The debate "The government shut down was Democrat's fault and was won by Republicans" was started by
January 24, 2018, 2:16 pm.
4 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 4 people are on the disagree side.
There needs to be more votes to see what the common perception is.
There is a tie in this debate, post your arguments, call some reinforcements and break this tie.
Slymcfly posted 7 arguments to the agreers part.
Nemiroff posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
Slymcfly, trump, chasediedrich1 and 1 visitor agree.
Nemiroff, kissmyashleeyy, FrankFlank, bernie2020 disagree.
also, in addition to taxation, getting them documented would allow for enforcement of minimum wage laws and standards eliminating any sort of employment "advantage" their abusive conditions may have.
and as I said, we should be investing more in our education so that our children won't need to compete for "entry level" jobs.
and about that political packing, you guys really don't know the other side. Hispanic people are the majority of Christians in the world. devote, conservative, hard on drugs, family values #1. the only thing keeping them democrat is right wing xenophobia. politically, democrats are setting themselves up for ruin.
I do think it's a problem that much of our citizenry is doing grunt level work, but I kinda blame republicans cutting budgets for that.
that aside, aren't we at record level empoyment levels? what's the threat? if anything the problem is outsourcing and coal country only having one industry... which made jobs vanish, not get stolen.
what exactly did the immigrants steal? sure they take so underpaid jobs in terrible conditions, but they also eat, need a home, stuff, more stores, more jobs. people create demand, creating jobs. that's why population is a positive, not a negative. as long as we don't go too crazy, we should grow big time. make them build whole new cities!
I disagree. Immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, have overall caused the economy to suffer because of all of the resources they use, and the fact that they pay little, if any, federal tax. Also, we are WAY oversaturated when it comes to entry-level work. We don't need more people coming here to work entry-level jobs when we have our own people struggling to find work and make ends meet. I'd be willing to pay $3.50 for a head of lettuce if it meant that we were hiring LEGAL immigrants and other Americans and paying them appropriately. There's no way whatsoever that you can cite that illegal and legal immigrants contribute more than they take in benefits. The number isn't even close. I have read DOZENS of books and nonpartisan research papers on this EXACT subject.
I must have misunderstood you on what to do with The Dreamer's family members. However, that's what I WANT. They have absolutely no right to be here. You don't get to just follow your relatives through borders. It doesn't work that way in any other country, and it doesn't work that way here. That's not how it works. And again, it DRASTICALLY changes voting patterns and can literally change the outcome of votes. That is asking WAY TOO MUCH. Even the 800,000 is asking too much, but it would be inhumane to send them back when they came here through no fault of their own. Their relatives on the other hand? They made the conscious decision to violate our borders and our laws, and should be punished for doing so. They don't get to just hop over here because they have relatives here and our borders touch. Again, that isn't the way it works.
what is this importing people? I smell fake news.
I never said to deport anyone, the whole "chain migration" thing is seperate about new immigrants. I don't want to deport anyone who hasn't committed a violent crime. I want them to live here (as they have for decades) but documented. dreamer or old man.
I don't think they should get citizenship tho, or at least have to wait an extended period of time for it. I don't think citizenship should just be handed out at the door, especially the back door, and is very different from documentation.
I don't think immigrants are bad for the economy, and I think we should make immigration easier (not the screening) so that people actually don't have to sneak across. that way 100% of the people on the border are actual criminals and enforcement becomes easy.
Nemirof thank you for actually posting something REAL. I can probably agree with you on that. We would have to first deport the family members, and then MAYBE we can put them toward the front of the line so they don't have to wait more than a few years to come back. However, it drastically changed America, especially when it comes to votes. So that is something I am a little bit apprehensive on accepting. Even Hillary's right hand woman said that they were going to IMPORT new voters in. Because apparently they've completely given up on trying to change people's minds. Because most Americans stopped falling for her BS.
heck I don't even care about the pathway to citizenship. I just want the people out of the shadows and properly (like anyone else, not excessively) policed and taxed. I also want them to be able to report crimes and seek medical care.
