The debate "Shia are non Muslims" was started by
October 29, 2015, 2:40 am.
By the way, Anas is disagreeing with this statement.
14 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 35 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
confident posted 4 arguments, Anas posted 21 arguments, Sunni posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 5 arguments, Lane posted 2 arguments, PsychDave posted 20 arguments, Anas posted 11 arguments, Sosocratese posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
ISI, Spy, Ghauri, Sunni, erikD9921, Nury, Ramna_Ayesha, iSmuggleJews, SunniMuslim123 and 5 visitors agree.
historybuff, srishti_pinkleaves, Lane, PsychDave, advr93, wmd, Nethersquid, mafiajo, roshni, Anas, supersheep2140, onestops, Sosocratese, ananthu and 21 visitors disagree.
Alex, your argument demonstrates the problem with this kind of debate nicely. You include belief in the trinity as a requirement of being Christian, but there are Christian sects that do not believe in the trinity. By your argument, even if they follow the teachings of Jesus, and even if they call themselves Christian, they are not.
It is even a less definitive distinction than that. According to the Catholic Church, the four pillars are the Apostles Creed, the Seven Sacraments, the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer. So the comparison would be that any religion that changes the Lord's prayer or does not perform the Sacraments the same as the Catholic Church is not truly Christian. Would you argue that any Christian faith that does the Sacraments differently is not Christian?
Shia and Sunni are similar. They both worship the same God through the teachings of the same prophet, but they disagree on how to do so. Both claim the other has fallen from the true way to worship, and so both claim the other is not truly Muslim. Sunni have the majority, so they tend to get to say how the rest of the world sees Islam, but that doesn't give them the ability to say that Shia is not really Muslim.
ok, someone else on here said they followed the 5 pillars. if they don't then they are not islam/muslem, if they do then they are.
one of the five pillar of islam is to pray 5 Times a day and shia does not follow that, they pray three times a day like i have said before. another pillar of islam is to go for hajj in mecca and u can see in my last argument that shia had created their own kaba in karbala and they perform tawaff over there.
it seems to me, only from reading this argument that the shia are like christian prodestants, changing beliefs and things. Prodestants are Christains, so it seems the shia should islam/muslem.
is there a core islam belief that they don't follow. like to be christain you must believe in the trinity. is the 5 pillars if islam like that, or do you have to believe other things to be considered islam?
shia only ask help from their Imams. "Ya Ali Madad", "Maula-e-Kainat Ali", "Ali Maula" are examples. in islam allah is the only provider.
they consider Karbala more better place than Mecca and also in their religion reward of Visiting of Grave of Hazrat Hussain (R.A) is equal to 1000 Hajjs & 1000 Umras.Thats why they have created a fake Kaaba in Karbala and perfrom tawaf of that Kaaba in Karbala.
they changed kalma and thats not a little thing.
the combined two namaz together, who have gave them right to do that.
It seems the only argument that can really be made here is that Shia violate the prescribed mourning period as described in the Koran. There is also the whole temporary marriage thing which is more of a tribal thing than a religious believe. However, they still follow the 5 pillars of Islam and a violation of the mourning period and a holding to tribal traditions seem like a miniscule offence which doesn't impact the belief system as a whole.
You may, in your faith, not recognize them as true practitioners of Islam, but that is like saying the protestants aren't Christians because they went against the church or that the catholics aren't Christian because they hold certain believes and traditions not described in the Bible. Catholics, protestants, evangelicals, quakers, etc... Are all Christians, just different sects. For all intents and purposes, the core believes of Shia and sunni are Islamic in nature and thus can be classified as Islamic sects.
When Hazrat Muhammad (sall allhu alehiwasalam) 's son Tahir died he stopped Hazrat Khadija from moaning and crying for the child and said that dont you want to see him standing on the door of Paradise ?
This is the proof that the holy prophet (p. b. u. h) was against matam or anything similar to it.
because your only evidence against shia didn't come from the prophet Mohammed. they came from people after him. why do you think that the views of other people can define Islam? they are not Mohammad. Mohammad was the last prophet.
