The debate "The Bible Tells Truthful Arguments" was started by
November 25, 2019, 10:00 pm.
26 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 20 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
jrardin12 posted 20 arguments to the agreers part.
jrardin12 posted 1 argument, TheExistentialist posted 17 arguments, Nemiroff posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
jrardin12, Annie07, HopeleSSJames3925, kbrown91, Unaluhabe and 21 visitors agree.
TheExistentialist, Nemiroff, diecinueve and 17 visitors disagree.
Yes, but miracles must be proven true between religions. I will address both the starlight problem and miracles in more detail later today. If you can just hold on.
miracles are claimed by numerous religions and individual miracle workers, thus if the are evidence, then there is evidence for christianity, Hinduism, various pagans and native religions. kinda weakens the claim.
"But, a miracle is evidence"
no it isn't. It's a willful suspension of reason. We have never observed a suspension in the laws of physics or nature. We don't have any evidence that any miracle has ever actually occurred. So you're simply presupposing the existence of God in order to solve the problem.
"Your argument that distant starlight disproves biblical creation and supports the big bang is based on faulty reasoning."
So for you to solve the starlight issue you must invoke magic.
"Since most of creation was done supernaturally it is irrational to demand a natural explanation for them"
Sure; but there are some "supernatural" problems you run into as well. Since light contains information, your God must be a deceiver if he created light "in transit". SN 2016iet is about 1 billion light years away. We observed the supernova in 2017 that lasted 600 days. So when did God provide us with the false information that the star was intact vs when it blew up? Conventional science tells us that the event actually happened about 1 billion years ago and we're just seeing it now. However, in your theory, somewhere along the line we were tricked into believing what we observe isn't what is actually happening.
Also, why do we have redshift in light (redshift only occurs if light takes time to reach the observer). At what point in time did God stop deceiving us?
"quantum-corrected Raychaudhuri equation" Is this the inflation model?
Yes and no; in this model you don't start at a singularity, rather a compressed, finite (not infinitesimal) sized universe that expand. So yes, there is expansion, and yes there is a big bang, but there is no singularity.
However, none of these theories really matter until we get a grasp on gravity. Unfortunately without a quantum theory of gravity we can't really go beyond T=10^-32 of a second after the big bang. We're getting close though. LIGO and Virgo just started their 3rd run and we should have those results next year. Also KAGRA joined the data pooling with LIGO and Virgo, so we should get a lot more data by next year.
Just like the Higgs Boson was the holy grail of matter, quantum gravity is the holy grail of existence itself. So unfortunately the starlight "problem" is really a product of an incomplete picture at what happened between T=0 and T=10^-32 of a second after T=0. Once we can narrow down which theory of expansion (we know that expansion is inevitable due to the fact that we can observe expansion)
"quantum-corrected Raychaudhuri equation" Is this the inflation model?
Your argument that distant starlight disproves biblical creation and supports the big bang is based on faulty reasoning.
1. It is based on the fallacious assumptions of naturalism and uniformitarianism by assuming that light got here by natural means, traveling at a constant rate, over a constant distance and being constant as well. While God could have used a natural mechanism, He could also do it supernaturally.
2. Just because we cannot provide a natural mechanism that does not mean the Bible cannot be trusted. Since most of creation was done supernaturally it is irrational to demand a natural explanation for them. It is arbitrary circular reasoning to say supernatural explanation is wrong because it cannot be explained naturally.
But, a miracle is evidence.
by what mechanism other than a miracle (i.e. the suspension of physics)? in other words you'd need to prove God's existence to solve the problem.
"Actually, the Big Bang also has a starlight problem as well."
Not if you use the quantum-corrected Raychaudhuri equation, derived quantum-corrected Friedmann equations, as opposed to classical geodesics.
Ahmed Farag Ali at Benha University and the Zewail City of Science and Technology and Saurya Das at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, have shown this in a paper published in Physics Letters B.
We just don't know enough about the Big Bang to definitively describe every mechanism, however, that doesn't invalidate the big bang as a whole. It simply means we lack the ability to explain the immediate aftermath of the big bang; but even the general inflation theory solves the starlight issue without needing to invoke a suspension of physics or an alternate set of physics to solve these problems.
copy of the paper
Also, God can easily make starlight reach earth since Day 4 of creation.
