed the other child but decided to do it anyway... I admit that there is question on why God would put the tree there but it doesn't shift the blame on Him because He didn't do it or force you to, you gave in to a moment of weakness & the consequences were severe. NOTE: He never said "THOU SHALT NOT LEAVE THE GARDEN".
Any interference made by an omniscient being removes true free will. They know the casual chain produced by their interference and can therefore determine what you do by deciding how they interfere, even if as basic as planting a tree and saying "don't touch"
If you knew one of your children would kill your other child if you put a knife on the table, would you put a knife on the table? Would you be partially responsible for what happens if your child is killed? You may argue you couldn't know for certain that the child would kill the other child, but you cannot plead ignorance when you have omniscience.
An Omnibenevolent God would not directly interfere with free will & respect that one has it (Now it comes down to a preference of understanding, e.g. Do you prefer to be loved by your partner of his/her own free will or not?).So ultimately, Evil exists because we chose for it to.
But it still remains that they made the conscious decision, even though the temptation was there. And according to the Bible, the serpent intentionally influenced & convinced them. Their conscious decision to disobey God & give in to temptation could have even been avoided if they decided leave the garden on their own to avoid the sin altogether in a desperate attempt to avoid disobeying God. Therefore it was always their choice
I argue he implicitly interfered by putting a tree in the garden he knew we'd eat from
Because He didn't make you (Adam & Eve) eat from it. Sure, he knew that you would, but because you (Adam & Eve) have free will, he wasn't going to interfere with your (Adam & Eve) conscious decision, even if that means it goes against His wishes.
He knew we'd choose the tree if he put it there though. How is that free will?
abusive parents use the same logic. "your life is thanks to me so you must put up with any pain and suffering I put you through." once again, is this a good god?
yes, many atrocities are due to man's free will, like war and greed. but many have nothing to do with us, like drought or volcanoes.
if he wasnt going to force his will, why did he curse them for disobeying his will? he wants you to choose christianity with a threat of eternal suffering if you dont. you call that a good god?
I hate you for even suggesting that. Every breath you take is mercy from God. He loves you like a son or daughter. He love you more than the swallows and all his creation.
He gave man a conscious. He wanted to give them free will, so he put the tree there to give them a choice. He wasn't just going to force them to do his will, like he doesn't force us to be christians. He wants you to choose him.
Knowledge is knowing that you are naked, that you have the ability to disobey God and to sin. It sad. The Knowledge part was knowing that you can sin, and that it seems rational and logical to sin.
I am also Christian, Brother! I will see you in heaven!
I am Christian too! We meet one day in heaven with God! You cannot lose your salvation! You will not go to hell and will be in heaven with God!
An omniscient God would know that evil exists, an omnibenevolent God would stop evil and an omnipotent God could stop evil in spite of our free will, because he could still give us free will and not the ability to do evil, since he made the laws of logic, he could change them. But evil still exists. And even if you say it's free will, what about environmental disasters and stuff like that, that are not caused by humans? Even if you say that evil exists just so we can know what is good, why does so much evil exist? Even if you say that evil exists because of the devil and all that, that would but his omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence in doubt. And if you say that it's the absence of good, he's still the one who made a possibility of "absenceness".
I agree with you. Probably not for the same reason though. I have just found that the christian beleive makes me the happiest in my every day. Therefore I have choosen to beleive in christianity.
eating from the tree of knowledge and gaining that knowledge was the original sin. I can understand keeping man from the tree of eternal life, but not the tree of knowledge. why was that the sin?
btw, I'm not disagreeing with you, I am just adding to your valid argument.
Couldn't do anything about it*
Who said knowledge was wrong? If he just knew about the fall and could do anything about it there would be nothing wrong. God wasn't only knowledgeable, he crafted the situation that resulted in the fall.
why was knowledge considered wrong?