I'm pretty sure the family thing isn't up for debate but I don't see the negative in giving families a priority and reuniting them assuming equivalent screening. having family already here helps people adapt and usually leads to better assimilation and success here.
Historybuff if you are seriously trying to tell me that Republicans are the obstructionists, then God help you and your insanely awry logic. The Republicans didn't put it in this budget bill, because the budget bill only goes through about the first week of February. An decision on DACA doesn't need to be made until MARCH, and guess what?? Republicans will come to an agreement with Democrats, as long as Democrats don't, yet again, INSIST on allowing all The Dreamer's family members to stay. It's really not that complicated. Almost all of America wants the Dreamers to stay. Just NOT the average of 6 people that each one of them brought with them. That is called chain-migration, and it's something that nearly 70% of Americans are against.
Okay Historybuff, you've made it exponentially clear that you dislike and disappove of Trump and his competency to be our president. But you know what? It's time to get over it, dude. He was elected by the electoral process, the way presidents have done before him, and he is now your president whether you like it or not. I didn't even vote for.Trump, I voted for Cruz, who is FAR TO THE RIGHT of Donald Trump on almost ALL policy. Hell, even Bill Clinton was far to the right of Trump's policies and opinions, ESPECIALLY on immigration. Don't believe me? Listen to Clinton's Immigration address from 1994(If I'm remembering that year correctly), and you can hear for yourself. If you think Trump is a racist because of his immigration views, I'd love to know what you'd consider Bill Clinton....
and let's not forget that trump couldn't negotiate his way out of a cardboard box on policy issues because he doesn't know anything. he changes his mind every 5 minutes like a toddler because he can't understand the issue and has to go with the opinions of everyone around him.
they want the Republicans to pass something that is desperately needed. something the president told them to do when he removed the DACA protections. something the president agreed to just before the shutdown.
the reason the government shut down is because Republicans are unwilling to compromise, ever. they have become the party of obstruction. they will get exactly what they want or they will cry about it.
That would still be the Democrats. They REFUSED to pass a budget(until Monday) without A DACA resolution. That doesn't sound like them holding up the government because they don't want to "rubber stamp" anything republicans want....doesn't sound that way to me even a little bit...
you seem to confusing cause and fault. icy conditions can cause a crash, but it is the driver not taking enough care who is at fault.
the Democrats caused the shutdown by not rubber stamping whatever the Republicans want, but they aren't supposed to do that.
the fault lies with those who won't negotiate, or who will negotiate but change their mind 5 minutes after they agree to something.
As a conservative, I'm ALL for keeping DACA and giving these people a pathway to citizenship (NOT amnesty for all). As long as we aren't taking in their entire families. The average of 6 family members that DACA recipients brought here, need to go back home.
Actually, when Obamacare was passed, a lot of Dems in the House and Senate admitted to not even reading it. That is a really big deal. Also, even Chuck Schumer is now admitting that Dems shut the government down, and that they opened the government back up because, as he stated, Americans love DACA, but they don't want the government shut down over it. also, Schultz came on MSNBC and stated that THEY shut the government down, and in return, they won "the potential for momentum", which is the most insane, ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. Every inanimate object on planet Earth has the "potential for momentum", that just means nothing. It means Democrats won nothing.
as for victory, from a partisan perspective it's too early to tell, all that was got was 6 weeks, at which points democrats can repeat with new validation to not trust republicans.
all the discussions have been behind closed doors and we are only going on he said he said with Schumer and McConnel saying opposite things... that's what happens when the press is not given access.
the democrats are pushing a policy issue into a budget discussion, but the republicans have been acting like a 1 party system using controversial rules to push simple majority legislations giving democrats few other options.
I still remember the outcry of party politics when democrats passed Obama care after months of open debate and tons of Republican input and modifications. bunch of hypocrits.