Actually, the Big Bang also has a starlight problem as well.
By the way; just curious, are you able to solve the starlight problem of a young earth/universe?
The starlight problem states that if the universe was only 6,000 years old — as Biblical literalism and Young Earth Creationism (YEC) state — then there would not be sufficient time for distant starlight to reach Earth. We can see light from stars more (way more) than 6,000 light years away, therefore the universe cannot be a mere 6,000 years old.
The furthest objects visible, quasars, have been detected 13 billion light years away. After allowing for the metric expansion of space, this puts the lower limit of the age of the universe at near 13 billion years. The methods of measuring distances to the billions of light years are rather complicated, but there are direct measurements well beyond the limits of YEC, using only parallax. There are the measurements of the supernova SN1987A at about 168,000 light years, and the Gaia space mission should obtain many distances of objects up to about 30,000 light years.
Here are a few more questions I'd like you to answer
Can you please explain how we have continued writings from the Indus Valley Civilisation lasting from 3300 BCE to 1300 BCE; these people reached the height of their civilization between 2600 BCE to 1900 BCE. This would fall directly into the years of the flood.
Could you please explain how we have coral reefs if the entire earth was submerged under 29,000 feet of water (keep in mind it takes about 10,000 years to form a coral reef and that reef building coral can only grow at a depth of about 60-90 feet)
Could you please explain how the oldest bristlecone pine tree "Methuselah" could have survived the global flood (it was germinated around 2700 BC).
Can you explain how we have continued evidence of human existence in the Americas for up to 24,000 years (although the most conservative numbers place it at around 13,200 years). Since we didn't have any migration to the America's until well after the 1st millenia, how could we possibly have humans living there pre-european settlement?
can you explain how we could possibly have marsupials in Australia that are not found anywhere else in the world since we didn't know it existed until 1770? are you saying that koalas swam from Australia to the middle east and then swam back after the flood receded? Could you also explain how the aboriginal people got to Australia after the flood (they've been there for the past 50-60,0000 years)
How do you explain isolation of plants even across similar climate zones if a global flood happened?
How do you explain the fact that Fungi, Protista, Archaea, Bacteria that can't survive salt water are still alive today?
"Before the Flood there was no Everest."
Why do you just make assertions that have no basis in reality?....Everest is about 60 million years old. So yes, it was definitely there at the time of noah's flood myth.
Tibetans migrated to the peaks and valleys of the Mahalangur Himal range around 3000 BC. They made reference to it in multiple writings, as did the Chinese and Nepalese
the historic, local Tibetan name for Mount Everest is Chomolungma, also spelled Qomolangma, meaning "Goddess Mother of the World." Chomolungma is pronounced "CHOH-moh-LUHNG-m?." The Nepali name for Mount Everest is Sagarmatha, meaning "Godess of the Sky."
Please substantiate the claims you're making; especially when they fly in the face of conventional knowledge. I'm kind of assuming you're just pulling nonsense out of your a** since a) you haven't substantiated any of your claims, b) you can't seem to actually address any of the points being made except for seemingly made up nonsense.
There are 14 peaks in total that are over 8,000 meters in height that pose the same problem as everest. Are you going to try to claim that none of them existed until 2347 BC?
There are well over 100 peaks that are over 7,000 meters in height which still pose the same problems as Everest. Are you going to try to claim that none of them existed until 2347 BC either?
There isn't just one argument.
The conclusion is based on the totality of the writings studied, the writings studied from that time period, other writings by the same author, writings studied by other authors of that time, the syntax used, the grammar used, the mention of specific events and sects, the use of more modern church concepts, etc.... It's an entire field of study.
The Epistle to the Ephesians, also called the Letter to the Ephesians and often shortened to Ephesians in particular is dated to 70-80 AD. The authenticity of Ephesians has been in question since 1792. Scholars who dispute Paul's authorship point out that the possible location of the authorship could have been within the church of Ephesus itself.
Give me one of Philologies arguments.
Before the Flood there was no Everest.
"If we flattened the earth, the water on earth would flood the earth by three miles."
This is just utter nonsense.
