The debate "Opinions about religion I think God exist and He is the best" was started by
May 20, 2015, 6:11 pm.
31 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 28 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
PsychDave posted 9 arguments, GetRekt posted 3 arguments, toughgamerjerry posted 18 arguments, unfitzangetsu posted 1 argument, evamara posted 3 arguments, toughgamer posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
unfitzangetsu posted 2 arguments, soullesschicken posted 20 arguments, danielle posted 2 arguments, I_Voyager posted 6 arguments to the disagreers part.
evamara, PsychDave, GetRekt, Jamison, Sosocratese, Dbass24, marc_louie25, toughgamerjerry, ufufugh, ibrahim, Rhiannon09, Damn3d, danval130, action007man, denno27 and 16 visitors agree.
unfitzangetsu, soullesschicken, danielle, I_Voyager, rionagh99, alma_theo, jonatron5, tr, sdiop, jedty, DarkAngelAnarchist, lararea, PhoenixF1re and 15 visitors disagree.
I_voyager is right about my vote. I commented early on to explain why I voted as I did, but at this point it has been buried. I agreed that evamara believed that God is the best, as otherwise (s)he would not have created the topic.
Since you asked what I believe, I don't know whether God is real or not. I have never seen any conclusive proof of God, nor anything persuasive enough to disprove his existence. I tend to describe myself as agnostic, although many people who self describe as agnostic that I have spoken to fall closer to the atheist perspective. I try not to attack anyone's faith because I don't have proof that contradicts it, but if faith and science are at odds, I tend to side with whoever has supporting evidence.
Psychdave is just being cheeky. He doesn't believe in god nor that he is the best. He agrees that Evamara thinks god exists and he is the best. Which is the literal claim of the statement. This relates to how you were saying arguments should be made clearly, because if they're not made clearly it changes how a person reacts to it. Alas, some people just can't make clear enough what they're trying to say.
He and I asked numerous such questions in our conversation. We asked - if a time traveller goes back in time with foreknowledge of the past, does this rob a person of their free will? Similarly, if an AI is sophisticated enough to model the minds and physics of the entire world, and it calculates what choices we're all going to make before we make them, does this rob us of our free will?
I came to the conclusion free will has to be impossible. Instead, we have a limited, conditional will. Because it is limited by the facts and natures of reality, and conditional to our place and position in reality, it can be predictable. Your best friend can know what you will do, so too could an AI, a time traveller, a god. This is the only way this reality containing us can contain us. We cannot exist with free will, because existence by its nature implies restrictive conditions and limitations.
So if Christianity is somehow predicated on free will, it must also naturally disprove itself since free will is not a verifiable position. As you said, god can know what you are going to do and influence you. This means your will is limited to his reality and conditional to the way you are made. Your will is not free. There is still will. These is still choice. But it is not free.
If I had true free will, I could make any decision without something outside my will influencing my will. Although our society has proven that there are tricks to increasing the freedoms of will by using science to decrease the force of the universe around us on our will (by making more food, by curing diseases, by making tools which save us time, etc...) and laws have shown we can be more free in relation to eachother by limiting other things we can do (like murder, theft, rape), there appears to be no true free will. Just limited conditional will.
Some religions understand this and account for it. In Islam, there is no free will. Believers believe because it is gods will. Non-believers are tools beset upon the believers by god. In the quran it literally states we are all slaves to gods will.
Okay, first off I don't know why I asked on what a priori is I think I was just lazy but that won't happen again.
Second, I have a few responses to the article on foreknowledge and free will which was the first website to pop up. 1. What about the thought process leading up to the action. Say I'm going to grill hamburgers tonight. God already know what I am but how did I come to the conclusion of me wanting to eat hamburgers? I had to have my free will to make my own decision during my thought process to decide what I'm going to eat. 2. God created us. He knows everything that we are going to do before we do it, making him omniscient. But what about your best friend. Say your best friend knows you so well he knows what you will do if a specific thing happens. Then he makes it happen and you react how he knew you would react. Does that mean that you had no free will in how you reacted? Since God created us He knows really well how we will act and just makes something happen that causes your reaction, just like your best friend. Tying this to my first illustration, God made me hungry and because I was hungry, I made hamburgers.
