The debate "If america can't fix it's political discourse terrible things are coming" was started by
June 11, 2019, 7:49 am.
22 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 7 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
historybuff posted 4 arguments, Nemiroff posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
historybuff, Nemiroff, Potatochiper, Raquel24, sssk, kuku, ShiroSpeaks, bernie, Damn and 13 visitors agree.
7 visitors disagree.
I'm not certain. In my opinion the only answer that might work is if Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren were it win the Presidency. The right has held back reform for so long and so successfully that people are giving up on the system. They want significant change and they want it now. Trump was an outlet for that. Despite the fact that he is a terrible, terrible president, he is different. He told people he would torch the system and make things better. People listened.
But now we are seeing what happens when you want to torch the system but have no plan for how to make it better. Trump is flailing around accomplishing nothing as things get worse.
Sanders and Warren both have a plan for change. If they can get that message out to people and explain why socialism isn't a dirty word, it is the only way forward, then maybe all that anger and resentment can be let out. If trump wins again, or if you get someone like Biden or Beto (who like things exactly the way they are) then the problem continues to get worse.
The democrats need to learn the lesson of trump. That america needs change right now. If they run the kind of canditate they want (someone super centerist who won't rock the boat) then then america will continue to decline.
And even assuming your country doesn't come apart at the seams, you are rapidly losing your place as a world leader. No one respects Trump's america. Angela Merkel is essentially leader of the free world at the moment. If america doesn't get their shit together soon, you may never recover the position you are losing.
trump certainly wants that but it's unlikely he will succeed. I actually think his actions will drive the other 2/3rds to horror and lead to great improvements.
but as to the disunity leading to collapse, for decades it seems to me that Democrats (in general, not all) have tried to take the middle ground and rule as intended, but Republicans would take the low road and screw the Democrats, and imo the country, like with the supreme court nomination you mentioned.
I do not like the idea of 2 parties completely at each others throats, but at this point I would support Democrats playing the same dirty game as Republicans because the high road has not worked, I do not support unilateral disarmament, and the Republican agenda is more then a simple disagreement, economically at least it is treason. there is no good answer, but I dont feel like going down without a fight. what do you think?
I don't know. We will have to see. I agree with your opinion of the republicans, but I'm not sure I agree that trump is better.
The republicans will slowly degrade your rights and help the rich to get richer while screwing over everyone else. That is definitely bad.
Trump is actively destroying the political norms that have been keeping the country in one piece. This is incredibly dangerous. If you look at the end of the roman republic, this is essentially how it died. 2 parties at each other's throats escalated tensions into political deadlock and destroyed the political norms. Once those norms had been trampled on it was easier and easier to do more extreme things. This led to Sulla marching on Rome and making himself dictator. Sulla made it easier for those who came after him to escalate further until Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus were able to seize power and begin the roman empire.
In the american version of this, I don't think we are too far short of the Sulla marching on Rome moment. Trump wants to be dictator for life. About 30% of the country will never be convinced that he can do anything wrong and might even support him seizing more power illegally. He is already trying to do it, for example by moving money from the military to build a wall (this is very strictly a power of congress). If he is able to get away with things like this then it will only encourage more demagogues to follow in his footsteps, and then democracy dies.
So far trump hasn't done anything definitively worse than the republicans were already doing, but the threat of it going catastrophically wrong is so much higher. I didn't even touch on the fact that a giant man baby has the unrestricted power to nuke other countries. Given that he can't even let an insult on twitter go unanswered. I'd say the risk he nukes someone is cause for concern as well.
as far as national politics go, trump may have actually been the best thing to happen, at least out of the Republican pool. he is pure and ignorant populism. it's definitely not good, but it is far better then the slow and silent degradation of the sovereignty of the people under mainstream Republicans.
there is certainly individual corruption in both parties. but the right seems to have a systematic agenda to try to take power away from the people and concentrate it in a small number of very wealthy... kinda like Russia. it is treason against the people imo. trump isnt even a symptom, he is a side effects of their propaganda, a side effect that is out of their control, and that may be a blessing.
Would anyone who disagrees care to comment on why you disagree?
Trump is just a symptom of a greater problem. The right has retreated into a bubble where facts and reality simply don't matter. "News" outlets like fox can convince people that lies are reality, even though information proving they are lies is very easily obtained. From simple things like trump saying there were big crowds cheering him in london on his trip (there weren't) to big lies like concentrating as much wealth as possible in the hands of the super wealthy will somehow make poor people better off(trickle down economics).
The right has lost all moral integrity. For example they claimed that a president shouldn't name a supreme court justice in an election year (which is complete BS) so they blocked Obama from appointing a supreme court judge. Recently Mitch McConnel was asked what would they do if an SC position opened during trumps last year in office. Without any shame at all he said they'd fill it. And the room laughed. He straight up admitted that he had lied, blocked a president from doing their job, and was a complete hypocrite, and members of his party just laugh like it is funny. In a political party that wasn't completely corrupt, that level of hypocrisy should at least be hidden, if not grounds for punishment. But in the GOP that's a big funny joke. Trampling on the law and political norms is super funny if you can "stick it to the Libs".
This kind of political system is not sustainable. The checks and balances that were put in place are slowly being eroded and watered down. If America can't fix it's political discourse it is going to end very badly. And probably sooner than later. Trump wants to be a dictator. i don't think american society is quite ready to let that happen. But maybe the next right wing demagogue will be able to pick up where trump leaves off and and seize more power, like trump wishes he could. Or maybe I'm wrong and trump will be able to seize power himself. He keeps saying being president for life sounds like a good idea...