The debate "KKK vs BLM which is more legitimate" was started by
November 28, 2016, 10:27 pm.
3 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 5 people are on the disagree side.
There needs to be more votes to see what the common perception is.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
PoliticsAsUsual posted 16 arguments, Yanksxx21 posted 4 arguments to the disagreers part.
NationalistGuy and 2 visitors agree.
PoliticsAsUsual, Yanksxx21 and 3 visitors disagree.
I disagree that we will be going in circles, in fact I believe we reached the root of our disagreement and that it would be a mistake to disengage now.
the 2 points you made that I would like to explore is the number of outliers and the message of the BLM.
As you yourself pointed out, the BLM website speaks of reforming law enforcement. reform is not violence, they seek to improve relations between communities and their police, and has been shown to respond positively to police outreach efforts as opposed to police hard line stances.
as to the outliers, we have no idea how many bad apples there are in police departments. police, who have their reasons, do not disclose which officers received how many complaints, what those complaints were, and disciplinary actions if any. the only time we spot a police outlier is when someone dies, so if police had thousands of outliers, that would mean thousands have died at their hands unjustly and at that point it is no longer outliers, it is the police as a whole, with a few good outliers.
the 1000s of BLM outliers, which I'm not sure where you got that number from, comes from millions upon millions of peaceful protesters. far greater than the number of police. and really, the idiots with the attack police signs wouldn't even add up to 100, yet if you watch actual footage from the protests their slogans have nothing about attacking police but often defensive ones like "hands up don't shoot" or "I can't breathe".
as a whole I completely support the police and although I feel they should be more accountable and responsible for their actions, I also feel they should be better rewarded with decent pay that makes those responsibilities justified.
Now I will repeat this one more time to end my argument, our Police force does have its outliers, however it doesn't foster thousands of outliers each month and weeks to verbally and physically attack and advocate violence to one group of people, and I just find it unsettling that we don't give those that defend us credit , my father's an officer and he's saved lives of every color and to even me has said that what he does it awarded no thanks. He's not a bigot of a racist that uses violent communities, he protects us as does every police officer
Thank you, however I feel we have escalated the debate to the point where we would no longer bring anything new into it and would just repeat ourselves so I think we've reached climax
and thank you for the acknowledgement.
To you as well, the fact that you come over to look at what it is the other side is actually saying in their Own words is already more than far too many Americans care to do.
"hands up don't shoot"
"I can't breathe"
"no justice, no peace"
some others there.
I have no idea where your getting your chants, I'm guessing some idiot said it and apparently now speaks for the entire movement.
"yet the website and the leaders are very strong and firm on their belief that the police presence in the US needs reform and that they target Blacks."
and I completely agree with them. reform is good, no one is getting punished or victimized in reform. only improved.
and fuergeson showed that they do target black communities with ticket blitzes and higher incarceration rates for usual l identical crimes everywhere.
"But what I really don't understand is how they single themselves out from other people and races, and declare themselves to be more important than other lives."
more important? where?
if I'm being shot by authorities and have to declare that my life matters how am I in anyway declaring any form of superiority?
this is honestly one of the more insulting arguments against BLM and I totally agree with not caving on the all lives matter nonsense.
"No whites caused the single black motherhood rate to jump to 70% , No Whites advocated for Blacks to go out and commit 50% of the crime, no Whites forced them to to kill each other and raise 99% of black violence is against other blacks, and no Whites asked them to cause riots in the thousands that ended up resulting in damages of property and the assault of innocents and Cops."
actually the single motherhood was caused by the mandatory minimum mass incarceration of the cracks years, while the current generation is just acting like fools cause most of their fathers were locked away by the nation. whereas the white victims of heroin are poor victims. also the rioters and assaulters can also blame the (often white) cop who shot them for their reaction.
the crime rate is something they have to deal with, but I don't see how that justifies figures of authority and justice gunning down unjustily. that is a seperate, scarier issues that is really important. have your people never been persecuted by authority figures? it's not like criminals. you are completely powerless.
"however these chants and messages that they chant are disturbing such as " Fuck the Cops" or " Fire at Cops", when you have leaders organizing these protests and are fine with these as it relates to its message"
now I know you didn't get these chants from their website. when did any of their leaders ever say anything like that? this is what I mean when 1 retard somewhere says that with his friends, and then some medias play it on repeat. if you ever watch their protests the most Common slogans are "hands up, don't shoot"
Now our Police force does have its outliers, however it doesn't foster thousands of them each year or even weeks to verbally and physically attack our Police as a whole.