I will be doing some more research and thinking of other ways to go against this while I wait for your answer. Also I am curious on what Psychdave really believes. He has given some arguments to go against my arguments and his decision is that he agrees with this topic. And yet I also had a debate with him on how evolution should not be taken as a fact that it is real. I was saying that it should not and he was saying that it should (P.S. He beat me). And which side was he on in your debate with him about theological fatalism? I'm confused!!
I don't disagree with your issues with google. Google is an educational supplement. The strategy I've developed is I look up specific phrases like "a priori". I'll look firstly for a definition, secondly for an encyclopedia reference, third for a debate/conversation, fourth for a literary reference. After I find a reference I'll do additional searches for things relating to it. For example, you'll find a famous philosopher Immanual Kant really used the term "a priori". Looking him up you'll find more information about how he's using such a term.
In response to what you're talking about with regards to god's plan and free will, research the argument against that called "theological fatalism". It's my go-to response. Psychdave and I had at it once over that in a debate over god. It's a tough nut to crack. But no one's cracked it yet. People usually dance around it, relating one set of reasoning to justify one element of their belief, and then another to justify the second, but never do they resolve gods omniscience and our free will. The best claim made was that god gave up his omniscience. And that's still not quite an argument.
Voyager, Google is not the answer to everything. I cannot put in an entire conversation to Google and find out what it means, I am not extremely educated on every theory against Christianity because if I was I would have a detailed argument against anything anybody brings up. Things don't always make sense to other people who don't know the information that you do. And I personally don't trust Google because it has given me results really far off from what I was looking for. Literally it had nothing to do whatsoever with what I had entered in. Not only that but it is a lot easier to understand when an actual person is telling you what something means. Although I will use Google more often from now on.
What I meant by saying that I don't know where I'm going with this was referring to the very last part on the theory. I understand everything else I just thought I would throw out the theory that I have heard before.
As for getting my point across, I expect people to google certain words or phrases they don't understand and then read/re-read 'til it makes sense. Unfortunately, some ways of thinking have their own language-components. Science, theology and philosophy all have these things. The more you try to debate over these topics, the more of their language types you'll run into. Fortunately you live in the digital age. Google will answer most of your questions even faster than prayer will ;)
Mind you I hate it when people are like "google it you dumb". It's mean. If a person asks what I mean I'll answer the question in the way Psychdave did. It's just, when people go out of their way not to either research or ask questions and instead shrug off the burden of learning which we all have, I get pissy. Psychdave is definitely the more patient debater.
I see toughgamer.
anyway, he doesn't understand if that is the case with so much evidence contradicting the bible. He shouldn't expect us to believe in him. he even went out his way to make it hard to believe in him.
If you're not sure where you're going with the argument you may be suffering from some cognitive dissonance. It always happens after a good debate. The right thing to do is to step back and let your subconscious munch on the information and arguments we've all made here, wait and see if the back of your mind comes to new conclusions while your consciousness rests.
As for your user name, I think you might have accidentally opened a new account. "Toughgamerjerry" still exists. If you look down and click on your username for that account, the account still exists. This account you're in now only has three arguments. Maybe it's associated with your Facebook or Twitter, while the old one is an e-mail or gmail based account. Or vice verca.
Did my name change for anybody else. For me it went from toughgamerjerry to toughgamer. Either one of these are mine and you can just refer to me as Jerry since no one else on this app has the name Jerry. Just wondering if that's a glitch or if I did something wrong.
