The debate "Now that the Mueller report has received public hearings impeachment proceedings must start" was started by
July 25, 2019, 10:55 am.
19 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 10 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
historybuff posted 11 arguments, Nemiroff posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
Nemiroff posted 2 arguments, mtbtheboss posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
historybuff, mwest0097, Nteby5, bigbuttgal and 15 visitors agree.
guchch, jrardin12, mtbtheboss and 7 visitors disagree.
I don't believe I ever said I thought a nuke would be fired accidentally. I said trump would order a nuke to be fired for stupid or nonsensical reasons. Or that he would cause a chain of events that would lead to one being used. The president has the power to use a nuclear weapon at will. No one has the authority to override him. If he decided to nuke Canada tomorrow, he could. And no one could stop him short of convincing people to break the law by refusing the order. And since he has been firing or driving out all of the people in his government with the spine to do so and surrounding himself with yes men and war hawks, that gets less and less likely.
Trump's massive stupidity and recklessness doesn't directly relate to the Mueller report. The reason the conversation went toward that was because Nemiroff was saying that Pence would be worse than trump if we impeached trump. He appeared to be saying that was a reason not to proceed with impeachment against trump. I was then explaining why Trump is much worse.
Please have a look at the 1st post to see my point laid out. But in short, it is now very clear that the president's team were open and receptive to Russian attempts to influence the election in their favor. Trump then broke the law at least 10 times trying to prevent investigation into it. Trump has committed numerous crimes while in office and i believe that impeachment hearings need to start as soon as possible.
the fact that you think a missle or nuke would be accidentally fired makes me it hard to look at your arguement seriously, but what does ANY of that have to do with the Mueller hearing?
Why would you think that? He almost started a war over an unmanned drone. He feels the need to attack (verbally) anyone who has any criticisms of him at all. Given his propensity to attack when he feels wronged, his need to be seen as strong and/or powerful, and his urging and/or encouraging of violence against people he doesn't like, I would say him using a nuclear weapon on someone is entirely within the realm of possibility.
And he doesn't necessarily have to use a nuke out of the blue. He is the sort of person who orders things without much thought. He could very easily trigger a chain of events that leads to nukes being used because he is too impulsive and stupid. For example if he were to ramp up american military patrols around china escalating tensions until china responds. once the tensions get high enough, eventually someone makes a mistake and fires at the other side. At that point the war is on and a nuclear attack becomes a much more reasonable option.If trump felt he needed to use one to "save america" from a war he started, i think he would do it.
He has also surrounded himself with yes men and war hawks, none of whom would have the spine to try to stop him if he made decisions that would lead to war. Many of them would encourage him to go to war, especially against Iran or China.
Add to that that he is fairly old and not in good physical condition. He is constantly slurring his words in speeches and seems to get confused by things regularly. There is some reasonably good evidence his mind is deteriorating which increases the odds of stupid mistakes being made.
trump would most definitely not nuke an area without good reason... and this is coming from someone who disagrees with trump on alot
No. Government will still function. Small compromises will be made. But that is going to happen either way. They are making compromises to Trump right now. That would continue under Pence I'm sure.
But the risk of trump doing something colossally stupid and killing people has increased significantly since his inauguration. He is becoming a bigger and bigger threat. He needs to be removed before he starts another war.
yeah, this is undeniable and definitely a strong reason to speed it up.
1it's not as if nothing got done during the Bush administrations. the made small compromises with Democrats who had to lb. do something. this whole full partisan mode is only since Obama. unless you suggest both parties be the do nothing parties...?
And even if he is more likely to get some minor, evil policy enacted, what is worse to you? That minor evil policy, or the mass murder of the entire population of Afghanistan or Iran when trump nukes them? Not to mention the Americans that will die in the decades of violence that will follow.
My apologies for using unclear language. I have only ever heard the lower house referred to as congress and the upper house referred to as the senate. I have never heard of both oft them collectively being congress. In Canada the 2 bodies are always referred to separately as far as I am aware.
