The debate "Socialism is just a less extreme version communism." was started by
December 28, 2017, 9:44 am.
18 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 7 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
Masonearl posted 12 arguments, Nemiroff posted 11 arguments to the agreers part.
Masonearl posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
Masonearl, biosdaddy, Knockout, katp, Austynbb, WalkerH2026, Ashes, chickboy1776, RealCaffNasty, MrLibertarian and 8 visitors agree.
anu1302, bernie2020 and 5 visitors disagree.
that's why taxes are awesome. assuming it's not some rich lord building statues but is actually being spent to improve the nation and the lives of its citizens. it's why the government can prioritize things other than profit and give beautiful results like the Hoover dam or our highway system.
and if you have any complaints remember that the gov's customer base is 330 million coast to coast, and a certain party keeps cutting it's budgets. "wasteful" beauracracy prevents more costly fraud, and no one talks about this, but most personal and business beauracracy is from private insurance companies, not government.... unless your building an interstate pipeline on the regular.
it's not about taxes are good or bad, it's about is the spending good or bad. cutting corners is never a good long term strategy. smart investment is.
likewise. it is rare, on either side, to find people willing to weight facts and consider nuance.
real world capitalism is not the supply/demand balance we expect on paper. nothing with only 2 factors will ever represent reality. I don't see how the people who handle the money see higher compensation then the people who save lives and improve life (doctors and scientists) of whom their are fewer and demand is higher. why do percieved "women" jobs like teachers underpaid relative to skill, effort, and demand?
I think that the game is too big for most people to value properly, so the middle men who handle that money decided what is valued, and of course they are #1. we, as a society need to figure out what it is we feel should be most rewarded, because right now we are steering our brightest minds away from solving our problems and towards bouncing around money to reach a high score.
communism as a whole may only work on paper, but the same goes for the ideal version of capitalism. finance is complicated, and average joe is not going to get it. which is why the people should unite (like the government) and everyone chips in (taxes, no slackers), and monitor what is going on in our nation, and adjust the laws to ensure a stable and favorable *for all* outcome.
interestingly, Canada has tighter regulations on banks and they didn't have the same problems American banks did. they lobbied hard to be allowed to make the same risky loans, our government said no. as a result they didn't need to be bailed out.
regulations can prevent alot of problems.
the problem with right wing views of capitolism is that these days, those views are having the opposite effects. cutting taxes and regulations on major companies helps them gain more power and dominate their industries. Google or Amazon for example. in a few years, if Republicans get their way, they will completely corner their markets. at that point competition ends and you no longer have capitolism.
uncontrolled capitolism leads to things like the banking crash of 2008. banks didn't have enough regulations to stop them from doing risky things. so they collapsed. with out vast amounts of public money they all would have gone bankrupt.
Socialism is cancer
If you say anything further, I will read it but I'm going to have to respectfully end the convo here because Im tired and have to go to sleep. You were good btw.
well if you're referring to prices going up constantly, capitalism believes in producing as many of the goods and services that are rare as possible so that they become less valuable, less expensive and many companies would sell them at lower prices. so for those two reasons prices can be lowered from capitalism. while price gauging is rapant, it is only in the areas of products that still need to be focus more on.
I will agree that the base tax rates were high, and ideally should be lowered... but no one pays those because of loop holes.
Soros stated he pays less % then his secretary, and it's public record that mitt Romney payed 15% on his millions which is way less then I pay. many corporations do the same. I would be down to lower the margins and eliminate these loop holes and many democrats feel the same, but the tax bill lowered rates without touching the tricks. it's robbery. the rates wealthy people and companies pay are tiny in this country!
taxes is how the government makes money, and is able to provide services regardless of profit. if there is no profit in something, capitalism doesn't touch it. that's its biggest flaw.
well the average Joe's in USSR certainly had to share in communist like policies, but that's after the ruling class had first, excessive, pick. obviously the remainder was insufficient.
however, I already stated that No one is preaching communism. I do feel that certain industries should be nationalized, including healthcare. capitalism doesn't work because when your dying you don't ask for prices, and even if you did, could you refuses? price gouging is rampant and the free markets completely fail in this field.
which is why even if they weren't true communists, their communist approach to economic Policy was still the direct cause of all their economic failures.
the main reason I'm a capitalist is because communism simply does not work. it reduces effort because no matter how hard anybody works, everybody's going to get paid the same, so nobody's even going to feel motivated to do anything, and if there's no private ownership or right to own your own buissiness, then freedom of thought and individuality are restricted on the market. There were reasons you had to wait 10 years just to get one car in the USSR. You have claimed that it's not communism because there was no true abolition of class, but economically speaking there were still communist policies enforced.
Bernie Sanders promising socialist policies if he got elected. They also believe in using people's tax dollars to pay for just about everyone's Health Care in the nation at once, which is why Healthcare is still very expensive and politicians can't work out a good health care bill. Democrats have always been in favor of big spending, higher taxes, and controlling certain things economically rather than letting the people do it. They take tax from hard workers for third-party purchases, which I personally believe is against capitalism in of itself.