We don't know anything that God thinks. But I do know this, He does everything for a reason. God created both humans and angels with the ability to make their own independent decisions and man and angels both chose to sin. God knew that so I think that he did it to challenge our faith. It would be too easy if everything was just laid out in front of us. So God wanted to challenge our faith. And there is another theory that I don't know if it is the same theory or a little different, but it's that we cannot prove that the earth was created a second ago and all of our memories were created two seconds ago as well. I think it's the same kind of theory. I don't know where I'm going with this.
But it makes no sense as to why a creator would do that other than to be deceitful.
For a satirical critique of that concept, you should look into Last Thursdayism. Basically the claim that the universe was made fully formed last Thursday and all evidence that contradicts that was put there by the creator.
So god made the universe appear older to be deceitful?
Psychdave, That may be true that it was not called Christianity before Christ, but now Jewish people do not go to heaven, because they believe that there will be savior, but they do not believe that Christ is the specific one. They say that if it is Christ then that is fine but if it is someone else then that is also fine. Jewish people before Christ believed in the prophecies told in the Old Testament saying that Jesus would come to earth and die on the cross. That is basically Christianity before Christ. Now if you are a Christian then you believe that Jesus will one day come back and take all His people to heaven.
Thank you for clarifying what vsause meant, I had not realized that. But a way that Christians can explain that is that God made the sun and moon on the first day. Maybe God made the sun with the light already where it needed to be so that it could light the earth.
And Danielle I thought the same way with one of the latest arguments brought up yesterday. This will most likely be my last religious argument because all what I'm doing is repeating myself.
Voyager, how do you expect your points to get across if you don't explain them and make them clear to other people. If a point is not clear to me I will either ask for clarification or ignore it.
Eurgh! can people not think if arguments more imaginative than is god real or not!
You also seem to be confused about a point. The people of Israel who believed in one God from the old testament were not Christian, they were Jewish. There is a reason Jesus was killed the King of the Jews. Until Christ there was no Christianity. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. So while Christianity has roots much earlier, it is not much older than 2000 years
Why you joined this app and what wording you understand is irrelevant to how we debate with you. If you want to be a gamer and control the conversation with pointless strategy that's fine. In my experience honest discourse makes for a debate. Of course, my experience doesn't control your method of debate... But I don't mind if you and I end up never debating because you don't want to hear certain words in certain orders and find them troubling, because I don't very much enjoy debating strategists more concerned with appearing to win rather than exploring truth and meaning.
When vsauce says that anything traveling at the speed of light's origin, it's journey and it's destination are simultaneous for it, he means from the perspective of the photon traveling, not for us. Everything with mass, and therefore not traveling at the speed of light, will experience time passing as it moves. So no, he does not disprove the time taken for light to travel between stars and us.
The fact that light does take time, and how much time, has been proven experimentally. It does not take am instant to travel between a star and earth, it takes many years. How many depends on how far away the star is. That is why distances in space are defined in light years, which is literally the distance light can travel in a year.
For actual evidence of experimental proof of the speed of light, look up the Apollo reflectors left on the moon that scientists have bounced many lasers off to time how long it takes to be reflected back. If it was instantaneous, this would be pointless after the first few times.
It is tough to get into scientific theory in this format because of word limits (and not wanting to post thousand word responses) but there have been many experiments to determine the speed of light, and they have gotten progressively more consistent as technology got better until now it is accepted to be 299 792 458 m/s. While that is obscenely fast compared to anything and everything else, that still means it takes 4.2 years to arrive from the nearest star.
As to your statement about time dilation (time slowing down) that is from the perspective of the one moving, not the rest of the universe. If you were traveling at the speed of light, the trip would take no time for you. The rest of the universe would go on as normal and, when you got back, everyone else would have aged and you would not. It would still take time from an external observer.
Ok, let's just say for the sake of argumentation that the earth was really old. How did it get here. How did it come to be? And I'm gonna ignore your wording that I don't understand that light theory when I clearly had to understand it to be able to refute it and I smashed it into the dirt face first. So now if we could continue without any unethical arguments that would be wonderful. I did not join this app to have people tell me how uneducated I am. Sound good?