I greatly respect you for acknowledging that it's not okay to demonize all of our Police force, I do have the respect to you as a fairly strong debater to take a look at the BLM official website and the leaders of BLM to digest your claim that only outliers believe this , yet the website and the leaders are very strong and firm on their belief that the police presence in the US needs reform and that they target Blacks. Now this among itself I disagree with and that they don't target blacks, But what I really don't understand is how they single themselves out from other people and races, and declare themselves to be more important than other lives. Nearly every argument for BLM has an equitable and justified counter argument with facts and statistics, and the overwhelming majority of the issues that BLM advocates for is the result of what I call " Self Oppression" , and is caused by themselves as in case in point. No whites caused the single black motherhood rate to jump to 70% , No Whites advocated for Blacks to go out and commit 50% of the crime, no Whites forced them to to kill each other and raise 99% of black violence is against other blacks, and no Whites asked them to cause riots in the thousands that ended up resulting in damages of property and the assault of innocents and Cops. Now these peaceful riots as we call them don't always escalate into violence , however these chants and messages that they chant are disturbing such as " Fuck the Cops" or " Fire at Cops", when you have leaders organizing these protests and are fine with these as it relates to its message, that justifies that BLM is not consisted of Outliers that Right wing media blows up.
"however you all seem to think it's okay to single out individual cases that occur on a rare basis and uniformly present that all police officers are terrible and racist and focus just in killing unarmed and people that don't pose a threat, when actually in the real world they are NOT."
I absolutely don't think that is ok. Noone is saying all cops are bad. what we, and most of BLM say is that those outliers ARE just outliers, but are also protected by the system as a whole and face no justice. most of the protests happen directly after it is announced that the officer will not even face a trial or when the department takes over a year to release the video of what actually happens and leaves the family and community guessing.
I understand that you and rogue American believe that blm just wants to demonize police, and some individuals, or as you say "outliers," do express that sentiment and have done so well before the BLM movement, the majority say no such thing. Unfortunately most right wing media just blast the handful of antipolice examples on repeat and that is all some people, like you, see.
Police do what they do to protect you, if this is how you feel than don't call 911 of you ever need help, as obviously you don't give a shot what they do for yoi
I never remotly said that its okay for police officers to kill unarmed men that present no threat, however you all seem to think it's okay to single out individual cases that occur on a rare basis and uniformly present that all police officers are terrible and racist and focus just in killing unarmed and people that don't pose a threat, when actually in the real world they are NOT.
There is outliners in every group, and it's not okay to make complete generalisations with few cases, and a majority of these "unarmed" cases posed a threat and had melee weapons in them.
so just because an area has a crime rate means that officers can shoot someone who poses no threat to them?
I'm sure we can agree that if someone is running away from an officer he clearly poses no imminent threat to that officer correct?
therefore, no civilian should ever be shot in the back by an officer (unless they are facing and attacking another officer)
a gun is meant only in defense, not to aid in apprehension of a fleeing suspect. you may want that to change, but until then, killing someone for running away is wrong and should be prosecuted.
So you see no issue with unarmed black kids being shot? A black woman dying in police custody for failure to signal while driving seems acceptable because she might come from an area with higher than average crime rates?
I'm trying to understand why you feel people exercising their right to free speech after they lose kids and friends to police killings is illegitimate.
They get paid to keep the peace, deal with it
Ok well you lack the knowledge that these areas that they live in have completely different and have far larger crime rates than white neighbourhoods, and it's not unfair as they are supposed to stop crime and are there to help and assist them whenever there is any murders and elc, if they were racist then they wouldn't accept that calls when they call 911.
these are systemic actions of the only police department that happened to get investigated. 1 for 1 so far, maybe if the public backed them up and supported an investigation in this unfair treatment, they wouldn't need to protest... because the system would be working.
past and frequent offenders of those same drug charges. and we can get back to that unfairly increased enforcement in their areas... they frequent offence background is also by design, intentional or not.
so blm doesn't make color issues?
what I'm saying is liberals have their own causes that are important to them, just like some republican causes are more important to you then others.
and I was saying liberals make gender and color issues not blm
And if we look at statistics it shows that on average blacks that are held longer for the same drug charges are past and frequent offenders
These are isolated incidents to which you dont understand and so this dosent qualify as a systematic and institutionalized oppression of a race. You act like this only occurs to blacks and pick out incidents that only occur to them.
it's mostly about poverty. the gender issue isn't a big deal anymore. and "you liberals" don't do that. the people fighting for gender equality are not part of BLM. BLM is not fighting pipelines. these are all separate causes being fought for by separate people. something a simpleton like you apparently can't process.
there are no blatantly racist laws in this country, but there are racist policies. like the fuerguson police that specifically targeted poor black neighborhoods for ticketing to fill in budget gaps, while circulating emails making blatantly racist jokes. or the zero tolerance campaign that put a generation of black man behind bars for the same crime suburban white kids are no being called victims over (drugs)
how about how we make people sit in jail, sometimes solitary for months only to have their conviction thrown out (they didn't even have a trial yet) do you think their jobs were still waiting for them? how do you expect people to live like this and not protest?
and politicsasusual wont understand it.