So yes I am aware that republicans control the other bodies of government. But i still don't see that your point makes sense. In order to get new laws passed you need congress, which they don't have. Democrats aren't likely to want to give pence any kind of win.
Short of that, they just need to use government policy with the various departments. Those departments have already been filled with corrupt assholes who are already doing evil things. So whether those departments answer to trump or pence, the outcome is pretty much the same.
Democrats do not control Congress, they control the house, which is half of Congress. Republicans control the Senate, the other half of Congress, as well as the White House and the supreme court.
with this they will be able to stop or slow down the *blatantly* illegal things trump would do, but that doesnt mean nothing happens in a divided government. a competent politician like pence will be able to navigate around the Democrat controlled house. because his actions, evil as they may be, wont be blatantly illegal and will be much harder to stop.
I'm sorry, I don't see that your point makes any sense. The democratic controlled congress is capable of stopping any significantly evil things pence would do. Maybe he could find some way to be evil that trump wouldn't, but on the whole trump's domestic policy is as bad as it could get. Pence would just continue on the terrible things that are already happening.
But having a lunatic holding the nuclear football is insane. He has mused about murdering millions of people (nuking Afghanistan) and come within minutes of starting a war with Iran. Not to mention that he is ratcheting up tensions with China, supporting proxy wars in the middle east etc. Every day he is president is a gamble that a massive war will break out. And with Britain now also run by a complete moron there is one less country to try to hold back an american war and one more american ally cheering on the madness.
Trump has always been a bigoted nut job. But now that he is openly musing about genocide as a solution to his problems he is an imminent threat. The Mueller report definitively proves the president is a criminal. That is 100%, unequivocally grounds for impeachment.
I would say the opposite. controlling the house puts a stop to any crazy stuff trump would have gotten away with before.
however a competent politician like pence would be able to navigate a divided government, especially since he is only missing 1 chamber of 1 branch of government.
When they 1st got elected I agreed with your thoughts on Pence. Trump is a loud mouth idiot who couldn't get anything done and that undermined the ability of republicans to get evil shit done. But after the midterms the Democrats control the house, so their ability to do truly evil stuff is limited.
At this point, the majority of the evil they are doing is in appointing hardliner, partisan, judges; and the stuff his cabinet is doing (rescinding environmental policies, social spending etc). But that is being done by his cabinet. That would continue under pence in pretty much the same way as it is happening right now under Trump. I don't think that Pence could do much worse without control of congress.
let me rephrase.
trump is an absolute disaster as far as international policies. I was hoping he would focus mostly on domestic where our institutions would be able to resist him. Pence would he more effective at navigating our institutions, and be more effective in taking our nation in the wrong direction... but he would also be much less of a threat to international stability.
so the who is worse, imo, depends on if you look at it from domestic or international priorities.
other then that, I agree with everything you are said.
I acknowledge that a Pence presidency would also be bad. But trump made an offhand comment the other day about using nuclear weapons on Afganistan. He came as close as it is possible to come to triggering a war with Iran. His government is doing absolutely everything in it's power to destroy law and order in america. I honestly don't see how Pence could do any worse.
An impeachment proceeding would make it painfully obvious that trump has been using the presidency to commit crimes. There are alot of people in america who wont care about that and will support him. But those people are unreachable. They have completely removed themselves from reality and nothing is going to change that. Whether or not trump is impeached, they will support him. But a much larger portion of the population does actually care. The fact their their president is a crook will bother them. it will convince some people that they need to vote him out. It will further energize people who want him out because he isn't just a stupid old racist, he is a proven criminal too.
The reason impeachment didn't work on Clinton is because the republicans WAY over sold it. The guy cheated on his wife and lied about it. That is serious, but most people didn't really care. Trumps crimes are much, much more serious. Any one who learns what he has done and still supports the president would have done so no matter what.