OK fine, even if you don't understand that go to rationalwiki.org and look at the overwhelming evidence the earth is really really old.
Don't believe me? look up "would headlights work at the speed of light?" by vsause and it will disprove that theory.
At the speed of light time does not move at all. when you move even a little bit time moves a fraction faster than that of something standing still. So it would only take an instant in our time for light to travel.
Distant starlight is a good one. Light takes time to travel. although fast, not instantaneous. examples of this can show the universe has existed for millions of years. just search up "How distant starlight proves the universe is over 8000 Years old". I don't have the time to explain it in great detail.
Wait what when did you say the world was over 8000 years old and all you did was list what they are called but no evidence whatsoever.
And we have estimated that the world is around 8000 years old because of recorded dates that were proven to happen and using the ages that we were given in the old testament we estimated that the flood happened around 4000 B.C. and then we estimated that God created the world around 6000 B.C. so yes the earth is over 6000 years old and around 8000 years old. And we figured it out using facts that have been proven. And not by man made machines that can be easily faulty because nothing that man can make is perfect.
All those things I mentioned proved the earth is over 6000 years old.
Jerry can you give evidence the world is 6000 Years old?
Ok so for psychdave, Christianity was around before Christ. You are right in that Jesus was born about 2000 years ago, but people were able to be Christian if they believed that God was the only God and that Jesus would die on the cross. Because there were prophecies in the old testament. And the law was also established in the old testament.
Soullesschicken give me some examples of those predating things and you never said what the date actually was so I don't see how that is an actual argument. please explain.
Oh and thank you Psychdave for letting me know what priori means. : )
OK, so people think that the earth is 6000 years old, even though we have: Dendrochronology, Human Y chromosomal-ancestry, Permafrost, Petrified wood (note this can be done in months, but is much slower in natural conditions).
Oxidizable carbon ratio dating, Rock varnish, Thermoluminescence dating, Coral, Fission track dating, Ice layering, Lack of DNA in fossils, Weathering rinds, Animo acid racemization, Baptistina asteroid family, Continental drift, Cosmologic nuclide dating, Erosion, Geomagnetic reversals, Impact craters, Iron-manganese nodules, Length of prehistoric day, Milanlovitch astronomical cycles, Naica megacrystals, Nitrogen in diamonds, Relativistic jets, Sedimentary varves, Stalactites, space weathering, Distant starlight, Helioseismology, Lunar retreat, Radioactive decay.
Feel free to refute.
Just so you know for the future, a priori means came first. It is a phrase used quite a bit in theological debates.
"Christian knowledge is a priori because it is a priori" is basically saying that it came first because it just did, rather than giving evidence.
According to Christianity, Jesus was born about 2000 years ago. If Noah's flood happened 4000 BC, that is 4000 years before Christianity can possibly exist (since Christianity cannot predate Christ). Could you explain how it is the oldest religion when, even by its own internal records Judaism predates it, and based on other resources there are many religions that predate it?
Sorry people didn't just populate North America but also every continent in the world.
Okay first off I did not understand anything that voyager said because the Bible itself can disprove most of those "facts" and others just made no sense whatsoever. Christianity was the first belief and it has been around before any other belief and every person was informed of Christianity but some people thought they had a better reason and went away from Christianity.
The Bible says that all children will go to heaven because they are not at the age of understanding that there is a God and how to become a Christian and stuff like that.
Noah's flood happened in 4000 B.C. We believe that God created the world in 6000 B.C. and people populated North America after the tower of babel. which happened after Noah's flood.
I don't even know what a priori is and it makes no sense saying that it is a priori just because it is a priori.
the book form of the gilgamesh came after the full Old Testament was finished not before the Bible.
Going to heaven requires first, that you believe in the one and only God, second, that you accept that He is your savior and the only way to get to heaven is through Him, third, that your life shows that you have changed and became a Christian and preach the word to other people who do not know the word, or those who are struggling in some moral issue and request your help.
