The debate "The fact that France rejected Le Pen and the US didnt reject Trump shows how stupid America is" was started by
May 7, 2017, 4:13 pm.
10 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 12 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
thereal posted 2 arguments, neveralone posted 2 arguments, MrShine posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
MrShine posted 8 arguments, neveralone posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
thereal, zediraw, M3phisto and 7 visitors agree.
MrShine, makson, neveralone, TimRSA, MrLuke, The13yearoldconservative and 6 visitors disagree.
your first paragraph, are you referring to the rates of bad practices like genital mutilation and honor killings, or the rate of terrorism? in either case I'm quite certain the rate in extremely low and similar to violence rates among other groups. id love to visit the numbers. and if the rate is low, then I will have to insist that it is just criminals and psychos being criminals and psychos.
we have not lost any culture war. the culture of the West is the dominant world wide undisputed culture champion. it isn't the American culture, or French culture, but the mishmash that is absorbing ever culture it touches. They can scream jihad all they want, Starbucks and McDonald's are unstoppable. capitalism is unstoppable. They come, they look for work, and they try to feed their families. They are just like you, chasing the American dream of success through hard work. as long as you follow the law, you should be welcome within reason. I see no increased predisposition to violence. please show me.
however many here do approve of and petition for such action here as well. it is definitely father than we have went yet, but that the possibility of that changing is not unlikely. "westerinized" are the Muslims that are actually committing these crimes. the ones who grew up in this foriegn, unintegratable culture are the ones who only praise this land, the ones who finally got relief from their fear. until they became a target at least. do you really think connecting a 99% innocent group with terrorism and murder will have no effect on them, their ability to live, work, and interact with anyone outside their now forced ghettos.
they would love to go for full citizenship if offered, regardless the criteria (realistic). refugees get to apply for citizenship after 5 years of living here. They pay taxes the entire time.
I didn't think that word would be filtered, it's pretty commonplace. a.s.s.h.o.l.e.
I don't feel these responses properly address the issues. Chalking it up to a criminal is a criminal simplifies the issue far too much. I don't believe I was brushing with broad strokes when I said there is a reason for these issues happening, and the more they happen the less isolated they seem to be.
We have lost parts of the culture war in the middle East. They may be afraid, but growing up on a culture that thrives on exploitation inevitably...? Look, I'm part Hispanic. Colombian actually, and this isn't to say the cultures are the same, but when two of my cousin's immigrated to America, they integrated just fine. Still, they have different values in Colombia, and it's obvious. If it's just values, the worst you become is an ******. To say that nobody in the culture of fear integrates it would be wrong. And these divided communities are a piece of the proof. Look for violence, and it's nowhere near hard to find.
Westernized was part of my argument, so that would be a non issue if I claimed all Muslims. I didn't, and since there have been occurances I'm pretty sure our standard would recognize a problem if the individual was raised as such. Bringing it back to our own perpetrators, we do not encourage stripping people down, bringing the argument in this direction is misleading about America's laws.
I don't think a watchlist and the right to bear arms are exclusive, all guns or no guns is stupid.
So unless we argue names of groups, it's okay because failing to gain control justifies who we arm, even if in retrospect they shouldn't have been.
Lastly, this shifts from the fleeing successes to their families. There are innocents, sure. There is a responsibility, sure. But this gets too close into motive and less about confronting the issues that will destroy these countries. Why be a migrant when you can try for full citizenship? Become a person under the eyes of taxes and further vetting, pledge your allegiance, if it is between family and country and you must choose family... very circumstantial in the first place.
obviously doctors don't post their procedures on Facebook, but they are marked in the patients medical record as well as financial documents to mark business income and other necessary paperwork. this was never documented medically or financially. this was under the table religious work. the patient is a child and this is a crime.
what happens to foreigners in their land is on the head of their dictator who chooses laws on his whim. I fail to see how this places any blame on the people fleeing his rule. and of course things affect the culture, but usually in subtle, general ways. in an oppressive nation, the culture becomes one of fear, not one rooting for more oppression.
I'm not defending honor killing but are you really going to say that their bottom of the barrel standard of law is what we should compare ourselves to? honor killings are wrong but just like genital mutilation, we have millions of Muslims here... no honor killings. so, also non issue. the stripping was uncalled for in a western society that I would hope we I'll both agree should be held to a higher standard than a 3rd world dictatorship.
there are thousands of people on terrorist watch lists, most don't become terrorist. this is a bit of a tangent but I'm confused, does your segment of the right want to detain all of these people indefinitely or ensure they have the ability to legally buy guns (the no fly list debate) cause these 2 policies seem contradictory.
we supported some groups, but they haven't won. so asking how they fared at government is a bit premature.
international doctors go there to fulfill humanitarian roles and a greater good, they don't usually bring their families and young children. local doctors flee with their families for the greater good of getting their children and families out of there. its all about perspective, situations, and priorities. neither is wrong, both can be right. do you place higher value on strangers or your children/parents?