Impeachment proceedings would likely boost his popularity in the far right, but hurt him everywhere else. And since he is bulletproof already on the far right, there isn't much of a down side.
1. waiting for the election was my prefered plan originally. I didnt want to see pence president. I thought that would be a bigger threat.
2. Pelosi have that fear isnt a bad thing. it should be some thing of great consideration seeing as the other side is politically thinking as well and not keen on exercising pure justice. that is why I said both fortunately and unfortunately.
however, the threat of inaction is likely not missed by her either. at the moment the pro impeachment crowd is saying impeach now! by resisting that I cant assume an impeach never position.
how would impeachment proceedings affect a presidents ability to be a candidate for reelection?
That is certainly what pelossi is saying her plan is. But i think she is lying. She was there for the impeachment of Bill Clinton. She is afraid it will blow back on them. I don't think she has any intention of impeaching trump. She is going to put it off indefinitely and hope they win the election, thus making it unnecessary.
But if she does that, people will just forget. Trump has a scandal every day or two. By the time of the election most people wont remember that there is definitive proof the President committed multiple crimes while in office. If she doesn't move now, then there will never be another chance. This will be just one more scandal somewhere in the massive pile of scandals.
that would be true if Senate Republicans were honest. I think Pelosi is slowly building the case for the American people so that they can hold Republicans to account if they pretend to be dumb. if that is Pelosi's intent, which is how it seems, then I am 100% behind her method.
but you are right, impeachment proceedings must start, and they cant be delayed too much.
Agreed. But impeachment proceedings would allow someone whose hand's aren't tied by justice department policy to lay out the facts for the american people. It's easy for trump to repeat no obstruction on twitter and have people believe it when there is no coherent narrative to counter it. There is alot of evidence that trump is super guilty, but since no one is there to turn it into a narrative showing how all the evidence ties together, people largely just pick and choose what they want out of it.
An impeachment proceeding in congress would allow a case to be made in a much clearer and fashion to prove beyond a doubt that trump is guilty. At that point it will be much harder for Fox and republicans to stand behind him. Ultimately, you may or may not be able to convince the republicans in the senate to vote against him. But everyone needs to see beyond any doubt that he is guilty.
And since there is now clear evidence that he broke the law at least 10 times, what message does it send that democrats have no intention of actually doing anything about it? If no charges of impeachment are brought, alot of people will just assume he is innocent. Alot of people will just forget all about it and it will make it that much easier for republicans to stay lined up behind him. It will also make it easier for trump to continue to commit crimes and get away it.
unfortunately impeachment doesn't mean what many think it does. the ultimate jury will be the Senate, and with double jeopardy laws, a blind pursuit of justice could let a criminal off Scott free.
these arent justice figures, these are politicians who take politics into account. that goes for both sides, for better or worse.
Some of, but certainly not all of, the critical details are:
1) the Russian government engaged in sweeping attempts to influence the US election
2) the Russian government wanted trump to win the election
3) The trump campaign were open and receptive to their help.
4) a member of the trump team passed polling data to agents/allies of the Russian government while this interference was in progress.
5) the trump administration attempted on at least 10 different occasions to interfere with the investigation into Russian election interference. Including Trump ordering that the Special Council be fired. (the order was refused)
6) The special council specifically states that trump is not innocent of obstruction of justice, but that Justice Department policy prevents him charging Trump with a crime.
7) The special council confirmed that trump could be charged with these crimes the moment he stops being the president.
At this point it is pretty clear that Trump broke the law multiple times by trying to stop or otherwise impede the investigation. The only reason Mueller wouldn't say he was guilty is because it violates ethics rules for a prosecutor to say someone is guilty without charging them because then they don't have the opportunity to defend themselves in court. And he can't charge him because of Justice Department rules.
No one is above the law. Trump needs to be impeached so that the criminal charges can be laid.