The debate "If i were atheist i would probably have killed myself since life is nothing" was started by
February 7, 2020, 9:10 pm.
25 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 135 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
civilizeddiscussion posted 35 arguments to the agreers part.
diecinueve posted 4 arguments, Nemiroff posted 24 arguments, Greetings posted 2 arguments, jrardin12 posted 1 argument, TheExistentialist posted 1 argument, TheAbyss posted 1 argument, Allirix posted 8 arguments to the disagreers part.
civilizeddiscussion, pavan9062, TanishKuvar11 and 22 visitors agree.
diecinueve, Greetings, Anonymous42, jrardin12, Paula, TheExistentialist, matthieuwise, TheAbyss, Huzaifa, michelleb, Allirix, rainbowsocked, StrangeTime, eva_pet35, coree10, Nemiroff, crazy_troglodyte, Ali, rhaegar, tyler0300, eli, Craven198787, Dax, steven_kh, Nero and 110 visitors disagree.
at that point, they are ignoring logic
thats just your logic.
plenty of reports of people killing themselves while praying or holding the bible.
anyone who killed themself they dont believe in their god anymore, thats the logic
one can be overwhelmed by earth problems while still believing in the existence of god (feelings of being forsaken by god do not deny the existence of god). during the middle ages, belief in god was near universal. are you claiming there was no suicide during the middle ages?
It's those that DO think about it that become nihilists, and I've never heard of a suicide being inspired by nihilism. So I doubt it overcomes our survival instincts
commiting suicide itself automaticly excluding them from being religious, since their earthly problem has surpassed their believe in afterlife
for those who dont think about it, ofc their survival instinct would always win. for those who think about it, it doesnt really matter if they live or die.
the religious are not free from misery nor suicide. your focus on atheism is inexplicable.
> "for some people the conditions is just too bad there is no hope, it is better for them end it."
Yes, but this isn't the normal state of being for an atheist so I'd call it an exception, not a norm.
> "i will always be tempted to try death"
I doubt you'd ever actually do it. You know why? Because what you're describing is nihilism, and while it declares life is meaningless, it rarely overcomes our survival instinct.
for some people the conditions is just too bad there is no hope, it is better for them end it.
im still agree on this topic bcs i think for my self if i were atheist and life is just a coincidence, happyness and sadness is just illusion and wont matter when im dead. nothing is really better than anything else. for that case i will always be tempted to try death
And the topic says "If I were an atheist ..." so you have framed it as about yourself.
If you were an atheist and wouldn't kill yourself because of it then you should change your vote to "disagree" to reflect what youre actually saying.
Why do you conclude a yes? Do you think an atheist looks at a period of misery and assumes it will last for the rest of their life? Do you not think atheists have hope?
im not talking about myself, im just discussing general case about atheist motivation to live. the discussion come across to happyness. thats why im asking with a very specific condition, if an atheist is happy with his live, he will just chose to live. but what about atheist who is not happy with his life, is it better if he end his missery? so far i conclude it is a yes
> "some people have a very misserable life, is it better for him to end his missery?"
It really depends on the situation, but in general: no, because there's hope that the misery won't last. Death can make it stop, but there are other ways it can stop too.
This question you ask is only applicable to your original topic if your life is miserable. Are you miserable? Is that why you would kill yourself without a belief in God? If not then your question about ending misery through death isn't even related to your topic.
The only reason I feel safe asking this is I don't believe your life is miserable. I'm just assuming you accidentally premised in your hypothetical that life is miserable without god and that's why you are struggling to understand something as basic as why I'd want to live.
I assume you have it stuck in your head that since an atheist doesn't have god their life is always miserable. I just can't comprehend how else you could be struggling to understand why an atheist would keep themselves alive.
yeah lets say some people have a very misserable life, is it better for him to end his missery?
Maybe, but that's not what life without God is...
nothingness is better than sadness
When he extracted god from his hypothetical he probably removed everything else he valued, like hope and happiness. I'm trying to bring in some of that
he already claimed he would kill himself without god. there was no mention of a depression. the answer was a confident yes.