@Toughgamerjerry so those missionaries speak the language the tribe does?
Plus, why would god let Satan rule earth? Why? Or does he just work in mysterious ways killing innocents to do so.
This is just an assumption. From what we can tell, it was tens of thousands of years ago that, let's say, the Asiatic ancestors of the native Americans crossed an ice barrier from the one continent into North America. They migrated more and more south and to this day there are uncontacted tribes in the Amazon rainforest which likely don't have any cultural memory of Christ. Only by trusting the bible can you assume some "universal state of Christian knowledge". And such an assumption allows for beautiful circular reasoning to validate Christianity. Christian knowledge is a priori because it is a priori. It's poor form though. There is no evidence for the universality or the "firstness" of Christianity, unless you cherry pick your facts and sort out the all the other ones which don't validate your view.
Just as a point of reference - the epic of Gilgamesh predates the Christian bible. It's a human idea which came first, and framed a society, and explained a series of ethics and values. All the tribes which came before or were unrelated to Christianity came before the fact of or exposure to Christianity. Only by taking the bible by its word, and ignoring all the evidence to the contrary (such as the three thousand year old written records in China which verify that there were civilized Chinese tribes as far back as 5000 years) can you come to an alternative conclusion.
From what I can tell, going to heaven requires (according to the bible) that you believe in god. I can't see how a child would fulfill that condition if they die before believing in god. You can say a child ought to go to heaven because they were pure, but why would that be valid? Because you believe it to be so? Or because morally it would justify itself? Unfortunately your feelings or sense of justification is neither knowledge or truth.
He doesn't work like that. He sends missionaries to go and preach the gospel to them. I personally don't believe that God would let anyone die without hearing the Gospel at least once. And you cannot say that no one has because once you ask them if they have heard the Gospel then that is telling them about the Gospel. But if it did happen then it was not God's will for it to happen. Because Satan is released into the world and God is letting him do as he pleases for some time. Although after he rules the old earth for 7 years after the rapture, then God will put him in prison for eternity. I do not know God's plan, so I cannot answer every question you have. If I was able to then that would make me all knowing and therefore I would be God. But God cannot create something just as big or bigger than Him, or else that would mean He is no longer God. There are people all around the world who have not heard the gospel a lot, but I believe that they have heard about it at least once. And kids do not count because until they are at the age to where they can understand the Gospel, they will go to heaven.
I'm curious about how everyone knew about Christianity at some point. Tribes that have existed in isolation for more than 2000 (Africa and South America for example) years could not have heard of Christ because they had no contact with Europe or the Middle East by the time he was born.
Why wouldn't god create a bible to appear in the tribe? Instead of torturing them for a mistake their ancestors made.
Everyone knew what Christianity is at some point in time. But the people who created the tribe thought they had a better reason that didn't include God. So it is their fault that nobody in their tribe after that didn't know about Christianity. It is not God's fault that the humans He created disobeyed his command and let sin enter the world.
The tribe had no idea of anything other than the tribe. So I should venture through the jungle abandoning the others? When all I know is tribe? I could die on my way to finding society.
A child goes to heaven because a child is not at the age of understanding right from wrong. And yes because you choose to stay in that tribe you will go to hell. I don't see how that is so hard to understand. You chose to stay in that tribe so it is your fault that you go to hell.
ok. So my tribes fault means I go to hell? I go to hell for something that Is not my fault?
A baby is being born. The mother dies midway through the childbirth.
Does the child go to hell? It's not his fault he died. But he was not Christian.
