The debate "Jerusalem was 1st built by Jews &they lived there 1000 of yrs before the birth of Islamic prophet." was started by
December 22, 2017, 3:55 am.
31 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 13 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
biosdaddy posted 3 arguments, blue_rayy posted 16 arguments to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 4 arguments, rodney posted 1 argument, tylathecat posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
biosdaddy, blue_rayy, person, MCFission, alba, Masonearl, nanana, nivasprashanth and 23 visitors agree.
rodney, Knockout, Ana_33, tylathecat, Nemiroff and 8 visitors disagree.
Israel, judea, and Jerusalem were absolutely recognized cities and nations of their time.
what form of history would have made them entitled to the land?
Najam, given the western worlds continued presence on this earth, I think we can both conclude that Islam hasn't been particularly victorious. Nor has Christianity, as well, given that both have put great efforts towards destroying eachother.
It is only you perceiving those arguing with you as genuinely hostile. Most of us area frustrated with you and your bigotry against atheists and homosexuals. Few of us, and certainly not me, wish you actual harm. I hope in the future, you put more effort into seeing those you talk to as human beings and peers, instead of enemies.
as a Christian I find the Santa jokes joke offensive... ... ...
Jerusalem ? Israel
Therefore I don't believe the Jews are entitled to a land in which the built but was not technically officially considered a city or country and decide to come back centuries later and expect it to fall before them
Israel was established for zionist reasons. Where do you get your info from ?
can you rephrase that?
You and I see through contrasting lenses.
I see the U.S and the armaments because it was granted as a birthright, along with those who taught me even it's very history.
More importantly I see and interact with those amongst mankind who are unable to speak any languages outside of sign language.
You don't see yourself in a situation where you are the only one who can read and write, even hear and speak in the presence of 10 hostile individuals who are not granted even one of those rights.
why do you believe that all world events are tied to US politics and maneuvering, and that no other nation or people could ever possibly have independent reasons or desires?
what proof do you have that the United States played a dominant role and that the persistent persecution and slaughter of Jews, and their desire for a home was a secondary?
do you even realize that Israel was originally socialist.
Israel and Jewry are classic.
Legendary and historical pace makers.
Muslims have beat Israel, at least once.
Israel was established for Cold War reasons the nuclear age made it possible for the idea of NORAD who could strike Russian territory with flying boomers. 1948 1978? or so.
You kids are so funny. You must be listening to Santa jokes if you think it's a fair fight.
It's not a matter of weaponry or money that gives Muslims the victories.
Allah as the one and only god was not revealed initially to those who are the Yahoodi.
They are those who hoard information and some even believe that the right to be of the special superior people favored by the Almighty God is a birthright.
Christianity and Islam both disprove the fact that only one born a Jew can please the one and only.
Now there's always some fool who wants to win the whose better at killing people aspect.
If mankind can see past that foolishness, then Israeli troops won't be allowed to play with their killer toys amongst the population.
historybuff, The Syrians and the Egyptians recieved bulk of military aid from the communist super power of USSR.
So yep, The fight was fair. Israel's military aid is justified for what nemiroff had already mentioned.
that wasn't the question. do you think it would be fair?
their enemies aren't being given 10s of billions in military aid.
are you claiming the fight would be fair if there was no aid? with numerous giant nations + terrorist organizations vs 1 nation the size of new jersey?
I'm not arguing that Israel doesn't have very skilled and dedicated soldiers. they certainly do.
but their military receives huge amounts of funding and equipment from the US and Europe. between 1948 and 1969 France provided them with virtually every piece if military equipment. the US has been sending them billions in military assistance since at least 1976.
when super powers are footing the bill for the weapons on one side, it's not exactly a fair fight.
Israel won because of:
Surprise attacks: By launching a preemptive attack Israel took the Arab countries by surprise which allowed taking out their air forces on the ground. Even the most powerful air force isn't worth anything if it doesn't leave the ground. This certainly helped even though Israel managed to win other wars without having any such advantage.
