The Christian religion is not compatible with freewill

January 7, 2016, 11:01 pm

Agree27 Disagree18

60%
40%

The debate "The Christian religion is not compatible with freewill" was started by progressive on January 7, 2016, 11:01 pm. 27 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 18 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

progressive posted 7 arguments, historybuff posted 3 arguments, Aditya04 posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 1 argument, Alex posted 22 arguments to the disagreers part.

progressive, historybuff, Aditya04, Naruto_uchiha, solo10166, Wookie, numbskull, danielle, mohammad, Arixeo, swp16, pajrc1234, franciscotrejo and 14 visitors agree.
Alex, multishooterftw, tommy5015, gamelia94, Peypey, Talks_N_Rants, bcdunn7, thatdebatingchick, redeemed and 9 visitors disagree.

PsychDave
replied to...

That should have said that the church has artistic masterpieces that they hoard.

I will also mention that you are not presenting logic or evidence. You are presenting religious dogma as evidence that the religion is true. That is circular logic because of the nature of organized religion. Religions have authority because God is all knowing and all powerful. Their proof is that God told them so. Unless you can demonstrate some part of that independently, you have a group of people who stay in power by telling you that they should have that power.

While I agree that the current Pope is far less hypocritical than previous ones, the fact that it comes as a shock that the Pope would eat with homeless people shows how hypocritical the system has been for a long time.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

As I am not convinced God exists, no, I can't say that I will ever accept that his magical mind sees all and knows all. I am too aware that the man behind the curtain in this case is the church and that they have made billions of dollars and amassed an enormous collection of artistic masterpieces that the hoard. When the church gives all of its money to the poor, I will believe that they are honest, but I will never trust a faith that tell me poverty is holy, so I should give them money to help the less fortunate while sitting on an immense fortune.

You are asking me to ignore logic in favor of miracles, without ever demonstrating that such is possible. I will ignore causality when you provide a persuasive argument for why I should do so. Until then, you can have faith while God knew everything you would ever do before he created the universe, he didn't actually control what you did when he set up every factor and influence that you would ever encounter. I will continue to believe that if God exists and is all powerful, he controls everything, and if he does not, he obviously controls nothing and we have limited free will.

3 years, 7 months ago

we do actions, they get set in stone when we chose them. Jesus sees what we put in stone and tells us what we chose.

I wonder of you will ever acept the fact that jesus and God is out of time.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

If Jesus simply saw, this would be a sufficient explanation (if we accept the miraculous nature of his consciousness). The problem is with his prophetic statements. He may be able to observe in real time every action, but when he says something will happen to one of his disciples, it must happen.

The Bible makes predictions about the end of the world. Will these things happen as it is written? If so, are they set on stone? Observing something is possible without influencing it (kind of but I really don't want to push this into quantum mechanics) but as soon as you write down or tell someone about you are not just observing it. You have made a record of something that WILL happen. If that record is correct, there is no other choice or alternative to what you have recorded. Jesus could, theologically, know everything without it being predetermined, but as soon as his he creates a record of it or tells someone, they are not observing it in real time. They know what will happen.

Your argument breaks down because you are claiming that you could decide what to do and Jesus would see whatever you decide 2000 years ago. The problem is that this is like claiming that you could watch someone turn left, tell someone about it, and they would still have the option to turn right. Your argument is inherently illogical, but you claim miracles make it OK. Magic is not an acceptable answer to paradox

3 years, 7 months ago

your thinking of it as this timeline: first jesus thinks, then I act; in reality it is: I act and jesus sees. so if I chose right, jesus would say "right" and likewise if I chose left, hr would say "left". you should understand now, unless your rufusing to think about what I'm saying. if so your probably say "I'm not refusing to understand, what your saying doesn't make sence, and is flawed" my responses to your questions are not flawed and I'm guessing you'd a smart person who should understand this.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

That still doesn't answer the basic question. If Jesus said you were going to turn left, do you actually have a choice? Could you choose to turn right, or do you only have the illusion of a choice?

3 years, 7 months ago
Freyja
replied to...

I think mentioning Jesus prophesying that something will happen 2000 years in the future counts as mentioning "prophets". It's the same idea, I think you just didn't want to address it before.

3 years, 7 months ago

this is the first time you said anything about prophets. the prophets were not speaking the prophets because they knew the future, but more like instruments of God. God was telling them what he saw, and giving them the grace to say it. without God the prophets were ordinary people. the prophets were predictions of the future the way we see it, but live actions to an out if time God.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

You are again failing to respond to what I am saying and choosing to respond to what you wish I was saying. At no point did I say Jesus makes you turn left. I said that if Jesus knew you were going to turn left 2000 years ago, you don't really have a choice. Either he was wrong, or you will turn left. You believe you have a choice, but you can't choose anything but what he said you would.