Whoops, color change.
Proceedings are done with patient confidentiality, it isn't as though these things are advertised. Secrecy or not, it is a practice shown in a profession, not a whim of cutting things off.
America is more of a non issue in this context, I agree.
The laws are a part of injustice for everyone, but can we say that this doesn't affect culture at all? The standards would be different at the very least, and just because everyone gets shit on doesn't mean it isn't a culture that allows someone to get one or ten up. I did say the circumstances would be reversed in their homeland, and wouldn't anyone travelling to another country possibly carry part of those expectations? That it can't be visible?
Culture stripping insofar as the law should demand. Murder is unacceptable, but in some places honorkillings are allowed. no matter how far you agree on self defense, killing to protect honor is not self defense. Going for the hijab is some low fruit.
Not expecting perfection, not saying you brought up mental illness. But what I am saying is that their capacity as a human seems normal, and the terrorists that convert or find a way shouldn't be acceptable. Conflating the insane (which does not cover all, I agree) doesn't quite fit the bill. They are rational, and in plenty of cases smart.
I can't claim lone Wolfman on any of them, just the extent of their crimes. However, isn't it somewhat odd how these people that end up on watchlists are never stopped or have any consequences until a crime is committed? I wouldn't doubt there should be some distinction, and a countries responsibility isn't to everyone but it's own people.
So we haven't funded groups to remove terrorist groups, to have those terrorist groups replace the terrorists? And these countries tries aren't impoverished, but they can't even care for their own people. At this point, it's saying they can't rule a country, isn't it? Installing a government back only disturbed the order, like the sick man of Turkey.
The doctor refugee seems to be on a predestined path with no choice. He is unable to provide any support in his country, and he is unwilling to leave his country behind for good. A country that doesn't receive help from it's own people will fail, eventually. If his country doesn't need his help, why does the fighting last so long, why do doctors willingly go to these regions (rather crazy of them, but I can't deny them what is theirs)?
people who do the genital mutilation do hide. there was a recent case where a doctor was arrested for doing these procedures, it was all under the table and secret. but if it isn't secret that just makes it easier to prosecute.
we agree that we should blame only the individual and in America the number of cases is miniscule compared to the population of Muslims. so this is not an issue in this regard.
their lands are dictatorships without freedom. I don't think we can draw comparisons specially since their own people face equally harsh injustice there as well. those are not democratically imposed laws, so once again, I don't think you are assigning blame properly.
culture stripping as in law?! I don't understand. would you be equally ok if this was a nun who practices equivalent modesty? an orthodox jew? any women who wishes to remain covered for personal or even medical reasons. and we have treated women in equally bad ways until they fought for their rights. they just need an environment in which they will feel safe to speak rather than outsiders forcing their choices. once again, children require enforcement, adults require passive enabling. I never said mental illness, and you bring up radicalization without answering whether these are damaged people or just a few Trojan horses? what is the number that go violent vs normal people? how does that number compare to the rest of us? their human, you can't expect perfection, judge them relative to yourself, not some ideal. white people shoot up churches, mosques, children's schools, Timothy McVeigh, Charles Manson, the unibomber... we are all equally human with crazy/evil individuals amongst us. let's look at the full numbers if we must generalize.
the doctor has nowhere to go, this isn't an impoverished nation in need to specialists and talent. this is people fleeing a power hungry madman. what rebel group has won and had such an opportunity? and I hope you mean a people's rebel movement, not terrorist thugs looking to be new kings.
well to start out with u made an argument that said Trump should be president
"no, historybuff. just no. 12 year olds do not give a flying f*** about politics in any deepr OR shallow sense."
didn't u say kids do have an interest? from an earlier post.
"Lol youre offended by him lying? thats rich coming from a hillary supporter LOL! And when has he lied? if anything, hes too honest for you cancerous liberals because he always speaks his mind. Youre so stupid its shocking, especially when Hillary is the one known for deceiving those stupid enough to support her. Jesus."
"On a more positive note, trump is proposing a new law which allows family members to prevent a woman from having an abortion so thats good."
also your thread titled "trump should be president " that I bumped up and will likely be anonymous soon because trolls are cowards and your a troll.
Shine, you f***ed your siblings so shut up.
Neveralone, quote me then. Quote me.
that would probably be best but he used to actually debate. that was a long time ago but hey he might try again.
Don't feed the troll, anger is another form of fear. He lacks control over himself because he fears being irrelevant.
Give him that.
that's interesting since all ur arguments before Trump got into office was in his defense.