Try and actually put yourself in an atheist's shoes. That includes a genetic drive to survive. That includes hope that life gets better.
If you were going through a depressing life event would you actually kill yourself if you'd never heard of God?
your answer is that u determine your own life's goals, and u choose to live because life is limitted (something like that). that doesnt answer the question why if someone's life is misserable they shouldnt end their missery? isnt nothingness better than suffering?
if after 65 posts your still on square one, i will be bowing out of trying to explain this to you. all i can say is just reread if you cant understand. this question was answered repeatedly and clearly my at least 4 people.
if some, not me, mentioned it 3 weeks ago what were you replying to?
and i scrolled down to the beginning, that is literally the exact question you posed in your first post (post #3) and repeatedly throughout. many including me have already answered this question. you dont have to agree with someone to understand their perspective, but you making no attempts to at all. just scroll back because it is becoming clear you are just using fallacious tactics to troll people and i have better things to do with my limited time.
lets keep the argument lean. so what should an atheist live for? since not everyone is happy with their life? should unhappy person end their missery?
diecinueve mentioned it 3 weeks ago
1. who mentioned happiness and how long ago? were you even reading my post when you were responding?
2. we explained why several times. im suspecting you dont want to know why, you just want to pose the question as a sort of series of jab to get your point across, but never actually trying to understand or process what we are saying.
3. Pascal's wager is flawed. your running your numbers as if the question is simply no God, or God. instead its no god, or Christian God (along with the muslims, Jewish, and so many different interpretations of each), or hindu gods, shinto gods, every faith or denomination on the face of the earth. you may sacrifice your choices in this life and choose the wrong instructions for the next life, losing on all counts.
you also negate the possibility of a good God who will reward you for living a good life regardless of whether you kiss up to him. you know, a good without human vanity, as a perfect good God should be.
someone oj ur side mention happyness. so what should an atheist motivated to live to?
with that perspective it is not really a risky investment cause even if im wrong, i dont lose nothing and i live my life better this way.
instead it is risky investment for atheist cause if u wrong, u lose it all, if u right u got nothing.
furthermore you only live for happiness as your ultimate goal is to enter eternal paradise. what would even be the difference? if one were to assume eternal paradise, anyone would forfeit their worldly happiness for an eternal salvation. it is the obvious choice for the self interested. however, thats if you are a fan of speculative investing. very risky.
i didn't use the word happiness once in that post? nor did i ever say that... what are you talking about?
you brought up homeless people. i was just trying to figure out why.
so if you live only for happyness, should people who is not happy end their missery?
what do homeless people have to do with your main quest? you said if you didnt believe in God you would kill yourself, you didn't specify if you believed in god and were homeless.
some homeless people do kill themselves, but its not for a lack of god, its for a lack of food, shelter, respect, and security. and despite all of those negative aspects... many continue to choose life.
The homeless people I've met at soup kitchen are some of the most jovial folks I've met. Suffering exists, yes, but it isn't bigger than life
will you really close your eyes to those homeless guy?
Most people have fulfilled lives where I'm from, where are you seeing all this suffering?
unfortunately, life's side quest bring big risk of pain and sadness, not so much fun for a lot of people
Side quests are fun too. Why would someone prefer to die than do side quests?
sorry but i dont really get the Minecraft analogy since i dont really play it
what i mean by side quest is anything that wont affect u after u finished the game. main quest is the journey that u will get the result after u finished it. by that means everything is side quest if u dont believe in afterlife since everything u have done didnt matter no more.
and boy does real life have a wide range of "hardcore modes"
I like the gaming analogy. Minecraft may be a good one to further the analogy.
Atheism believes life is like playing Hardcore Survival Minecraft. The game gives you a soft goal to gather enough resources to survive and eventually kill the Ender dragon (ie buy a house or whatever goals we're given by society). Once you've completed that the rest is up to whatever your heart desires, and when you die everything you've done is gone from your view.