Prophecy only works if the future is fixed. Otherwise our decisions change things. Even if you justify Jesus being able to exist both inside and outside time, what about those who came before him how made prophecies? Jesus fulfilled them, but someone had to see the future to make them originally. That means the future was fixed. Joseph's father could not have chosen a different wife, because otherwise the future wouldn't work out to fit the prophecies. He may have thought he could choose, but if he really had a choice, the prophecies weren't true since he could have made them wrong.

Were all of the Jews who made the prophecies Jesus fulfilled also part of God and outside time, or is the future fixed despite our illusion of choice?

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

You don't have to describe God, you just have to explain how prophecy is possible if people have free will. Instead you are hiding from the question and running away.

3 years, 7 months ago

we've already discussed what we can. to go further in this debate I'd have to explain God to you, which is impossible.

3 years, 7 months ago

Jesus only knows who will turn left by divinely seeing people turning left, not making them. your going about as to try to understand God. this, jesus having a human and divine will is a mystery, and I can't answer it. neither can you answer or disprove it. I will not debate further on this subject as it is pointless to debate something we can't find the answer to.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

He existed in our past. If he knew then what you would do, you do not have a choice. Where are you getting lost in this line of reasoning?

Whether Jesus' brain exists outside time or not is irrelevant to the fact that his foreknowledge of current events prove that there was no choice other than what he knew then. If he told one of his disciples that you were going to turn left, no matter whether you believe you have a choice, your own faith says you have to turn left since he can't be wrong. Whether he could think outside time somehow doesn't change the fact that, since his words and actions existed in time, and he had all knowledge of every event, all events are set.

3 years, 7 months ago

that's like saying "could you do anything other then your doing" since you can only do one thing, no.
but jesus only knows what we are doing. for us it seems he is predicting the future, but for jesus's divine knowledge there is no past, present or future.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

That doesn't address the problem, it avoids it. Could you do anything other than what Jesus knew you would do?

3 years, 7 months ago

again you don't know it but your trying to explain God, your trying to make God smaller then you.

Jesus's divine will was with the Father sering things outside of time and such.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

So Jesus knew what you would argue in this debate 2000 years ago? In that case, you do not have a choice. You have the illusion of choice. You cannot choose to do anything but what Jesus knew you would choose. Otherwise, Jesus would be wrong, and you don't believe that is possible.

3 years, 7 months ago

Jesus being Divine and man, having two wills, and seing the beatific vision while doing earthly things,I will admit I'd not logical. that is why we call it a mystery, because we don't know how this is possible, we only know it is true.

so was jesus in time? he was on the earth, doing earthly things inside of time. was he outside of time? he could see what his apostles would do, and still knew all, including the future in time.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Now we get to you being unable to use logic to argue your case and defaulting to magic to solve an impossible problem. Your position is indefensible to any reasonable argument, so you have given up on defending it with reason.

I understand that real life is far more important than debates so don't worry about it.

3 years, 7 months ago

wow, we have a lot of debates going on right now, I have to study for a test, so I can't respond today. I'll try to respond as soon as I can. just letting you know, so you don't accuse me of running away.

3 years, 7 months ago

you realize what you just said was nonsense right? he was a part of God. his human actions were divine because he is god. you cannot separate the two.

3 years, 7 months ago

now we get into the mystery of jesus being fully man (inside of time) and fully divine (outside of time). he is both. so while his human actions were held by time, his divine actions were not. Jesus saw all God saw, he was 1 with the Father, he had the beatific vision while doing things on earth.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

God can know everything without disturbing free will because he is outside of time. That is your argument. Jesus was not outside if time. Either Jesus didn't know everything or your argument is invalid.

3 years, 7 months ago

what? I don't follow what your saying. are you saying jesus being on earth disproves free will?? cause that doesn't make sence.

3 years, 7 months ago
Aditya04
replied to...

you are right

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

No, you have again argued that God doesn't have to make sense. That IS a cop out. You are saying that you don't need to explain how Jesus can exist in time with all knowledge but God's knowledge is not deterministic because he is outside of time since God is magic. Jesus was within time and space. For it to be true that he knew everything then at the very least from that point on everything is determined. If his knowledge could not be wrong, every action that will ever be taken was known to a man 2000 years ago. This means that, while you believe you can choose a, b, c, or d, really you can only choose c because that is what Jesus knew 2000 years ago. You are not free to choose other things because that would make Jesus wrong which, by your own religious dogma, is impossible.