The examples should be blamed as individuals, I don't argue for blaming everyone. But as it stands, these practices have been seen the same as circumcision in the East, and that doesn't change. These examples are not like rapists or murderers that will hide after their crimes... well, in Sweden, some didnt hide after rape.
I would like there to be a noted issue with the disproportionate examples of communities, because just the same, it can be pulled through a filter of "different definition" "lone wolf" or otherwise. I won't discount punishment of any Western officer as it is morally wrong, and our laws stand by that. If the circumstances were reversed with a western in their lands, I have doubts as to if any punishment would be done.
The America status with geography is good, no doubt, when it comes to people attempting to arrive by themselves. I don't have full faith in vetting, but again, addressing the people that radicalized in foreign lands (yes, even American born) it can't just be a case of mental illness. These were bad people, and something gave them the opportunity to reveal themselves.
Culture stripping insofar as following the law. Honor killing some boy because he stopped sexual assaults isn't the way, and neither is treating women as second class citizens (antecdotal, I know, but examples are out there. There is a cultural basis, and saying there is no culture excuses the next)
A doctor doesn't need to be on the front line. A doctor can treat the wounded. Though there is danger, keeping a country can be difficult. I do not oppose anyone willing to immigrate permanently and change nationalities.Engineers build too.
There can be dissent, but why has no rebel group once in power brought peace even within their own lands?
No, shine and neveralone i wasnt "Trump's biggest supporter on this app", you complete goatf***, and i never claimed to be either. What you said about Le Pen also shows that you all know f*** all about French politics.
they do occur, but this is a nation of hundreds of millions, with millions of Muslims. the fact that tends or a few hundred cases of genital mutilation happen over the course of years is some thing that should be enforced and punished, but hardly anything that can be attributed to the people as a whole. blame the individuals, shame them, punish them. just them.
I'm not sure what your second paragraph is trying to say, seems like the same thing I said. some isolated communities, plenty of mixed communities too, esp in cities, but all mostly peaceful with criminal examples from all. the fact that they dress differently is their choice and it's not like we have to cover up for them. that French police guy forcing the Muslim women to strip was disgusting.
America is the exception but not by accident but by geography. Which is why I try to point out the different between America taking a few thousand after a year of vetting and hand picking is different than the million man conundrum Europe must deal with. definitely no vacuum, but like I said. is it refugees doing the attacks or Trojan horse militants? If militants, what is their goal? and do you want to give them this gift.
also, do you not think "strong" rhetoric and public stripping of a woman from a culture of modesty will not create varying degrees of unease among people who did nothing wrong, and inspire (as it has across the us) people to hate innocent people based on race or religion.
there is no need to distinguish, can i assume you do believe that most of those people are good family people with similar goals and that Trojan horses, if they exist, are few?
America isn't depriving these nations of anything. doctors and engineers won't fix a mad king dropping bombs on his people. the point is the enemy wants them, and doing what the enemy wants is rarely good. the fact that they could be a boon for us as well is a separate issue.
the Arab spring was all about peaceful vocal dissent. that improves they prefer it when they feel it is safe to do so. Syria is why they often avoided open dissent. their homes and families got bombed for it. they are as peaceful as you and me, and any Arab or Muslim you happen to know in your real life who you feel is an excellent example is just average Joe, a family man, just like as the same percentage as any other culture on earth.
I didn't say the practices weren't illegal, the point is that they have occured in the countries they travel to. Integration, in part, would be following the law.
integration doesn't mean giving up their own culture either. Then again, should we make any mention of swedish issues in migrant issues they are only acknowledged through a filter and different distinctions of what makes up a statistics. Notice how migrant communities stay apart from the communities they enter, and it isn't because they are forced apart or believe they are equal.
I suppose depending on who we define can put the statistic at zero, but ignoring the radicalization of individuals by such areas, cultures, etc. cannot be blamed on America or the lone gunman. Florida? Boston? San Bernardino? These didn't happen in a vacuum, and there are underlying factors that can't be denied. If we go to other countries, we notice that the country in question, Paris, has had issues. If we even accept that the number in America is zero, it is the exception, not the rule.
These people are not blamed for the attacks. Blame comes with heavy sentencing and in some cases capital punishment. We can recognize a demographic will cause issues, again, denial does not solve any of the concerns around a series of killings involving trucks, guns, honor killings, and the sort. We cannot blame everyone, but we would be disillusioned if we believed we could distinguish better.
Any Western defectors to Isis didn't grow up brainwashed, and I don't believe you'd deny these middle eastern regions have groups prone to brainwashing.. Why would that not apply in migrant cases. Even better, these architects and doctors can aid in the fight against these terrible people if they are competent enough to do so. Why should America deprive these countries of the only people that can get them back on their feet?
It might not be black and white in terms of fighters, but at some point stealing food to survive and suicide by cop can't be equivalent. At some point those driven to their own culture in hardships should be the replacing, stable culture that allows their country to survive. Of course I believe Western integration is important because the underlying values allow dissent without harming others.