You believe life will be like creative mode after we die in hardcore survival mode. We'll live on forever and be able to do whatever our hearts desire after we die (assuming that's what heaven is to you, some believe it's just worshiping God).
But what is the goal of creative mode? To just realise our heart's desires? Why is it superior to survival mode if that's also the goal of survival mode too? Because it's everlasting and we're freer to realise our hearts desires? But at the end of the day are those hearts desires any more valuable than the ones we have in hardcore survival mode? I don't believe so, No. More importantly, do we actually know if creative mode is accessible after dying in hardcore mode? We have no idea. If it's anything like Minecraft we're pretty screwed unless we can cheat.
lets look at a famous example, elon musk
side quests. be a good dad, husband, son. to see some sights, make some money, have good experiences, climb a mountain (maybe who knows, fill some personal ones in)
main quest. revolutionize energy and save the world. seems likrle quite the compelling main quest all of his own free will.
btw, games like eso that promote freedom use the on the rails main quest as just an introduction. the real main quest is the freedom to make your own story.
what is your god given main quest in comparison?
can you describe your "main quest?"
somewhat u get what i feel. but it still doesnt feel right. chasing happyness in life with believing nothing means shit when u die is like playing rpg by only side quest without any main quest. side quest is fun but u need main quest to keep side quest relevant.
but after all we dont really know what is right, we just tryna guest our best.
I would disagree. I struggle with the concept of God daily. I was raised by a Christian family a little far from loving but good enough. I wonder if he's real or if it's all a fake. My mind following logical routes seems to find he doesn't exist. At least not the Christian God or any form of a god that's man made. Religion is a barrier, like kids get when they're traumatized at a young age. You couldn't deal with the thought of going to sleep one day and that being it, the end of you completely. No heaven or afterlife, just gone. So your mind in distress latched on to the thing that makes it feel better... Religion. You're just cheating your way through life without facing the abyss that stares at you from beyond. You be good and you get to live forever and party you do bad you get to live forever but tortured. The whole thing is you're still alive. Finding meaning in yourself is empowering its lifting and it's something everyone should go through. You have meaning because you choose to do something with your life and give it value, not just because someone says its priceless. The world focuses on money, and power. Things that could be rendered meaningless if the populous revolted against them. Gold, Diamonds, Emeralds, your phone, your car, even your house and theoretically could even be rendered worthless. But your life when you find value and meaning in it absolutely nothing can take it away and you'll carry it until the day you die. Unlike the other alternative where our life is only important because some all powerful creator said it was
i would be glad to agree to disagree. it was clear our explanation wasnt reaching you and your questioning didnt really change. perhaps in the future you may understand our position.
what is your faith? it is clearly not Buddhist as Buddhists don't believe in an afterlife.
i think we agree to disagree here. if you are quoting bible expecting im a crishtian ure wrong.
buddha's philosophy make a lot sense "chasing happyness will always lead to pain and sadness". and im not even buddhist.
im gonna leave this here to think about, back before science proofed that the earth is round, people used to believe it was flat. my point is the truth doesnt care how u understand it or not. even afterall science cant figure what is before big bang.
that sounds cold out of context :x
however, you said without god you would kill yourself. you implied that reality, and the people around you have no inherent meaning. therefore "it is you who has no meaning" was a conclusion based not on my opinion, but on your own.
so unfortunately it is you who has no meaning. if you die god can simply replace you with a snap of a finger. however the people who rely on me here and now will not find a replacement so easily. *my choices* are real.
you claim that what we experience is an illusion just because its temporary. i dont understand the logic.
i go to a concert, the concert is temporary. it ends, i go home. was the concert an illusion? no. what i want the concert to go on forever? no, it will get boring. it is still real.
what i do see as illusion is the absence of choice. to be guided, to be told what to do. that seems fake.
i often use the pet analogy, why may upset people, but why? when the bible clearly defines your shepard, what does that make you? sheep. you become a tool, a hammer, not a person with agency.
so its not the belief in an afterlife that motivates you to not kill yourself, but a very specific afterlife from a very specific god?