He is, and when I asked him for information he has not responded yet.
You on the other hand keep spouting the same lines ignoring any argument against you. I am asking where I can find proof that it is against Islam, not the Sunni beliefs.
Confident cites an example, but in the context Hazrat Ali could have simply meant that they were in the way, not that they should not be mourning. To generalize from that quote seems a stretch.
"Confident" English is much better than me but you don't agree him. He give you lots of evidence but you asked again and again
why you at last don't accept this truth that shia are non Muslim
All I am asking for is where the prophet said anything about it. You have repeatedly said he did, but not where I cam see what he said. You have cited your religious teachings as forbidding it, but that is like saying that since protestants forbid selling absolutions, Catholics are not Christian. One section cannot define another.
Where can I see prophet Mohammed's words about it?
Please reread the comments you are referring to. You told me to grow up, and when I asked why you thought I was immature you started complaining that I called you immature. I recognize that English is not your first language, and you do far better at it than I could at Arabic, but I did not call you immature so please move on to debating something real.
Sometimes you asked Immature types Question
and you call me immature
If Allah not say about Matam but his Prophet Sallallaho Alaihe Wassalam said avoiding things like a Matam and The Sahabi of Holy Prophet Sallallaho Alaihe Wassalam said about same thing so what are you ask again and again?
You're not trying to face any reality
I've watched your many debates between Alex, soscrete and others
When you lost him so you try to talking immature style
Quran is book of Allah
When Prophet Sallallaho Alaihe Walihe Wassalam said and Hazrat Ali Razi Allah said to avoiding things like a matam (we also give you reference)
so why you asked in Quran?
In Quran is there is no define the method of "Wazu" and the method of "Namaz".
but in Ah-Hadees clearly define the method of Namaz & Wazu
What verse in the Quran forbids it?
Is that question simple enough?
We give you lots of reference
Did the prophet forbid people from mourning? I have repeatedly asked where in the Quran it says matam is forbidden, but now there are two of you avoiding answering. I have admitted that I am not an expert on Islam, but in my research I cannot find anything in the Quran that prohibits matam. I am used to Anas not understanding, but you seem logical and we'll spoken. Could you explain where it is forbidden?
and email technology wasnt there at his time, they used to send msgs through people and holy prophet (pbuh) never stoped from sending letters or msg through people so this show that sending emails is allowed in islam and holy prophet (p. b. u. h) said that get education even if u have to go to china and this thing shows that muslims can go to any country if they want to.
This is written in shia's own book.
Hazrat Ali (rd) going from one place when he saw some women doing (Matam)(moaning crying hurting ownself), at certain moment the leader of that tribe came in. Hazrat Ali(rd) was very upset with him and asked him that you even do not control these women (ie, to stop them from doing this).
this clearly shows that matam is not alowed and still shia think that matam is allowed. how many proof do u want.
I give you lots of evidence about Matam
You've any logic and evidence to do Matam in Islamic point of view
About Hinduism I asked again again again any logic?
but you avoiding my questions
you only killed my brain
that's why delete it
Nabi Sallallaho Alaihe Walihe Wassalam is not cease us to avoiding to go north America
Nabi Sallallaho Alaihe Walihe Wassalam s not cease us to avoiding email etc
I give you lots of evidence
but you only think you won this debate with your small knowledge
A wise said "Little Knowledge is dangerous"
Did he at any time say it was not allowed? I have asked repeatedly and so far Anas has avoided answering each time. If the answer is yes, telling me where shouldn't be a problem.
The prophet also never sent an email in his life, but that is not banned in Islam. He never visited North America, but that is not banned in Islam. There are many things he did not do that are not against Islam. To justify saying it is, you need to be able to point to where the rule against it comes from.
Anas, you made a topic about Hinduism without knowing anything about it and without bothering, even after debating, to do even basic research. My knowledge of your faith is far more than yours of Hinduism. If you can debate a religion you know nothing about, why do you feel entitled to criticize my knowledge of Islam?
