The debate "Modern Feminism isn't Feminism" was started by
an anonymous person on
October 20, 2016, 8:45 pm.
50 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 16 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
Yanksxx21 posted 38 arguments, neveralone posted 29 arguments, Nemiroff posted 18 arguments, DebateKing1000 posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
Nemiroff posted 18 arguments, neveralone posted 2 arguments, Yanksxx21 posted 2 arguments, Parallax posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
dalton7532, Bodaciouslady16, jack_tim_45, neveralone, nick, Tobibroek, Blue_ray, CrazePhil, Marvelgirl2002, Thejw, DebateKing1000, Matthew_Daniel, thereal, allyssa, Adrian, Ematio, locke and 33 visitors agree.
dung1998, Nemiroff, TheExistentialist, Parallax, ruba and 11 visitors disagree.
I'm a older 2nd wave feminist that believes in equal rights, and I'm happy as this has been acomplished in the US
Modern Feminism Parralax is more so using men as an answer for any issue that they face, weather or not this be the supposive wage gap or this make believe Patriarchy
so who is going to the army? children? those people apply because they believe in something bigger than themselves. I salute them
Nor girls nor boys should apply to the army...
so... what's modern feminism then? demanding the same rights and options for both genders?
obviously everyone agreed. the statement was vague. I agreed cause feminism is not what you describe as "modern feminism". even tho that is the exact opposite of what you meant by that, it still agrees with your vague statement.
Closing this argument as overwhelmingly I won and most agreed
You get it great
Agree! Feminists in the past tried to get 100% equal rights. In the present they are only trying to gain the good benifits and not trying to make life equally gender but to have a better life then man! If you want equal rights why dont you girls apply to the army when turning 18? Why can you hit man without getting punished? That is not equal rights, that is a better life to women.
it depends on whose the majority but we already talked about this and agreed so someone else will have to argue this because again we are in agreement
Idk what that means.
it means don't generalize. what women do is what those women do.
what feminism is about is what feminist organizations says it is about and the specific actions mainstream organizations take. feminism doesn't reflect the ideas or demands of random women seeking personal interests. they are fighting for equality, not so someone can bitch her way out of stealing while using their name.
idk. I forgot my line of reasoning sorry for wasting the time. maybe that we can say what we want but we all need to look at what the facts say?
but how are you relating that to feminism?
i have the right to say it's silly.:-)
guys have a right to do that. girls have a right to complain about it.
I didn't say u do that. I mean guys having a quiet conversation that I don't thinks right but still happens and girls do the same thing but get mad that guys do it.
there's a difference between liking a pretty girl and walking around thumbing women up and down.
though when any relationship starts it starts on looks and goes from there. that is what science says at least though what about those friend relationships that turn into something more?
Generally anyone gets angry at being rated based on looks.
I got a question. why is it girls get mad at guys for rating them (I don't but others do) when they do the same thing?
that's what I was saying. but they also did occupational breakdowns as well which are much more useful.
The 78c isnt job by job and accounting dor different, flexible hours. That is the general median.
Because. Proof of what is fair is fruitless. Im saying discrimination is not holding women back.
Trump is getting voted on by the entire electorate...
if we go deeper we will be leaving out voters.... what are you getting at.
and your wrong about that stat. the 78c to the dollar was broken down further to not include all working women but compare it industry by industry, job by job.
they compared women in finance to men in finance. women ceos to male ceos, often even specifying field as well, such as tech ceos. we are talking about individual's salary here, we should get as fine a detail as possible.
with the campaign we want to get as large as sample as possible. what we would want to leave out is international, non US citizen opinions as they don't matter, but how do you suggest we go deeper into this poll?
I'm sorry you feel I'm being hypocritical but it seems your incapable of assessing the different situations and when you want to get finer detail and when you want to see the bigger picture. both are useful in different situations.
Of course however that is for different reasons.
No it's a fact that full time EMPLOYED women make 78 cents for every dollar a man makes. So how is this including stay at home mom's?