also, why do you choose good deeds? i shall assume you are christian, and many christians have argued (and quoted the bible) saying deeds dont get you into heaven, only faith does. do you think that describes a good god? and maybe even if god exists, these stories we pass down are not accurate at all?
the bible is a human book that has been in human hands throughout the most corrupt times of christianity... perhaps gods message would be more personal, perhaps written in our hearts and conscience, and this book is a deception. just a though for those that perfer to be pets.
why would my meaning not matter? my lessons and my achievements are passed to my children, and in small ways to everyone i meet. my end point will determine the start point of my son and set his trajectory.
if im successful i can contribute to our entire civilization, landing into history books with effects through untold ages.
btw, what grand position do you have in gods plan? and why will that purpose be any more real? sure you make it to the afterlife and wallow in eternal boredom as everything you may ever desire gets boring after only the first 10 million years... and you just scratched the surface of eternity?
would you prefer to be a freeman with a personal purpose, or a slave being told what to do? and to what end?
I agree that feelings don't matter when you're dead, just like they didn't matter before I was alive. But, they matter in my life, right now, and my life is everything I have, so what's your point?
Everything that ends isn't valuable? That's not true.
Of course the end is an issue. That's why death is avoided... it doesn't mean I'm going to then delude myself into believing there is no end just because I don't like it.
but happyness and sadness is only a matter of perspective and feeling wont really matter when u die. and u will die
but your soon or later your meaning would not matter. doesnt that bother you?
If there is more sadness and pain in your life than happiness, I understand that you do not want to live. But most people are happier than sad and that is why they want to live. Happiness minus sadness is greater than nothing
you may be nihilistic, but i am not.
the world is real, and just because i am not given a meaning by some sky daddy does not mean i cannot find meaning myself.
you shouldnt declare what others believe, especially if you openly acknowledge not understanding our belief.
i just found out what we discussed here is nothing new in philosophy. my stand point is nihilsm where nothing matters, even if i die now it really doesnt matter. and ur stand point is optimistic nihilsm where nothing matter therefore we can just do things we love wtv it is.
thats good if u see life like that, but for me if death is the finish line i wont bother living since sadness and pain is inevitable
my belief of afterlife make me live to the fullest bcs everything i do will affect me afterlife therefore i will chase to do good deeds and avoid bad deeds.
I'd argue that in fact not having a belief in a God makes life more precious. If you believe that this one life is the only life you get and that you are a finite being then you have to accept you only get one chance to experience everything life has to offer. You will only experience joy so often, only experience laughter so often, sadness, pain, etc... so often; you also only will see your loved ones so often and then never again. That makes every experience, every interaction precious. In a world view that promotes existence in perpetuity, you operate under the assumption that joy will be eternal, that laughter, etc... all will all be eternal. You also operate under the assumption that you will eventually see everyone you've loved again. It just makes those experiences meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Suicide is therefore antithetical to atheist thought since it permanently precludes you from experiencing anything or anyone.
why does a belief in something after life affect your ability to live this life? even if there is no eternity, you have no desire to spend today with the people close to you?
again, i dont see how a lack of afterlife makes this life any less real, or the rest of your comparisons. this is here and now. it is real. no illusion. our choices have consequences and ripple out to affect everyone around us and beyond. that is all very real regardless of what may happen after we die.
but afterall eternity will always win
i have family girlfriend and lifegoals, i have many hobbies that all make me happy. but i can be happy to live this life if only i believe there is something afterlife. otherwise its all just illusion.
it there is no afterlife, nothing ness and life are both equal its just a matter of time.
the question i have is whether a perfectly good god, especially one that promotes humility and denounces the sin of pride, would even want to be worshiped?