During holy prophet lifetime (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) a number of senior Sahaabah were martyred and he mourned their loss, such as Hamzah ibn Abd al-Muttalib, Zayd ibn Haarithah, Jafar ibn Abi Taalib and Abd-Allaah ibn Rawaahah, but he did not do any of the things that these people do. If it was good, he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would have done it before us. isnt it enough for us muslims to know that matam is not allowed in islam.
Because you're talking without any sense
Kindly improve your knowledge about Islam than discussed
lots of evidence about Matam with English translation
It is interesting that, when I ask you to provide a reference to where in the Quran it forbids matam, you avoid answering and instead are insulting. You are right, I am not an expert on Islam, but I do know some. Now, rather than again avoiding the question, could you tell me where in the Quran it forbids matam?
Who Had Shaheed Hazrat Imam Hussain Razi Allah Tala Unho
did you know?
Imam Hussain Razi Allah Tala Unho isn't say that do Matam
If shia loved Him so why they do matam
its against on Islam
Does Allah say to debate on here?
Does Mohammed say to debate on here?
Does the Quran say to debate here?
Have any if the imams said to debate here?
Since I doubt any did, does debating here mean you are not Muslim?
Of course it doesn't, it's not forbidden. It is something you choose to do.
The Shia mourn those killed at Karbala including Mohammed's grandson and his family, as well as the suffering they faced. Is that forbidden in the Quran, or are you just pointing to another difference and saying that since it is different they are not Muslim?
So are you saying that mourning is against Islam, or just how the Shia do it? Does the Quran forbid it, or are you just citing a difference again and claiming that since it is different from your beliefs they are not Muslim?
that's why shia are not Muslim
I don't say they disagreeing with Sunni
They are disagreeing with Islamic rules?
They do matam
its against on Islam
who say that do matam?
Allah isn't say that do Matam
Mohammad Sallallaho Alaihe Walihe Wassalam isn't say that do matam
Quran isn't say that do Matam
Adam Alaihe Salam and others messengers & prophets doesn't say that do Matam
Islam isn't say that do Matam
so why shia is do Matam??
its a biggest work against on Islam
you've any logic about Matam
Says who? Why are you the authority on who is Muslim? They are not disagreeing with the Islamic faith, they are disagreeing with the Sunni interpretation of it.
with my faith?
if anyone disagreed with Islamic faith because Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho are very respectful for all Muslim. if anyone disagree so he totally non Muslim
Are you enjoying your circular arguments?
If anyone disagrees with your faith they are not Muslim because your faith says that anyone who disagrees with your faith is not Muslim.
Because there are many "true Ah-Hadees" about Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho
did you know the meaning of "Hadees"
its mean that shia doesn't believe all "true Ah-Hadees"
so if anyone doesn't believe all Islamic rules
all True Ah-Hadees
so he/she is not a Muslim
If not believing in him doesn't mean that you are not Muslim, why does not believing what you believe mean someone is not Muslim? You are using the same logic you condemn them for.
I said he is our enemy
I mean shia
Is he Mohammed or Allah?
if anyone doesn't believe all Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho so he is a Muslim? how
he is our biggest enemy than others
Shia doing many things like Hindus
they do "fire's matam"
Hindus also believe on fire
Christian Jews Buddhist Hindus are much better than shia
you know why?
because you also don't believe Mohammad Sallallaho Alaihe Walihe Wassalam as last messengers of Allah
you also don't believe all Islamic concepts
but shia believed all Islamic concept expect they don't believe all Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho and they don't believe the wife Mohammad Sallallaho Alaihe Walihe Wassalam "Hazrat Aisha Razi Allah Tala Unho"
you don't justify that you are a Muslim
but shia is justify that they are Muslim
but they don't believe all Islamic concepts
that's why they are biggest enemies than other
No, it is not an example that their beliefs are against Islam, it is an example of how their beliefs are against yours. You are not Allah. No matter how sure you are of your faith, only Allah knows everything. They follow a different path than you, but they still worship Allah through the teachings of his prophet Mohammed. You are neither Allah nor Mohammed to say they are against Islam. You can most certainly say that their teachings are against Sunni beliefs, but you cannot claim that you speak for Allah in judgment.