Your a Hypocrite, you'll jump on the wagon of the polls showing a trump loss as it's a general average without going deeper, yet condemn general data and do attempt to go deeper.
wtf are you talking about. I'm not disputing his facts, I'm saying they are too general and we can get more specific, more relevant facts. such as comparing men and women who work the same instead of averaging in stay at home moms in a discussion about full time wages...
did you actually read what was written or just jump on the partisan band wagon?
You are against claims without facts, yet condemn those that give you facts, that are not up to par with your stupid ideaology. Logic*
just cause you need an average doesn't mean you have to take the broadest, peas specific average. you can separate it into employed women, you can celebrate by industry. you can compare women ceo pay to make ceo pay without needing to toss in every worker in the nation.
how is such a stupidly general average fair for those INDIVIDUAL women who work as hard, as long, and as effective as their male counterparts?
*** how is it that in the immigration debate you are for wasting a ton of money and sacrificing our national humanity for the sake of "doing what's fair for legal migrants," but doing slightly more complicate math to treat hard working citizen when fairly is too much to ask according to you?
How else can you do it. One woman makes less than man? You need the averages.
can you show me the numbers you are talking about?
I'm not comparing women with a degree to men without. I'm comparing women with the same degree and the same job as their counterpart.
Okay if we want to judge them based of off their performance, women in in cities tend to actually make more than their make counterparts. Women that that actually studied and majored in business and not women studies, don't complain of the wage gap as they have the mental capacity to understands it's a myth, and they understand as they are living proof.
negotiations are only part of it. once you get your first job, the line on every resume that asks for "previous salary" ensures a bad salary will follow them for life even if they change negotiation tactics.
also negotiation tactics is also something that is a crowd average. there is no rule that all women cannot negotiate. you keep judging them based on generalities about 50% of the human species, instead of judging salaries based on individual competence and performance.
As i said before, the negotiations part is critical. I know women making 10k less than their male counterparts because they didnt negotiate a starting salary. Women toe to toe with men arent paid less.
just cause women in general are more likely spend more time with kids, doesn't mean the individual woman who chooses not too and does work the same hours and travels like men should be paid less then anyone else.
your salary should be determined by ones merits and productivity correct? not affected by what genetic groups you belong to.
I mean the types of hours. Women not negotiating is a large portion. But you must account for the average woman. The types of hours differ. Since women are more likely to be with their kids, they dont take the same ridiculous hours as men. Such as being sent to x location and having your eage increased to compensate. Some hours and times and circumstances are worth more than others.
here's the thing. on the wage gap, I'm in the middle. I agree there are factors aside from sexism that affect it. wage negotiations are a proven difference, however the hours myth is Bullshit.
some women stay home or work part time jobs, they change the overall average. HOWEVER, women who decided to put work first work the same as men. the wage gap studies adjusted for this, and in a measure of women in identical jobs with identical hours and identical work history, they still make less.
the only factor they didn't account for is the wage negotiation differences.
women also have different personalities than men when it comes to negotiations of wages.
Identical hours. So an engineer on call making time amd a half shouldnt be rewarded for inflexible hours. Same with a surgeon. A large portion of the issue is women dont work the same types of hours as men.
They cant work. Why would you hire them of theyre pregnant.
that's the issue, in IDENTICAL fields, in IDENTICAL jobs, working IDENTICAL hours, they DON'T make the same.
and as a society, we really should stop holding pregnancy against them. it's absolutely essential and not exactly a vacation.
And that is why in similar fields, women and men tend to make the same. The issue comes along that women statistically work less, are less likely to travel for a job, take different jobs, take time off work for maternity needs, etc.
but they do, in increasing numbers.
And the most dominant feature: women dont take the same jobs as men do.
They never mention how it is much riskier to hire a woman than a man.