Motivation of soldiers and people: The IDF (Israel Defense Forces) was highly motivated - a failure would inevitably mean that Israel would cease to exist. Arab countries on the other hand had to take measures to keep their soldiers from defecting (Syrian forces even had to chain their soldiers to machine guns)
Skill: The Israeli soldiers were highly skilled, with one of the reasons being the overall high education level in the population. This was probably the main disadvantage of the Arab armies - while they got all the advanced weapons from the Soviets, their soldiers were unable to use them effectively.
Organization: The Arab countries didn't coordinate their actions, each of their armies was acting on their own. In fact, Egypt even failed to coordinate its own troops.
I never said they weren't propping them up currently (like your 2016 example) I said Israel would win regardless. objectively. that's current funding, we are talking about wars over 50 years ago. all that funding is why Israel now dominates and has near 0 casualties.
I'm not sure how much funding Israel got during the 6 day war, but I know how much Israel got during its independence war from the US... $0.00.
And it still won... And that was it at its weakest.
misunderstanding :( i asked to cite sources that claims US support to Israel during the 90's wars.
The deal you mentioned was of the 21st century.
the US gives Israel 3 billion every year in aid. both military are otherwise. that's about 1/5th of all us aid funding going to one tiny country. the story linked below is a deal from 2016 for 38 billion in military aid over 10 years. do you still want to make the argument that America isn't propping them up?
All those you claim to be superior belligerents will be the same ones running for cover once he returns to the rally point.
Representing and waiting on Jesus is for the people of faith and prayer.
The enemy would put him back on a cross as they claim to already have done, if they could.
It's a curse lasting through the generations.
can you cite the sources that claim US monetary or military help to the state of Israel?
I'm not sure if that's valid. the us certainly aids Israel in its super advantage of not losing many Israeli lives at all, but Israel won it's independence without any help. the only thing the US did for them was acknowledge their statehood. not a penny of support. Israel won those crucial early wars all on its own, with no one propping them up.
I'm not sure you understood my point. I'm saying that does sound stupid. Americans certainly have a claim the America, despite the fact that they have only been there for a few hundred years, and that they displaced the natives.
the Muslims have been there for far longer than 400 years. and they would own Jerusalem right now if the US wasn't propping Israel up.
saying that it belongs to them because they won wars, is only an effective argument when there isn't a super power tipping the scales in their favor.
Jerusalem ( East) was a territorial price that muslims had to pay for the 1968 six-day war.
If thats the case, Natives lived in America for even more than '1000's' of years. And americans a.k.a. europeans started settling about 400 years back. So by your comment, whites and blacks dont have any right over america as it was inhabited by natives for 1000+ years.
See? How stupid it sounds......:)
Allah is one. He is an odd number outside of the comedians your kind is used to. He is only one and never many. He even loves any odd number.
considering allah is simply the Arabic word for God, yes any Arabic speaking Jew praised allah. and an Arabic speaking hindu praises many allahs.
What about Jesus's factor in the integer?
If the Jews were not bogus to begin with, he wouldn't have debated with them.
The Muslims didn't appear with the Quran, until after people stopped accepting the intercession of Jesus.
Those Jews only won the 6 days war because Allah is the most merciful.
So if you believe that taking someone's else land by force and butchering people is acceptable then you shouldn't have any problem with Jews. They are doing the same but infact at least they aren't violent and just defending themselves against Jihadis.
no one is arguing that Jerusalem is important to the Jews. so the number of times they talk about it is irrelevant.
but they took the city by force. they then lost it control of it for 2,000 years. the Muslims took it by force and held it for over 1,000 years. why do the Jews have the better claim?
If they refuse to believe Jesus, there's going to be a fight when he gets back.
i copied the references from certain sources.
Jerusalem was a Jewish spirtual centre since 10 BCE.