The volume of a sphere is easy to calculate: V = 4/3(pie)r^3
The earth has a radius of 3959 miles
To achieve the biblical flood you'd need to cover mount everest by 15 cubits (should we even talk about the results of a world where every animal has to survive 1 year in the "Death Zone"?; there is a reason why nothing lives above 26,000 feet. Noha's flood level would have been at just over 29,000 feet----can you please explain how the arch occupants survived for a year at that altitude when most people can't survive for 48 hours?)
So the radius of the earth plus flood would be 3964.5018939 miles
quick math gets us:
259,923,241,564 miles^3 for the volume of the earth.
261,008,408,332 miles^3 for the volume of the earth at flood.
subtract and we get:
1,085,166,768 miles ^3 of rain to get from current ocean levels to noah's flood levels..
Now, let’s cut that by 25% because land, mountains, etc. occupy some of that volume. The 25% figure is generous since oceans, which by definition sit at sea level, cover 70% of the earth and the rest of the earth isn’t nearly as high as Everest. (so this assumes that the entire landmass is as tall as everest).
That means that there had to be 813,875,076 miles^3 of rain for the biblical flood.
All the water on earth only adds up to about 332,500,000 miles ^3.
So for the biblical flood to have happened, the water on earth had to miraculously multiply by about 250%.
"I don't know where you get 2300 BC. I know some Bible scholars that set it at 3000 BC."
Using the Bible, well-documented historical events, and some math, we find that the Flood began approximately 4,359 years ago in the year 1656 AM or 2348 BC.
I've seen 2304 BC +/- 11 years
I used the most favorable to your argument that I could find.
Please provide your sources for the 3000 BC claim since I've never seen it pushed back that far. However, that isn't really an issue as there are multiple civilizations that existed through 3000BC.
"But why are they considered forgeries?"
I've stated it multiple times; Philology has been used to analyze the texts and has found them to be forgeries.
But why are they considered forgeries?
Philology has convinced most biblical scholars that 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians and Colossians at the very least are forgeries. Other texts are suspected to be forgeries as well; however the previously mentioned are widely accepted as being forgeries.
Well; C14 is not the only dating method we have.
Uranium–lead radiometric dating involves using uranium-235 or uranium-238 to date a substance's absolute age. This scheme has been refined to the point that the error margin in dates of rocks can be as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years. An error margin of 2–5% has been achieved on younger Mesozoic rocks.
One of its great advantages is that any sample provides two clocks, one based on uranium-235's decay to lead-207 with a half-life of about 700 million years, and one based on uranium-238's decay to lead-206 with a half-life of about 4.5 billion years, providing a built-in crosscheck that allows accurate determination of the age of the sample even if some of the lead has been lost.
Rubidium–strontium dating method
This is based on the beta decay of rubidium-87 to strontium-87, with a half-life of 50 billion years. This scheme is used to date old igneous and metamorphic rocks, and has also been used to date lunar samples. Closure temperatures are so high that they are not a concern. Rubidium-strontium dating is not as precise as the uranium-lead method, with errors of 30 to 50 million years for a 3-billion-year-old sample.
None of these rely on atmospheric values. C14 is only reliable to about 58,000 - 62,000 years.
---However, this is still much more than 6k years.
Neither of these techniques rely on distribution but rather on half-life.
Please provide the evidence for your earlier claim that:
"There are earth is about six thousand years old. Astronomy and geology have proven it."
I don't know where you get 2300 BC. I know some Bible scholars that set it at 3000 BC.
"The Flood happened at around 2500 BC"
According to the bible the flood happened in the year 2348 BC. The bible is pretty explicit about that (you can simply do the math).
Did you not read?:
Proto-Indo-Europeans, whom lived around 4000 BCE, nearly 2000 years before the supposed flood ever took place?
2700 BC–1600 BC: Old Elamite period.
2900–2350 BC: Early Dynastic Period (Mesopotamia)
2686–2181 BC Old Kingdom of Egypt
2600 BC–1900 BC: Harappan 3 (Mature Harappan).
So the civilizations you mention could easily have started not too long after the Flood.
The Flood happened at around 2500 BC.
If we flattened the earth, the water on earth would flood the earth by three miles.
Why does this biblical scholar say they are forgeries?