All invalid issues
not that I know of.
that's not exactly an issue to fight for. I'm certain they do decry the individuals who do do that since it gives the whole movement a bad name.
but are there any invalid issues that they are actively tackling?
work on the ones that go get their purpose and are just saying things to get an unfair advantage.
just that the fringes need to work to do the job that is what there really trying to do than doing what they want
what feminist policies do you believe need changing. mainstream only as I will probably agree with you that most fringe ones are dumb, they usually are in any group.
just don't go into actions of individuals buy concerns and issues being tackled by the group as a whole.
that is true. I wouldn't say it is stupid only that it needs change
that's your opinion. however the movement itself is protected under free speech and you have no right to criticize it's ability to speak or exist.
I don't question or undermean their opinion they are just stupid opinions.
unless They're violent
yes. I don't demonize it myself.
I don't really care about feminism or their movement (not a woman), but I am completely against criticizing the validity or existence of any social movement, black, brown, white, male or female. heck, white power! they are indisputably covered by freedom of speech. what we can criticize the specific issues those movements are fighting.
let's discuss the validity of equal pay, the double standard, accusations of workplace harassment. we can discuss and criticize any of these topics, but we cannot criticize someone's right to gather and speak their views.
well if someone of their causes are legitimate then does that mean that feminism still has good it can accomplish and the movement should not be demonized?
I believe some are and some aren't
and you believe that none of their causes are legitamete?
yes but it shouldn't be assumed as fact. it needs to be looked at carefully so u can get the whole story.
technically, even if it isn't there, they have a right to free speech, no?
as long as there actually there.
I agree situations should be judged on an individual basis, but if there is unfair treatment done pretty regularly are you saying these citizens don't have the right to point out these injustices and voice their concerns?
no. every situation should be looked at individually and without bias. i don't think the feminist movement can do this and I don't blame them but if they make they should admit it and learn from it just like everyone else.
ur right I could be wrong I won't really ever say there's no chance that I'm wrong that would be stupid.
"they say somone is sexist or that there not being treated fairly before looking into the facts"
do you think its right to force a woman to return to work the day after she gives birth? it is one heck of a medical procedure that men simply don't have to worry about. is it fair to treat them the same when the situation is not the same?
maybe they are being treated unfairly and it is you who hasn't looked at all the facts?
the Clinton foundation is not a feminist anything. the sent out vaccines and disaster aid....
and wth are you talking about using genitalia to point out women's faults? that was trump talking about blood coming out of her whatever...
wtf are you talking about?! are you an idiot?
all you do is make idiotic accusations that have no basis in reality.
57% of women, my bad..
Now 57% agree with her Modern day style of Feminism.
If you want a feminist activist group that's idiotic to its core, look no further than the Clinton Foundation. Using genitalia to explain faults that women have, and that's it's not their fault they don't get paid for the same work, it's "sexism".
they say somone is sexist or that there not being treated fairly before looking into the facts. now this isn't always true but I have seen/heard from multiple human sources of this happening. sometimes maybe most of the time can't really say on that there right and something needs to be changed.
where are they jumping? I don't understand.
I don't believe their bad in general I believe that sometimes they jump before looking
you believe they are bad and are a problem, but you can't point to a single thing they did against you besides a one sided accusation.
not personally would have to get Yanks or someone else to do that because what I have is personal encounters. which since those are the only ones I can affect are the only ones that matter. if I was president per say I would talk to the head and also to the people to see how it is on the majority.
can you point to anything by this movement that they have done recently?
sorry missed it. this is more like underground talk. u won't hear it a lot because not a lot of people say modern feminist movement. u will hear them say feminist movement overall. we just don't like the one happening right now.
No.lol it's just harder because we are again taking in all feminist movements not just a general idea of a feminist movement
so no body can point to a serious reference to modern feminism outside of right wing media?
can we all agree it's not real now?
I'm still confused as to this "modern feminism"
it's not all feminists, but it represents all new feminists ideology? what about the ideas of all the new "non modern feminism" feminists? they don't count? are these man haters even a majority?
I have not been able to find this term in any feminist outlet and very little mention of man hating outside of YouTube and blogs....