3 years, 7 months ago

God can do whatever the hell he wants.
by an ants logic, are we logical? I think not.

but really, God isn't that illogical, rather logical if you open your mind to his revalations. the way I've explained free will and God makes sence.

3 years, 7 months ago

except we don't defy all logic and reason. if your argument were true then God does.

3 years, 7 months ago

it's not that I'm saying " no one can understand" I've explained why you can't understand. do you think an ant can understand how we think? same think. a lower being can't understand how a much higher, more complex being thinks.

3 years, 7 months ago

to say that I knew how God's mind works would be heresy. is much as I would love to know how God works fully, I can't. it's not a cop out, it's the truth.

3 years, 7 months ago
progressive
replied to...

That just avoided the question

3 years, 7 months ago

it's a pretty lame argument when you say no one can understand and that means you must be right. that isn't an argument, its a cop out. it's avoiding making an argument.

3 years, 7 months ago

to fully understand an atemporal mind, you must fully understand God. for us humans to fully understand God, we must fit him inside our brains. we can't do this because God is bigger then us. what we can do us look at what the church, and saints have said, and have faith in that. this is pretty easy because objections are easily explained, like free will, and an omipresent God.

3 years, 7 months ago
progressive
replied to...

I'm still curious how an atemporal mind works?

3 years, 7 months ago

the saints have always taught jesus had full knowledge on earth, along with the beatific vision. Jesus saw all His Father saw, and likewise the Father to Him.

3 years, 7 months ago

you right, I mixed up God and didn't.

first as for God changing things making things different, you right. let's say now we have choice a,b,c or d. if God set up the universe different we would have choice 1, 2, 3, or 4. so we see we still have choices, but they are different choices in different places.

3 years, 7 months ago
progressive
replied to...

How exactly does an atemporal mind or action work

3 years, 7 months ago

Alex,
You have had this conversation with me and a few others, and in your summary here you have still failed to account for some factors.

If God created everything knowing beforehand everything that would ever happen, the conditions with which he created it determined every action that follows from it. The reasoning behind this is simple. Had he created it slightly differently, different events would have happened. Thus the manner in which he created the universe defined everything that would ever happen.

The argument that God can be all knowing since he us outside of time runs into problems with the fact that God has not always been outside of time. Jesus was the son of God and, as defined by the Catholic Church, he is one of three aspects of God. He is exactly as knowledgeable and powerful as all three are the same being. This means that one of two things has to have been true. Either Jesus was not God when he was on earth, which is inconsistent with both his quotes and the church's dogma, or Jesus had all knowledge whole he was here. This defies your explanation of God's knowledge being extra-temporal.

3 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

I think you misread the comment. He was saying that God did create everything.

3 years, 7 months ago

and what did God not create?

3 years, 7 months ago

that's why I'm explaining this to you, because you are new.
here are the verses.

Psalm 139 "Where can I go from your Spirit?... All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
Colossians 1:15-17 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
2 Timothy 1:9 "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."
Titus 1:2 "A faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

3 years, 7 months ago
progressive
replied to...

How does God think or perform actions. by definition those would be temporal

3 years, 7 months ago
progressive
replied to...

What verse says god is outside of time

3 years, 7 months ago
progressive
replied to...

Wait first of this is the first time you've ever explained anything to me I'm a new user here. but didn't God create everything

3 years, 7 months ago

sure I will again.
know that we are inside of time, time constructs us. God is outside of time, he can be seeing multiple time periods at once. in this way his all-knowing is formed. but it is not like predicting the future, but seeing what is happening in the present. for God there is no past, present or future. they are all one.

in this way God sees our actions as we chose them, and does not determine.

3 years, 7 months ago
progressive
replied to...

Would you mind explaining to me how their compatible?

3 years, 7 months ago

I think you have been ignoring me.

3 years, 7 months ago

im going to ask you to tell me why christain God and free will is possible, since I've told you already.

3 years, 7 months ago

because your explanation doesn't make sense. you ignore our arguments about how the two aren't compatible. but ignoring us doesn't make you right.

3 years, 7 months ago

how come after I explain this to you many times in the past few months, you still don't understand?

3 years, 7 months ago

how can it be? God can't be omniscient in regards to the future if free will exists. There can be no divine plan if free will actually exists.

3 years, 7 months ago
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