Life is only nothing if you compare it to eternity. Life is everything if it's all you get.
but you were born, and you have felt things. do you really have nothing else to live for? no family? no friends? no earthly goal?
and what is so appealing about nothingness? why the rush? why not sell your possessions (or give away) and go see the world, have some adventure, some excitement. this life is full of so much potential, to ignore it is foolish.
im very much baffled by your decision. even if nothing matters, why is nothingness better then something. you say you are a happy guy but i find that hard to believe. is your something that miserable?
i will probably killed myself, before i was born i was not concerned if i want happyness. if i got asked to live with opportunity of happyness and risk of sadness i will be fine with nothingness.
if u really think about its just illusion aint it? die now or later doesnt really matter if there is nothing after life.
the answer is in the first question. if didnt believe in god, would you instantly run and kill yourself?
the fact that the joys mean nothing after my death is irrelevant, do you not see their meaning to you in your life?
and why is that? im questioning that?
chasing joy and fearing pain would all end with the same result, death. it is just illusion aint it? it wont last long. 100 years happy and 1 day sad wont really matter after all.
yes life allow us do many things, but that doesnt answer the question. life is an opportunity to be happy with risk to be sad and feel pain, but afterall we all will 100% die and what we did didnt really matter after all. what we chase is just illusion.
life allows us to do many things, not only do we feel pain and sadness, also joy, pleasure and many more sensations, it also allows us to have goals and be able to accomplish them. Almost all people (including atheists) like those things that life gives us and therefore we don't want to lose it
so if you lost your faith in god you would go kill yourself?
most atheists arent killing themselves, why do you think that is?
Life is not meaningless, regardless of whether you're an atheist or religious. If you've known or seen great suffering, it should hopefully be clear that life is profoundly meaningful. Your actions have a profound and meaningful effect on the people around you, who are deep and complex beings, some of whom probably love you. You can cause great joy or endless sadness. You are capable of both goodness and also of destructive hatred, and you are free to choose either path.
The meaning is here. What I can't tell you is how the meaning got here. It may have been put here by god or a creator or something that came before. Perhaps it just arose through the forces of random chance. Perhaps in a multiverse, it inevitably had to appear somewhere. But it's here now and we're stuck with it, for better and for worse.
I also can't tell you if humanity will ever end all suffering, or what would happen if we did. Joy is only meaningful if it is cast against sadness. Justice is only served against injustice. Love only conquers all when there is hatred for it to conquer. If you completely eradicate the negative, you render the positive meaningless too.
What I do believe is that if there were a God, this is exactly the kind of scenario he would create. One with all of life's challenges, evils and complexities, and all its love, joy and kindness too. Life is valuable precisely because it is finite, uncertain and fragile. If we all knew God and some form of eternal consciousness awaited us, life would be truely pointless.
im asking this question cause im still searching the truth. and i dont see the point of living believing life is no more important than dust
why bother to live if life and death are both meaningless?
I will disagree with this debate because although the atheistic worldview is that there is no purpose in life, atheists will see value in life because they have a God-given desire to value it.
What is your purpose? To serve God? Why does he want you to do that? What is his grand plan? Do you even know?
When you get to heaven and ask God the simple question "Why?", what will his answer be? If you're not sure, how can you be so certain that your life has any more purpose than that of an atheist?
It seems like you're anchoring purpose to this eternal, all-powerful being whose will you cannot explain. I call that a cop-out... :-)
so what is the purpose of ur life?
how can you say you are happy when the only thing keeping you from killing yourself is your faith in god? is that truly how you feel?
if you want to understand the other side:
for atheists, there is no afterlife, this life is all we have. we cherish life.
shouldnt theists be the ones in a rush to meet their god? that is why religions had to ban suicide.
if you are happy, why do you think its all pain and sadness?
i got friends, family, dreams and goals. why would i want to end it? struggle leads to triumph.
i dont see how faith in god has any relevance to the value of life. do you think only pets have purpose?
and what is that something if u think ur life is just a coincidence?
nope, im a happy man just trying to understand the otherside. why bother with pain and sadness if afterall u will just be dust, why not be dust now?
your life must be miserable, i feel sorry for you.
most free men are able to give themselves purpose, to be an empty husk until an external force tells you what to do is sad.
life is something and you don't need to believe in God to know