"The wealth property"
its a major example of how shia is against Islam
there is not differences between shia & sunni
shia is also against Islam
if anyone who against Islam so you called he is a Muslim?
Matam, Mutta and their other works also against Islam
Also, with the variety of beliefs that Shia encompasses, it is fairly simplistic to lump them all together and say they are not Muslim. I'm assuming that you do know that there are many beliefs under the umbrella of Shia.
So because they believe a few things slightly different, they cannot be Muslim? What if they are right and you are wrong?
I also proof with reference
I don't what sunni say about this topic
Kalma is basic of Islam
but Shia's kalma is also change so clearly prove that they're not a Muslim
Sunni said he had pictures on his Facebook that proved Shia are not Muslim. I was asking if he could explain these pictures.
You did not explain why they are not Muslim, you demonstrated that there were differences between what you believe and what they believe. Those are two different things. Whether the majority of Sunni agree with you is irrelevant. If the majority of Catholics thought Protestants were not Christian, they would still be Christian even though there are differences between the two faiths.
Shia do many things against Sunni beliefs. They stem from the same religion. They both worship Allah. They both follow the teachings of Mohammed. They just disagree about what some of those teachings mean.
You don't get to define them any more than I could claim that you are not truly Muslim. You cannot decide what someone else believes.
shia do many thing against Islam
Pshycdave I proof in words with reference read my previous arguments
majority of sunni believe it shia are non Muslim historybuff
Can you explain your proof in words?
surprise, surprise, a sunni thinks a shia isn't a Muslim. forgive me for not immediately taking your heavily biased opinion.
Shia are doing many things Against Islam
I totally agreed with Anas
Anas described reference that how shia are non Muslim
I've many proofs shia are non Muslim in Facebook because image not allowed in this app
your entire argument is that Sunnis are the proper Muslims. maybe Shia's are the only Muslims and you are something else.
I don't care
what's about Christian?
what's about other religion?
but In Islam there we've to Respect our all Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho
If anyone don't respect all Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho
so he/she is not a Muslim
Do you know about similarities between shia and Judaism
why shia are non Muslim?
"The wealth the property and everything which belongs to a Sunni is actually yours (is legal for you)"
Tahzib-Ul-Ahkam Vol. 2 Kitabul Makasib Iran publication
"The property of non-Jews according to our Jews belongs to no one, and he first Jew that passes has full right to Seize it"
The TALMUD to sefta, Tractate Erabin Vlll Soncino, 1961 edition
I heard shia do this on night of "Eid-e-Ghadeer" to celebrate nomination of the Imam. It is called "Group Mutah"
shia perform "Mutah" on Eid-e-Ghadeer night and consider it is a great reward see the following letter from Shia Alim as a proof. Also website Mutah.com is another example of shia shameful act.
Are these proofs enough or you need more?
Shia kalma is also change
Kalma is basic of Islam
So how shia are Muslim?
Anas, you understand that claims like these are the reason there are so many problems revolving around religion?
You cannot tell another person what to identify themselves as, and you cannot tell them what they cannot identify themselves as.
While Shia DOES have certain beliefs that you may not agree with, it is still based out of the original Islam religion. Christianity has hundreds of different sects, but they are still all called Christians. They base their beliefs off of where they split from. Catholicism split off of the Orthodox church, and Protestantism split off of Catholicism. But they still have the same basic idea. Same with the blanketing name "Islam" and Shia. It is not the tiny nuances that make a religious sect become completely independent of a mainstrem religion(in this case the Shia from Islam). It is the doctrine. Shia and Sunni have soooo much in common. Most important of the similarities is the standard for morality. Supporters of both religions want to reach Jannah, and the way to do so is to act morally. That effort is what Islam teaches. So how can Shia be considered non-Muslim? What about the many things they do that ARE THE SAME as what you do? If they still cannot be considered Muslim, then are those practices wrong? Can you still call yourself Muslim? Who are you to even define exactly what it means to be a Muslim anyways? That is a personal statement that should not be forced upon others, nor should it really matter to anybody else.