If God exists why is there evil in the world? If He's good and all-knowing why did he put a lure in the garden of Eden if he knew Eve would fall for it? He knew the world wall fall into suffering and chose to do nothing. He's the all-powerful supervisor so he's therefore vicariously responsible for all the suffering ushered in by the fall.
the crusades ww1 ww2 Donald trump exist north korea exist if your god exist he is a jack ass
I am magic. You can only convert your self.
nothing can convert you, only you can. You are who you are, don't convert yourself.
op. you can't disprove good. however I would ask you to consider the following things. One of God's 10 commandments is though shalt not kill yet, especially in the old testament, we see him kill people over, and over, and over, and over. I'd also like you to consider this, if God created man why are we so inclined to act "sinfully" is it that god created us to be sinful or is it that we created god to justify our own human shortcomings?
also is there another name or abbreviation I may call you? I have to keep looking back to make sure I spell yours right
so you know olhafi I hold no resentment to your faith or lack of one. if you read my "debate" with "the philosopher" you will see that he immediately started belittling everything and basically troll so I treat him as such. as long as you provide a respectful environment I will give one. but I don't do as such with trolls.
start insulting? you are the one that has only done that because you have no argument and you never will. you have lost and everyone but apparently you knows it. are you 3 years old because you seem to have the attention span of one since I have repeatedly told you I was not born into it or questioning my faith. if there is any faith in question it's yours. naming yourself philosopher is laughable. you do not live up to it.
he has said nothing of your faith. he doesn't actually believe it because he is the real.
blue_ray you are a goatf***er who does not deserve to be acknowledged. piggie!
Neveralone, it doesnt matter if you get angru and start insulting (as usual). i get my happiness from the fact that the verses i dropped have caused you to doubt your faith and one day you will see the true light of Islam. you are currently only at that stage which is known as "denial". After that you will move onto "acceptance" and then "conversion".
bro i don't know what aspects of our deen have u debated on with neveralone still i will make my one and only trial to make him consider deepen his research in comparing these two. check this out
so your delesunial. good to know. for the fourth time I didn't grow up in a Christian home. do I need to say it again for you to understand? and for the third time you haven't made me question my beliefs at all. and finnally you haven't made any qoutes. I'm not angry. it's amusing to see you try and failed at actually debating even though you have been told how to.
It became sad long ago, when i presented you with verse after verse, quote after quote, from YOUR scripture which shows that what you believed about Jesus and God was wrong and you responded with some regurgitated nonsense that your sunday school teacher taught you in blatant violation of the scriptural evidences. However, I see time has allowed for my burning words to sink into your skin and bring doubt within your heart. Hence you are responding in emotionally hysterical ways because you can find no other way to express your anger. But that makes me happy because it means that one day you will see the light of Islam.
this is starting to get sad. I am not having a "faith crisis" it's laughable that you think anything you have said would do that. all you have said is your faith is right. that is literally what millions say. if you think that by saying your right actually makes you right then you are quite sad. try actually debating for once.
Who wouldve thought that the Christians would one day become worse than the people Jesus was preaching against? Hmm...how things work out in the end.
Yes, I "failed" at disproving your faith. If only my utter "failure" at trying to disprove your religion didnt result in you having a faith crisis haha.
haha. again with the insults. you have tried (and failed) to put reason and logic in your arguments then I would counter it and you would try and failed (seeing a pattern yet?) to insult me and my faith which you have challenged and failed on as well. either debate or just stop being childish or you will get treated as such.
Youve never countered any of my arguments. If having a sissy fit and throwing pathetic childish insults is your definition of "countering arguments", i can see why youre Christian since thats all Christians are good at. A corrupt person such as yourself will only present further corruption. I dont even bother trying to convince you anymore since simple logic seems to baffle you and overload your brain.
you speak of ignorance yet that's all you speak. I have repeatedly have said that I wasn't Christian from the beginning. then it's hilarious you talk about rationally debating I would love to actually see that from you besides your usual weak insults. and finnally I have countered all your arguments so it is you that has lost. when you want to actually debate like an adult I will treat you as such. till then I will treat you how you act.
If youre Christian and havent reverted to Islam by opening your eyes to the falsehood of your faith, nobody will be able to convert you because ignorance is a blockade separating the person from truth. I learnt that after trying to rationally debate with neveralone and he kept responding with nonsense and repeating the same disproven lies that his sunday school teacher ingrained in him to prevent critical thinking.
what do muslims shout when they try to commit jehad?
Just revert to Islam.