OK thanks.will say he from now on
@buff I think u have confused on which vine it is but I will still answer
a while back u said that Yanks was bias but the fact is he/she isn't u just assumed he was coming from a biased angle without checking the facts. which ironically made u bias on that subject.
Yes I agree as well
lol that's pretty funny but I was doing that until someone putted something diff. up which u have done.
yes I can agree that it has added more women which is good
Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you two arguing against each other for the same perspective.
Now that you have actually defined your perspective, I can start pointing out why you are wrong. It's hard to so that untill you stop moving the goalposts.
Third wave feminism is hard to define, as are most modern activist movements. Social media gives everyone a voice, which fractures the message. I'll start with the central messages common to most groups.
Third wave feminists are typically more inclusive in who they are fighting for. First wave were typically white, middle class women. Second wave added black woman. Third wave brings in more groups, such as members of the LGBTQ community.
Can you agree to that part? If not we can debate it, if so I will move on.
which of your "facts" did I ignore?
yeah either that or start looking for bias sites that supports there opinion instead of cross-referencing.
Seeing a trend, realize they are proved wrong and instead of combating go and hide, good to know.
it's fine was just confusing for a sec.
Oh lol my bad...Thanks
I've been in agreement with you since the beginning I was answering psychdave and he just never answered
Thus answering for yourself the argument at hand, they are different .
looks like we're on the same page.
Exactly, Modern Feminism has poisoned Feminism and ironically it has been demonized because of this. Yet these are two diffrent things that should not be considered the same thing.
agreed when I see a women I don't treat her in anyway that could be deemed as sexist. I support the original feminist ideas that have been in effect since the original movement. when these women start saying sexist though the news gets in just like this particular woman wanted and twists the facts to suit there needs. and then every one gets reverse sexist bexause they don't want it to happen to them.
Thus the arguments at hand is that Demonizing men is not Feminism, and the fourth wave or Modern Feminism has not stayed true to what it is, and has created a hate for all feminists and taken strides backwards. The argument I stated is that is not what Feminism is, and it's up to us to get that through to people.
So we finally agree on something, and that leads to that Modern Feminism is different than feminism. Feminism in which even today some logical believe in equal rights and are not fooled by Modern feminists today, and do not demonize men for their problems. They don't look at their selves as a women for failing, they look at themselves a just any other man or female.
also there wasn't a single fact in that article only her opinions
I agree their not feminist. they sound like the sexist ones to me. I searched that site and found this article.http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-men/ which is really sexist. her whole argument is that men are these dictators that want to control everything when that is not the case. also she is saying we can have the chance to be the dictators over our wife's and society accepts this for the norm. but I promise u if I say a husband miss treating his wife I would kick his butt because thats not right and we don't get to do whatever we want.
The group is feminism and is all around us, just not what it's reasonable cause meant before
Look online and you will find Modern Feminism in Modern era, it's shared we call fourth wave feminism, and each wave stood up for something different, and so the definition had changed throughout these waves of feminism. For example the 2nd wave demanded the right to vote. The 4th wave also called modern feminism again is a group of its own, meaning rape culture and how men are not needed and normalizing make sterotypes, as seen with single mothers increasing, and pay strife increasing.
So when he said the people running www.everydayfeminism.com weren't feminists it makes sense how exactly?
I will absolutely agree that there are feminists who go to absurd lengths and make ridiculous claims, but it has yet to be shown that they are the majority. There are Christians who picket military funerals, and they do not represent the rest of the group. There are white people who believe in segregation, there are men who believe we should revoke women's right to vote and there are Italian people in organized crime. None of these define the entire group, so why do the most extreme members of feminism dictate what the movement is?
what he means is the general feminist group of this time. just like modern democratic and Republican party's they have change. the feminist has changed for the worse.
Yanks, you still haven't given a link to Modern Feminism as a distinct group from feminism in general. So far, you are picking and choosing who is and is not feminists based on if they support your argument. Do you have anywhere we can get a definition of Modern Feminism or is it just a sub-group you made up to be intellectually dishonest?
he's not being biased he has given u facts and u r refusing them because they don't agree with ur view.