The KKK and BLM are as bad as eachother and at least we don't support one
So what if the KKK is on the same side side of the spectrum, if we accepted them and their beliefs they would be in politics yet, they are not even close as they don't stand for our values. If anything we are better off than the left as we haven't accepted a radicalized alt-left group that justifies violence a for meaninglessness reasons.
If you believe that BLM is fighting racism of blacks , explain to me how these statistics are racist and white people's fault
why arent you understanding? yanks and me arent speaking about the pros of KKK. we just wanted to say BLM is same as KKK. Both are hate groups. Both divide the society on basis of skin colour.
he has a low knowledge about the right wing politics. For him, Right = KKK , Racism , Neonazis,etc
because the kkk is known to vote Republican and endorses Republican candidates and one of their members (David duke) has ran as and held office as a republican.
they are a part of the Republican party. that relationship is not my opinion, that is a plain fact.
Politics answer, are these statistics caused by racism.
Hes done this multiple God damn times and its pissing me off to relate me in any way to a group that targets a group in their color
politicsasusual, your politics is really screwed up. Why did you relate republicans and the right with KKK?
You liberals fault everything in gender and color...when in actuality it has nothing to do with those.
Unarmed men are not getting f***ing killed in mass numbers, there's been unarmed black men killed and there has been unarmed white men killed in small numbers every year, it would take police officers 40 years to kill as many blacks as blacks do. Your so quick to ask questions riddle me these..Why is 13% of the population responsible for 50% of the crime and these are not innocent crimes for walking down the street, why is 99% of crimes against blacks black on black? You think that white people went out to make sure they go out and kill people, Nope. Give me a law that is racist intent and I will support you, however I'm not going to search for ghosts.
just send your membership fee to my address and you'll get a pin between 2 weeks and never.
the right gets up in arms over the Fed taking land for conservation purposes but when they target black communities to raise funds off the backs of the poor your OK with that?
if so, then you are racist. not because your Republican (I know many who arent) but because you as an individual have double standards and don't give 2 shits about the plight of those who don't share a skin color with you.
so your going to ignore the fact that unarmed people are being killed unjustifiably and that specific communities are being explicitly targeted to raise funds?
is that justice?
man iam impressed by BLM's strategy and motive. Who do i join? ( sarcasm)
and no he's not a successful president, however this entire idea of institutionalized racism is simply an excuse for if or whenever anyone of color fails and it's a joke
Woah how do I join BLM
every member of BLM denounces violence, and the vast majority of protests have been peaceful.
what your saying is nonsense.
unarmed black people are being killed by police far too often. that's not right for anyone of any color, but it happens to always be black people.
several municipalities have been found to even target poor black neighborhoods with increased enforcement of non violent crimes like ticket blitz which no one in those neighborhoods can afford in order to close budget gaps. that's really wrong. a black president does not have control of everything and did not represent everyone. how many people declared that he is not their president?
so because there are examples of successful black people that means that there can't be a problem?
BLM is trying to fight back against systematic racism. the KKK is causing systematic racism. the two aren't even comparable.
You have a black president
and no BLM is a bullshit group that has molded into a terrorist group, and their is no institutionalized racism
Both are terrible as eachother, each targets groups of people and incites violence
one is about empowering and protecting lives, the other is about terrorizing and taking lives.... this comparison is stupid.
BLM has legitimate reasons to protest. Black people are more likely to be stopped by police, arrested, and killed by police. There are many instances of police beating and/or killing them for little to no cause. On black activist died while in police custody after being pulled over for failing to signal when turning. I certainly don't agree with the riots that have happened, but I can at least see merit to the anger they feel.
KKK is a racist organization that claims to speak for Christianity. They are rejected by most white people. They are rejected by most Christians. They feel that white America is being taken over. They aren't really wrong since the tipping point is nearing when white people will stop being the majority, but that's not really something that can be " fixed". I haven't seen much to justify their position since even those they claim to speak for disagree with their blatant racism.
idk on BLM. don't know enough about them but that there stirring up something that could just die off. on kkk I have never heard somone defend them so idk on them too. but would say burning black people on crosses is wrong
i mean which out of these two are able justify their cause of their movement
by what do u mean by legitimate?