Also @Anas that is very shallow to say that, because I am not Muslim, I do not know anything about the topic. I would not be commenting, nor would really I be interested, if I did not have at least a basic understanding of Islam.
Also @Anas your words were "You're not Muslim so you don't know about shia. shia are not a Muslim" Does that logically support your argument? You are associating being Muslim with knowing Shia, which seems to imply that the two are, in fact, related, through their similarities.
I think your next point, rather than pointing out differences, should be clear about why the similarities do not matter seem to matter.
Catholics have confession, other Christian faiths do not. The Catholic Church sells absolutions, other faiths do not. All are still Christian, they just have different practices. Arguing that there are some differences between the two sects is not going to get you anywhere since because there are not similarities than differences.
They do "matam" there is no "matam" permission in Islam. that's why clearly prove it
they're non Muslim
most of that was just gibberish to me. but the underlying point remains the same. the shia are a variation of sunni. they changed a few of the beliefs and practices but the fundamentally believe the same things Sunni do. they are Muslims. they don't just believe everything sunni clerics say.
Their "Fast" timing also change in Ramadan
Yeah they Believed Quran But why they are not believed all Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho
we also believed and favour Hazrat Ali Razi Allah Tala Unho and other Sahaba but
Why they favour only Hazrat Ali Razi Allah Tala Unho
why they're not favour in Hazrat Abu Bakar Razi Allah Tala Unho Hazrat Umar Farooq Razi Allah Tala Unho, Hazrat Usman Razi Allah Tala Unho??
some Shia against some Sahaba Razi Allah Tala Unho
Is written that Quran Paak to do Matam?
Their Kalma is also change
They do many things against Islam
Their Namaz is also change etc
By that same argument you are not Shia, so you don't know about Shia. Though there are some differences, there are far more similarities. You point to specific differences as grounds for claiming that they are not Muslim, but they could claim that they have it right so you are not in fact Muslim.
Shia is based on the Koran and call themselves Muslim. While you may disagree with them, they are Muslim.
You're not Muslim so you don't know about shia
shia are not a Muslim
Who is anybody to tell somebody else what they are? And honestly, who really cares? Pretend I am a Christian, more specifically Catholic. Can Orthodox people tell me I am not Christian anymore? In this case, Shia is a sect of Islam. It came out of Islam very clearly and directly. How can it be said that they are not Muslims, except by people who clearly have a problem accepting that people believe different things? LOL
for being a Muslim you have to believe in oneness of allah, you have to follow the guidelines in the quran pak and you have to follow sunnah. is is written is quran pak to do maatham? is it written in quran pak to have allam on our house roof? are there three namaz written in quran pak? is there written to wear threads around your arm to make your wish come true? is the shia's kalma written in quran?these are just few of the things there are even many more.they are not following islam they are making up their own religion. instead of going for hajj or umra in saudi arabia they visit iran, it is written in quran to go for hajj and umra if you are capable to go but there is no such thing about visiting iran. they are not following islam
they are a variation of the same religion. Protestants changes alot of things when they split off from Catholics. that doesn't mean they aren't Christians. just because you don't agree with some of their beliefs doesn't make them a separate religion.
what shia are doing is completely wrong, maatham is wrong. In islam suicide is haram then how can they think that allah will appreciate them for beating themselves. we all have grief over hazrat imam hussain and his companion death but maatham is not a way to show your grief. In islam allah had declared that the person who dies in jahhad is called shaheed and a shaheed is always alive. And the thread that they tie around their arms is stupidity they think a thread that had came from iran will complete their wishes those "mannat ka dhagha" are stupidity why dont we just tell every single of our wish to allah when we have direct contact to allah. and those allam, shai think that the people who will not have allam on their house roof, God will not accept their prayers. Can you just tell me where in quran pak it is written to have allam over our house roof. shia had changed the kalma, they pray three times a day instead of 5 they combined the 2 namaz together. they changed the whole religion still they call themself muslims, unbelievable.