Jewish religious writings contain thousands of references to Jerusalem, some of which are included in the following:
1)If one is praying in the Land of Israel, he should direct his heart towards Jerusalem; If he is standing in Jerusalem, he should face towards the Holy Temple ?Brachot 27a
2)Why are the fruits of Ginosar not found in Jerusalem? So that the pilgrims should not say "were it only incumbent on us to eat the fruits of Ginosar in Jerusalem, it would be enough" ?Pesachim 8b
3)In the future the Holy One will expand Jerusalem to the extent that a horse will flee and its owner will be able to recover it [while still being within the city?s limits] ? Pesachim 50a
4)Jerusalem was not divided among the tribes ? Yoma12a
5)A snake or scorpion never injured anyone in Jerusalem ? Yoma 21a
6)Whoever did not see Jerusalem in her glory has never seen a beautiful city ? Sukkah 51b
7)Ten measures of beauty descended to the world, Jerusalem took nine ?Kidushin 49b
8)Jerusalem is the light of the world ? Bereshit Rabbah59
9)Jerusalem will not be rebuilt until the ingathering of the exiles has occurred ?Tanchuma Noach 11
10)The Land of Israel sits at the centre of the world and Jerusalem sits at the centre of the Land of Israel ?Tanchuma Kedoshim 10
11)Why did the omnipresent not create warm springs in Jerusalem, like those of Tiberias? So a person should not say ?Let us ascend to Jerusalem in order to bathe? ? SifreBehaalotecha 89
12)There is no beauty like that of Jerusalem ? Avot of Rabbi Natan 28
13)Ten miracles occurred for our forefathers in Jerusalem ? Avot of Rabbi Natan 35
14)?From all your tribes? ? This refers to Jerusalem because all Israel are partners in her ? Avot of Rabbi Natan 35
15)In the future all the nations and kingdoms will be gathered unto Jerusalem ?Avot of Rabbi Natan 35
16)All who pray in Jerusalem - it is as if he prayed before the throne of glory, because the gate of heaven is situated there ? Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer 35
17)In the merit of Jerusalem Isplit the sea for them ?Yalkut ShimoniIsaiah 473
18)In the future the suburbs of Jerusalem will be filled with precious stones and jewels and all of Israel will come and take them ? Yalkut Shimoni Isaiah 478
19)From the day Jerusalem was destroyed, God has no joy, until He rebuilds Jerusalem and returns Israel to it ? Yalkut ShimoniLamentations 1009
The Jews don't belong in Jerusalem, but they are tolerated. Christians have more right to wait in Jerusalem alongside Muslims for Jesus to return from heaven. How do you say Jews have any right at all to the land of Jesus when they still don't believe him, at all?
the relocation of the Muslims from Israel is wrong, but so is denying peaceful families from moving in. especially considering Israel is still, and was even more so, almost entirely empty land. the Palestinian residents certainly own their homes and towns, but the overall area that is now a nation was never under their sovereignty. at least not for the last 500 years, and likely before that as well.
do they have a right to demand their homes back? yes. do they have a right to demand it be a nation for only them? no. they rejected any talks, they rejected the original partition plan, all while the Jews welcomed any agreements of peace, and no one knows if they would have demanded a Jewish only state in the talks that never happened. based on their acceptance of nearly every deal, I doubt they would have been so stubborn. but all we know for certain now is that Palestinians didn't even want to talk. they wanted to fight, and they lost. I think that if the aggressor loses, war does = land rights. although not the other way around.
Doesnt matter. Apart from historical claims including Bible, Jews inhabited Jerusalem too. And now they have established complete control of East Jerusalem militarily. So that area belongs to them now.
If they were so wrong, why would you think the US or the UK or NATO as a whole would support their actions throughout the 1968 & 1972 war?
The question is, why were they so sympathetic towards Israeli actions?
like any logical human being, I reserve the right the right to change my mind if presented with new information. but we are discussing Jerusalem, not Israel. the are separate issues.
if you step back and think about it, muslims owned Jerusalem for over 1,000 years. it's only the last few decades where it was taken from them and handed to people who lived there a very long time ago. they have very good reason to want it back.
if we applied that logic in most other places in the world it would be really messed up. we would have to give Spain back to the Moors. give the US to native Americans. give turkey to the Greeks. give Japan to the Ainu. give like 90% of Russia to the various peoples they conquered.
as far as I remember, you were one of the most pro-Israeli guys on this app . Why is that you changed your side like some kind of a coin tossing?
if you agree with the fact that Turks deserve Turkey despite greeks having ruled it, Then whats the problem with Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem? and espacially when Jerusalem was ruled by jewish people too.