I understand that many of your media claim that the left is destroying capitalism, but can you name an actual left wing policy aiming to dismantle capitalism?
if anything it is currently the right endangering capitalism with its sharp turn towards extreme laizefaire policies. can you point to anything the left is doing to harm the system? preferably something national level.
The reason I disagree with left-wing economic policy is because I do believe that capitalism is under threat. capitalism is itself a good practice and I don't want to see it ruined or repealed.
so what is your issue with left wing economic policy? do you believe the core fundamentals of capitalism are under threat?
I also do agree that small businesses do need an even playing field. I'm not saying we should restrict the success of large businesses, I'm just saying corporate monopolies, and charging small buissnesses more or as much as large ones is insane. There has to be big business and small business. Capitalism is the belief that anybody should be able to succeed based on their own labor. Making it impossible for just about everyone except the ones already in power is the exact opposite of that concept.
I get what you're saying. Don't make the higher-ups gain less, just make the lower classes gain more. I do agree with certain things like the minimum wage being adjusted with inflation and earners being able to.. well, LIVE.
anything excessive is bad. regulations are but a tool, use it improperly and it can do alot of damage, but I just don't believe that has happened. I'm sure bad regulations exist in our nation, but I haven't seen any examples of them.
I think the limit should be infinite in someone's ability to profit assuming the profit is shared proportionately to some reasonable extent. there is no way the worker should make the same as an innovator, or a higher skill worker, but if profits are rising, so should all wages to some degree. just holding all gains in the upper ranks is not working for society. the government shouldn't regulate that directly, but it should take action... like a higher minimum wage or specific taxes, and maybe a shame campaign. (maybe).
im also against infinite length or perpetually renewed copyrights. that's not fair to civilization. and competition must be protected. aside from that, there should be no legal limit to income.
oh, and keep their money out of politics, cause money speech is wayyy to loud for the average voter who isn't being heard.
oh, in case you're wondering I don't like Trump. He does bulshit with all of his business agendas like repealing net neutrality. He only wanted to be president just for money and financial gain of his businesses. I like capitalism but I don't like laissez-faire capitalism, we're small businesses have no advantages.
well, it's like you said I do have right-wing beliefs. Generally speaking I believe over-regulation is excessive taxation I'm putting limits on how much money they're allowed to own. I believe if somebody worked hard on their business they should be able to be entitled to the rewards of their own work.
I don't think anyone disagrees with you. the number of people who want full blown elimination of private ownership are similar to those who want full blown anarchy or a return to authoritarianism.
I'm happy you didn't fall for the right wing attempts to turn regulation into a dirty word, but your definitions of communism and socialism are clearly right wing. so I wanted to see how you view our state of regulation during Obama years, and the trend of deregulation now. were we over regulated? under regulated? Or just right?
personally I'm in the highly underregulated camp.
I simpily believe many good things have come from capitalism. like I said, I do agree it needs to be regulated but I don't agree with getting rid of it or changing it completely. Many good outcomes have come from capitalism, such as new technology, lower prices on imported goods, and availability of goods and services. I'm just afraid that it's going to be gotten rid of completely, since I believe it has done much good for societies.
i think we are on the same page as far as policy. our disagreements are in semantics. I do not consider those nations communist for reasons stated: they have a ruling *class* and huge inequality between the classes. they are nothing more then dictatorship wearing a flimsy mask.
communism certainly is a paper friendly philosophy (for now), but socialism is a whole spectrum and most things on the communist end are likely nonfunctional, but regulated capitalism is the socialism of me, most democrats, Bernie Sanders, and all of Europe. also maybe a couple of safety nets. I don't think you sound like you disagree with it.
The problem with communism is that it sounds good on paper but does not work in practice. North korea, the USSR, Venezuela, China from the fifties to the seventies, it simply leads to nothing but dictatorship, poverty, genocide, or any combonation there of. Now while I do believe in capitalism as a system, there's a far difference between guilded age capitalism and modern regulatory systems of capitalism. while I do believe capitalism does need to be regulated, I do not agree with Socialism or communism in any sence.
liberitarianism was great in the past.
communism will be great in the future.
socialism is the ideal middle for now.
how does being a less extreme form of communism make it a bad thing? I think picking and choosing the best parts of communism and fusing it with the best parts of capitalism is excellent!
instead I would argue that the extreme form of capitalism (wild west liberitarianism) is the greater evil.
full blown capitalism hasn't worked since mom and pop shops gave way to mega corporations, and the liberitarian belief that these corporations interests are in line with your own is Ludacris. Even tho it's nonfunctional now, as technology eliminates scarcity and automation limits available jobs, full blown communism will be the only working option.
I think I know why you think communism is evil. the mantra of communism is elimination of class divisions and the sharing of the nation's wealth. do you really think the dictatorships with a well off ruling class and a starving public are communist?!?!?! are you communist just because you call yourself communist? is Assad a dictator? Or the president of a democratic republic with a 97% approval? he claims it's democratic, does that make it so?
The just is to emphasize that socialism is not a good thing even though people make it out to be.
I don't understand the purpose of the "just" in your title.