The debate "Noah's Ark is a Fairy Tale. Why" was started by
January 1, 2020, 10:18 am.
By the way, jrardin12 is disagreeing with this statement.
12 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 7 people are on the disagree side.
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diecinueve, Liam, Nemiroff, historybuff, JDAWG9693 and 7 visitors agree.
jrardin12 and 6 visitors disagree.
How could the flood have happened if we have continuous human civilization throughout the world during the time the flood supposedly happened?
Cultures that were around during the flood:
Old Elamite period (ca. 2700–1600 BCE)
Corded Ware culture (also Battle-axe culture, or Single Grave culture)
late Maikop culture
late Vinca culture
late Funnelbeaker culture
Globular Amphora culture
early Beaker culture
Yamna culture, Catacomb culture, likely loci of Indo-European Satemization.
the Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim culture emerges from the Catacomb culture from about 2200 BC, likely locus of Proto-Indo-Iranian.
Old Copper Complex of the Great Lakes region.
According to historical linguistics, the Proto-Algonquians would've lived around this time period.
Not counting the Proto-Indo-Europeans, whom lived around 4000 BCE, nearly 2000 years before the supposed flood ever took place.
These major events occurred during the time the flood supposedly happened....although how could they if the flood actually happened.
major events that occurred during the time of the flood:
Syria: Foundation of the city of Mari (2900 BCE)
Iraq: Creation of the Kingdom of Elam
Germination of the bristlecone pine tree "Methuselah" about 2700 BCE, the oldest known tree still living now
Dynasty of Lagash in Sumeria
Golden age of Ur in Mesopotamia. (2474–2398 BCE)
Third and Fourth dynasty of Egypt.
Unified Indus Valley Civilisation (2600 BCE)
Indo-Europeans first invade Greece (2300 century BCE)
Megalithic, Corded Ware culture and the Beaker people flourish in Europe.
mid- to late 3rd millennium, Hellenic immigration to the Greek mainland.
You can read all about it here.
where does it say that?
Created kind: Groups of living organisms belong in the same created kind if they have descended from the same ancestral gene pool.
what is the difference between kind and family?
by family i mean the official taxonomy term. such as how all dogs, wolves, hyenas, etc are officially of the canine family.
I believe you don't understand the difference between species and kind.
What if instead of two poodles it was a German Shepherd and a Mut? Would that not cause diversity? The Bible didn't say they were of the same species just of the same kind.
Let's say Noah saved 2 poodles as the only dogs. How exactly do you selectively breed those poodles to get a German Shepard? Or an Irish Wolf hound? You can't. You simply don't have enough diversity to get the traits needed. The reason humans were able to do this is because they had dozens of breeds with lots of different traits to get the ones they wanted. If you only have 2 pair, there is no diversity. Now over centuries and milenia you might be able to do this enough times to get small variations in the poodles. IE make a bit bigger or a bit more active. But you aren't going to be able to breed a Wolf Hound.
This is why the idea that noah could have saved enough animals to create the level bio-diversity we have today is insane. It is literally impossible.
Two dogs with different traits will breed different trait dogs.
Same design for the same place.
but families have also been forming in classes. deer and dogs have alot of similarities when compared to fish, lizards, bugs or birds.
give or take some time, your essentially describing evolution.
But they didn't start with only 1 pair of dogs. They had dozens of different breeds to start with. They then bred them selectively to get the traits they wanted. If they had only had 1 breed of dog (as you are suggesting they did after noah's ark) then it would take millions of years of evolution for the dogs to develop new traits. You can't breed for traits if all the dogs have the same traits.
Dogs are the most diverse of all animals and they didn't take even 200 years.
Obviously it is enough when you can get many species of dogs in less than 100 years.
50 year is nowhere near enough. There are huge differences between those species. That takes millions of years to evolve those different traits.
And again, we can see their genetics. We know, for absolute certain, that not all deer descended from 1 or 2 pairs. We are 100% certain that Noah's ark is not a factual story.
When I look up deer it only gives me Cervidae which is the one I am talking about. So Noah could have taken two of Cervinae and two of Capteolinae.
Even if Noah only took two deer it is still approximately 50 years for a new species to form.
That is because of human intervention. We intentionally bred them to our liking.
Are you suggesting that god intentionally bred deer to create 91 different species of them?
Just look at dogs many species have formed in just 200 years!
also a quick search says:
The subfamily Capreolinae consists of 9 genera and 36 species, while Cervinae comprises 10 genera and 55 species.
This makes 91 species of deer.
Did you not read what I just said. I made what you said is impossible to something possible.
Evolution takes hundreds of thousands or millions of years. So it is really, really obvious this didn't happen.
But we can look at the genealogy of all of these animals. If they all had 1 common pair of ancestors a few thousand years ago, we would be able to see that. But we see massive diversity in genetics. It is literally impossible for a global flood to had wiped out most of the species in the world.
I am saying that Noah took two dogs and from those two dogs came all the other species of dogs.
This could happen in two ways: 1. They could have formed in an explosive temporal burst right after the Flood or 2. in fits and spurts.
Based on comparisons between species the pattern is fairly linear. Species have been forming in families at approximately constant rates since the Flood.
There are 55 species of deer, that would give 80 years for a new species of deer to form.
So your argument is that noah brought 1 pair of dogs on board, then every kind of dog evolved after that? That would include wolves, German Sheppard, Burmese etc.
If that were the case we would see a colossal reduction in bio diversity. We would go from millions of different species down to like 2,000. But we know from genetic testing and fossil records that this didn't happen. We know that not all animals have a single pair of ancestors. It is a silly argument.
So I finally get to your misunderstanding. Noah did not have to take every animal on the ark just one pair of each kind. For example: dog kind, cat kind and horse kind. Making the amount of animals on the ark from between 2,000-16,000 animals.
The concept itself is kind of stupid for many reasons. But just take animal diversity. We have animals all over the world that are very, very different. There is no way you could fit them all on 1 boat and then transplant them all over the world.
Well then, what makes you doubt the story?
I said there was no hard proof so...
What proof? Please be specific.
There is no hard proof that it's real. there were events that made people think it was real but those were all disproven. and to think something like that would exist is completely blind thinking without real research.
Because God does magic
One reason per person please.