Problems with radio carbon dating is the fact that it is based on the assumption that the atmosphere has always been the same. Also the magnet field causes a smaller production of C14. Also C14 does not proven a billion or even a million year earth
we have census data from china during the time the flood happened. No population drops were recorded
There is not enough water on earth to cover the entire planet
Reefs would have died and not grown back if there was a global flood
Please provide evidence for the flood being true.
In the 4th millennium BCE, several ancient civilizations — notably Ancient Egypt and the Indus Valley — had existed, and continued to exist, without any sign of total extinction from a global flood. Egypt has a continuous written history going back to about 3100 BCE
Cultures that were around during the flood:
Old Elamite period (ca. 2700–1600 BCE)
Corded Ware culture (also Battle-axe culture, or Single Grave culture)
late Maikop culture
late Vinca culture
late Funnelbeaker culture
Globular Amphora culture
early Beaker culture
Yamna culture, Catacomb culture, likely loci of Indo-European Satemization.
the Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim culture emerges from the Catacomb culture from about 2200 BC, likely locus of Proto-Indo-Iranian.
Old Copper Complex of the Great Lakes region.
According to historical linguistics, the Proto-Algonquians would've lived around this time period.
Not counting the Proto-Indo-Europeans, whom lived around 4000 BCE, nearly 2000 years before the supposed flood ever took place.
major events that occurred during the time of the flood:
Syria: Foundation of the city of Mari (2900 BCE)
Iraq: Creation of the Kingdom of Elam
Germination of the bristlecone pine tree "Methuselah" about 2700 BCE, the oldest known tree still living now
Dynasty of Lagash in Sumeria
Golden age of Ur in Mesopotamia. (2474–2398 BCE)
Third and Fourth dynasty of Egypt.
Unified Indus Valley Civilisation (2600 BCE)
Indo-Europeans first invade Greece (2300 century BCE)
Megalithic, Corded Ware culture and the Beaker people flourish in Europe.
mid- to late 3rd millennium, Hellenic immigration to the Greek mainland.
Bart Ehrman professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill analyzed the book of Ephesians and shows that the text, filled with long Greek sentences, doesn't match with Paul's peculiar Greek writing style, made of short sentences.
Moreover, the content of what the author says "stands at odds with Paul's own thought, but is in line with the Ephesians," writes Ehrman.
The biblical scholar, who also challenges the authenticity of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John, disputes the assumption that the Apostle Peter wrote the Epistles of Peter or anything else.
According to the biblical scholar, at least 11 of the 27 New Testament books are forgeries, while only seven of the 13 epistles attributed to Paul were probably written by him.
"Virtually all scholars agree that seven of the Pauline letters are authentic: Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians and Philemon," says Ehrman.
Individuals claiming to be Paul wrote 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians and Colossians, he adds.
The Catholic Herald, conceded that "some New Testament books probably were not written by the people traditionally assigned as authors,"
"There are earth is about six thousand years old. Astronomy and geology have proven it."
please provide sources with this claim
Radio carbon dating alone shows that the earth is older than 6k years
Mass spectrometry; phylogenetics; Iodine–xenon dating; Luminescence dating; Melt inclusions; Archaeomagnetic dating etc... all put the age of the earth as well over 6k years old,
Anthropology shows that we did come from two people.
Anthropology is the study of culture.....how exactly does the study of culture show that we are descendants of 2 people?
If you're talking about chromosomal adam and mitochondrial eve; you should know the two don't overlap in terms of age.
Y-adam lived about 340,000 - 280,000 years ago and mitochondrial eve lived about 200,000 years ago. So there is a 80-140,000 year difference between the two.
"Evolution is wrong when it comes to man and has been the cause of racism."
non-sequitur since it has no bearing on the truth of evolution.....
Which texts are forgeries?
There are earth is about six thousand years old. Astronomy and geology have proven it.
Anthropology shows that we did come from two people. Evolution is wrong when it comes to man and has been the cause of racism.
The Global Flood did happen. There is plenty of evidence (of course it depends on ones worldview).
Well, one at a time would be good as well.
I'd disagree here.
There was no global flood
Adam and Eve didn't exist
The earth is more than 6k years old
Philology tells us that quite a few texts in the bible are forgeries
Israelites never fled egypt (we know this from mesopotamian texts that predate the bible)
If you disagree please give your reason.