Damn it. The muslims were the once to shed bloodshed with Israel. Remember the sixty-dar war of 1968? remember the Yom-Kippur war of 1971?
Israel was in constant threat of attacks and invasion from her muslim neighbours. She was threatened and wars were fought resulting in Israeli victory.
The sixty day war was induced by Egypt on Israel by Egyptian blockade of Israeli ships. Israel retaliated by air raids which reduced Egyptian airforce to dust.
Then Egyptian PM, Nasser induced Syria and Jordan to begin attacks on Israel by using the initially confused situation to claim that Egypt had defeated the Israeli air strike. Israeli counterattacks resulted in the seizure of East Jerusalem as well as theWest Bank from the Jordanians, while Israel's retaliation against Syria resulted in its occupation of the Golan Heights.
Thus it was indeed the violent-unsocial-inhumane-barbaric islamic countries fault to start a war a.k.a. bloodshed with Israel. These countries had to pay territorial prices which included Jerusalem( East).
Jerusalem never belonged to the Jews either until they took it by force.
the Muslims owned Jerusalem for well over 1,000 years. at what point does a group lose their claim.
should we insist that Istanbul be given back to the Greeks? that was taken by conquest too.
And why should Muslims officially defeat the Jews again and write a new Holy book?
We are Islam and don't need to keep reminding folks of who's boss.
No Muslim is happy with shedding the bloodshed of any amongst mankind, and them writing about it in a Holy book.
Jerusalem never belonged to islamic people. It belonged to the jews and continues to be as the capital of modern day Israel.
There's no mentioning of the holy city in Quran while the there's been many things written on the bible about Jerusalem.
Today's Al-asqa mosque stands on the place which used to be the area of Temple mount.
There's no reason for muslims to argue with jews about Jerusalem. Jerusalem rightfully belongs to the jews.
Israel invaded Jerusalem in 1948 cause it was rightfully theirs.
So Hamas or Palestine terrorists please lower your firearms and Get the f uck out.
because people don't read. they just vote without seeing the debate based on gut feeling or unchallenged beliefs.
I don't see how anyone could agree with this topic. it is patently untrue. they did not build it, they conquered it. the exact same way the Muslims did.
The whole middle east is a mess
You know little about war time and pantomime.
If the Jewish existence was such a problem for Muslims, they wouldn't even be allowed in Jerusalem.
the Jews kicked the crap out of 5 Muslim countries in 6 days all by themselves.
Those were farce defeats. You know very well that the Jews are the ones being protected. As a little brother allowed to win the 6 days war. In a serious fight, the Jews would easily be decimated.
if we were going to go by everything the POTUS says, then all Mexicans would be rapists and global warming would be a Chinese conspiracy theory.
why tf do we have to even debate? The POTUS has officially declared Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
if winning a war = land rights, the Jews soundly beat the Muslims in both the independence war and the 6 day war so by your logic, that land belongs to jews now, and they are once again the best....
The Jews lost to the Muslim ummah. That land belongs to Islam now. All you have to do is read the Quran and you will see that they are no longer the best.
and the hagia Sophia was built by greek Christians. you don't see the Greeks asking for Istanbul back.
the first Temple was, the second was by Romans or Persians, or macedonians (1 of those).
... but I though we were talking about the city... not a temple.
Are you saying that Jerusalem temple wasn't built by Jews?
Are you saying that Jerusalem temple wasn't built by Jews?
the Jews conquered the city at the end of the bronze age, approximately 1,000 BCE. it was certainly not 1st built by them.
in the periods after this the city was owned by several empires, the Jewish kingdom of Judah, the Babylonians, the persians, the Greeks and the Romans. it was then owned for almost 1,500 years by various Muslim kingdoms.
the city was owned by a Jewish nation for about 400 years.
Jews inhabited Jerusalem for millennia before the birth of Muhammad, that is true, but I have never heard the Jewish story of the building of jerusalem....
either way, are you trying to say that because jews lived in jerusalem millennia ago, the people who have lived there for centuries, whose fathers, grandfathers and their grand fathers were born there, have no claim to their lot?