Then it is your tribes fault for not worshiping Christ. The said tribe had to start somewhere and every belief or religion outside of Christianity, was started because someone thought their idea was better and therefore by starting a tribe he condemned himself and his people until provoked otherwise to hell. It seems just for a God who created you and everything around you to send you to hell because you don't want to believe that He created you but instead make up your own reasons and conspiracy theories on how He didn't make you and everything around you. Also, nobody is perfect, just because you have done one good thing does not mean that it out weighs everything you've done wrong. In the Bible it says that no matter what the sin is, God looks at sin as sin, whether it be murdering someone or telling a lie to someone. So because of that, God gave us all a way to get to heaven, even though none of us deserve it, He cares so much for us that He still gives us a way into heaven. Think of it like this, most people, and I hope you included, will say that their parents love them very much and they love their parents, and yet, when we do wrong our parents discipline us, whether it be timeout, grounding, or spanking, they still descipling us. But why do they do it? Because they love us and don't want us to become horrible people but instead want us to be the best person we can be. It is the same with God. He doesn't just let us into heaven even though He loves us so much. He gave us a way into heaven and if we ignore that then we deserve to go to hell because that is saying that we don't want to be a better person. Don't take that offensively please. I said better not good. We could all get to be a better person always.
It's extremely harsh. Think about it. Say maybe I'm born into a tribe that still exists away from modern society. we worship the sun. I never meet nor hear of a other world with technology or the bible. I die one day of natural causes.
I go to hell.
Is it just? no.
It doesn't matter what earthly things we do. If you are not a Christian, and no it is not blind faith and I will explain if asked, you will go to hell, end of story, literally.
what did He did to you? do you think he is bad? well "if He exist" I can ashure you that He is good.
I know that if god exists my grandfather is I'm hell. Being tortured. For a belief.
well, God is 100% wise, He dont thinks like humans, he is completly fair, and he knows who deserves the heaven and who dont. Im shure God knows if you Grandpa were good or bad.
For not having blind faith I get eternal torture? a little harsh. When my grandfather passed away he was atheist. and a great man. He died one night of old age. He raised 11 children, and served in world war two. any decently smart god wouldn't send him to hell.
Its something called faith.
So what's the excuse for sending every person who doesn't believe in something with no evidence to hell?
All of those things that God did, He had a reason for. When He told Abraham to sacrifice his son, he did it to test his obedience and provided an animal to take his place. He flooded the earth because the earth had filled with evil people who didn't believe in Him, so to keep Christianity alive, He killed everyone except for Noah and his family. He killed every first born in Egypt because the Egyptians were holding His people as slaves and would not let them go unless He brought 10 plegs. God approved of slaves that were not His people. And He also says that they must be treated justly and fairly. Colossians 4:1. Finally, God sends people who do not believe in Him to hell. God gives us a way into heaven, but if we ignore that then He condemns us to hell.
toughgamergerry drowned planet, sends people who dont believe in something with no evidence to eternal torture. killed first borns of Egypt and more.
there are many different examples where God causes huge amounts suffering.
god tells Abraham
god causes the great flood from noahs ark
god approved of slavery and even made conditions of how long you could own someone for
and before some says thats all the old testament jesus specifically says he is not here to change or destroy the law's set before him by god and prophets
Wait where in the Bible does it say that God in not all good?
Getrekt. I am mad people think he is a good being and he is the best with all it says in the bible to counter that.
Sorry but iam referring to Danielle and soulless chicken's statement.
I dont get angry at god for not existing I get angry at religon for insisting that he does exist whilst presenting absolutely no evidence to support that believe. on top of that every religion says that their god is best whilst completely glossing some of the truly atrocious act that gods of many different religions gods have committed which is written in thier holy texts.
Why do you guys mad at GOD?
So you're blaming at something that you don't believe exists. Are you mad at gnomes for not existing too?
Exactly, well put.
I agree with soulless chicken, god is meant to be all loving yet more than half the people on this planet are condemned to go to hell! what kind of all loving god would let cancer exist, or terrorism, or Ebola or evil... this is why if god exists he isn't that great, if he's omnipotent and can do anything the fact that he is letting innocent people die from horrific illnesses is evil and he himself should be condemned in hell.
he sends non believers to eternal torture, he drowned a planet, killed MANY. and he's the best?
I can certainly agree that that is your opinion.
well what prove do you have that he exists??