The only bias here is of intellect. Let's ignore the claims of today that were never used by feminists before the 80's.. I think that sets them apart..
It's really not these are real MODERN claims used by FEMINISM TODAY.
This Havard Professer is dumb though yes?
so your entire argument is about what you think "modern feminism" is. you are deciding what all feminism based on your own biased perceptions.
Your missing the point, Modern Feminism and Feminism are two diffrent things. Feminism believed in equal rights, Modern believes in how the sexist system is responsible for their work ethic and that they should have a husband. That's why we are seeing more and more in the news protests of the "Wage Gap" and the number of single mothers jumping to 70% in black communities.
But when it has been pointed out that his statements do not reflect all feminists, he denies that they are feminists because they don't fit his description. That is a pointless circular argument.
he means if I'm thinking right today's feminism group instead of what it used to be
you are using this "modern feminism" as if it were a specific sect of feminism I am supposed to be familiar with. I googled the term and the only hit was a national review article and this link from
I don't know what this "modern feminism" movement is but it doesn't sound like anything that represents feminism in general, including the majority of its current forms.
We'll the argument at hand here is Modern Feminism, and this is a rare example of what it used to be. There is no random accusations of Men being responsible for all problems in their life. However it shares the same sterotype as modern feminism that they are harrasers and are pigs.
On a related note, your reference to agree with you is a blog. Could you explain why this blog is definitive on the subject?
So to be clear, you are classifying them as not being feminists because otherwise you have no argument?
They identify as feminist and they fight for equality (as it has already been established feminists used to). What basis, beyond the damage to your argument, do you have to claim that the authors of www.everydayfeminism.com are not feminists?
Now let's explain first of all, your right not all feminists hate men and that's as they are not feminists. They believe is equality and equal rights, and as do I. Modern Feminism as turned nothing more than blame everyone else for my problems so that I may progress to benefit myself. Prime examples is pushing for equal pay in cases where their is not equal work, pushing for the women's choice, accusing men of not understanding birth , using this as Birth control of their own immaturity while ignoring that half of women think opposing views. They tend to block out all opposing arguments that are given to them, and is the most anti free speech movment which started out AS the most pro free speech.
I'm sorry but your going to have to actually give me proof of this "across the board" anti men sentiment, not just an anecdotal rant to remove my anti bullshit magneto helmet.
So this is not in my head as all you need to do is look around you, and take off your anti logic Magneto helmet
I think it's fair to say that any feminist that will blame a man to get their way without putting any energy work into doing things themselves is counterproductive to the orginal reason of feminism in the first place. Now to answer your question , this man hating and sexism is across the board of all feminists, not only these lunatics you watch on YouTube , and is really sad to think this developed from a noble cause.
how is it hypocritical? I just said you were wrong on your presumption and your replying like we agreed!
I'm saying they aren't all trying to be men, but if one of them wants to, go ahead. if you want to stay home, go ahead. and they say the same to men. want to work, go ahead, want to be a house husband, go ahead. what is wrong with that?
and @yanks. where is this men hating feminists? YouTube? can you point to a legitimate popular feminist movement against men? I think this is just in u our head.
Yes modern feminism
Modern Feminism isn't Feminism and does not mean equality as it once did, when it had a purpose. Now the only philosophy that they use it that all men are evil. While in contrast most of not all are caused by themselves or not logical whether it be the wage gap or the "systematic" oppression of women in Modern society...lel
It is highly hypocritical though nemi. They don't want to be women. Their view of women is masculine.
modern feminism actually frown on previous feminists that wanted to be like men.... this topic is about modern feminism no?
I'll sum it up. Segregation was fought with the beauty of the black man, not hiding from him.
Modern feminism is tragic. Every aspect that women had to themselves was special. Genetically, women are more kind and caring. Sadly, they hate these ideals and instead want to be like men. Sexual attachments have been replaced by a desire for casual relationships. All in the name of equality and the double standard. Congrats women. Way to turn from dignity to profanity and sensitivity.