Even if some cultural practices are illegal, we still hear about it enough for us to be disgusted with it. It is rational, and unfair to turn a blind eye to what destabilizes these regions and further causes issues in others.
bad practices change with time once freedom is obtained, many of those nations oppress group, from women to minority religious denominations... much as we used to do. eventually those groups demand rights when their voice is enabled. however certain practices like genital mutilation is illegal regardless of religion here in the US. that should be enforced, at least for minors.
specific horrible rituals aside, idc about integration, I don't see why you would. as long as they don't commit any crimes, who cares. there are numerous examples of subcultures in the US that live with themselves and are vastly different from each other. surfers and Amish, Mormons and hipsters, coast to cost different people's fill this nation.
I don't see how unwillingness to integrate promotes attacks. in the US, the attacks can be counted on 1 hand and don't include any migrants. on the other hand the rhetoric makes them seem like they are already terrorists, which is screwed up, especially to young minds. let's not forgot all the Americans going to Isis to fight. there were more of them than the attacks, and they were mostly white! your blaming millions for the actions of 4 isolated idiots.
and it's not that they will become terrorist fighters. that's super black and white. they will make a home, and I doubt they will go back to Assad. now Isis will get some fighters, probably from their brain washed children. but they will also get doctors, engineers, labor, capability for infrastructure building and officially brandishing the title of state once again.
is that not victory for them?
is that not a very likely scenario?
It isn't as though these things exist with a lack of risk, I think we can agree on some ground that failure to integrate these individuals plays a role. Female genital Mutilation and Truck drivers say at least a little about this, and if these areas that have been in turmoil for longer than even the US, and blame the US for nearly every issue (not to say that we are blameless). I would say that ignoring there is a problem doesn't make it go away.
I am a man, and returning them to their nation would ideally be once the issue is resolved. Is there not surrounding countries that share their culture, and willing to have a peaceful discourse? In the past I might have argued setting up camps as no country should be forced to take them in, but it would make plenty more sense that these countries, should they want to assist do so to keep unnecessary casualties as you might say.
However, the idea that turning these people back will foster Is support is somewhat weak. Are these people so willing to resort to terrorism because of this? If an unwillingness to integrate, at least for the time being in Western countries, hasn't that seemed to provoke these attacks? Portraying that situation fails to humanize the desperate that turn to terrorism, because terrorists are terrible people through and through! If someone turns into a terrorist because they weren't accepted into a vacation program in the US, I won't feel sorry for them, I'd be glad they didn't show up.
This is of course assuming the worst in people, because the worst has occured, and saying it occurs in a vacuum denies the current climate. It isn't that there aren't good people, I bet many people try. But there are people who aren't saints, and once groups of nonsaints organize or decide to commit acts of terror by whatever means, we get these recurring events.
But, of course, we can't deny the border situation is different. They are right next to everything, do they need tighter security, maybe? This shouldn't be normal, and the way it seems, people will say it is.
I'm going to assume your going to insist on some form of nimby, if I'm wrong, then we agree.
if you are for sending them back, do you mind if I make my argument by asking you questions and see what conclusion you reach?
once these people return to their nation (assuming everyone says nimby), what choices do they face in their reality between Isis with their strict but evenly enforced laws (assuming your male) or Assad who bombed them for asking for a decent shot at regular meals. what will you choose?
how will they feel about the narrative Isis has been telling them about how the west will reject them after the west rejected? who would you turn to assuming you are in their shoes with their concerns and priorities?
how will this play out in the long term global power and security dynamic?
Europe's situation with the refugees is very different from the US. refugees are pouring directly over their border.
do you recommend they build detention camps or use force to turn them away?
do you feel that will make France and the world safer in the long run?
I always knew something was up with him! Never alone is right, this guy isn't just saying crap to get people frustrated, he genuinely doesn't believe what he's saying. Did he forget to log out of his troll account?
Also, I've heard an unclear picture of LePen. Half of which does put her in a better boat than her opponent, the other as continued establishment. France hasn't been vetting like they should, or at least fails to recognize they have a problem by calling the multicultural truck "part and parcel". Since I understand LePen was willing to admit there is a problem, no matter what the approach may be, is better than denial. The problem can only be solved by working on it.
I did believe when you ignore legitimate criticisms, fears, and start labeling various groups on a political spectrum with the same brush of racist, sexist, homophobic, and so on that alienating the public was inevitable. It wasnt that people were stupid, they weren't acknowledged. Which puts them in favor with a liar that will at least lie to them instead of a denier that only stands with themselves. Where was the effort to gain half the country's favor when they were willing to listen? I didn't see it.
those are two different nations with different needs and wants. also were u not Trump's biggest supporter on this app?