The debate "The US government is trying to start another war in the middle east" was started by
June 14, 2019, 7:49 pm.
16 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 24 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
historybuff posted 12 arguments, Nemiroff posted 7 arguments to the agreers part.
historybuff, Nemiroff, PG, Communistguy and 12 visitors agree.
JDAWG9693, kingofrubik, hollieg, Threelip, swara, fireball4thewin, boispendaddy, Deat and 16 visitors disagree.
well that is the Joys of capitalism. one of those murderous, militant, Islamic, terrorist nations is buying lots of weapons from us.
but that being said, both parties are equally untrustworthy. and with the limited intelligence at lay people's disposal, it is impossible to make a honest opinion.
Agreed. It is possible that Iran is guilty. But since trump put several Iran hawks in his cabinet how could anyone ever trust them? They have been pushing for war with Iran for years. They will take any excuse they can find to trigger an invasion.
It's also a weird side note to me that they want to invade a murderous, militantly religious, funder of terrorism (iran) but want to be best friends with a different murderous, militantly religious, funder of terrorism (Saudi Arabia).
it's really hard to tell in these international incidents what to do as a common person with minimal intel.
we have reports that sailors saw something flying. others say they saw a Iranian mine. but if your gonna frame someone you would use a their weapons. I dont trust trump and his hawkish administration. I dont trust Iran cause I believe they would do it and then deny it. just like with Iraq, it's hard to make a decision without the benefit of hindsight.
New update: reportedly diplomats at the UN are aware of a "massive" bombing attack being planned on Iran. If this is true and they carry this out, it will be war. And make no mistake it will drag your country into another quagmire that you won't be able to escape.
just to add to this. Below is an article. The secretary of state keeps saying the US "always [has] authorization to defend American economic interests," when describing attacks on ships that are not american. Also note that the countries who do own those ships are not calling for retaliation against Iran. He keeps repeating that they are reviewing military options and are sending more troops to the middle east.
Now a republican senator is calling for a "retaliatory military strike". So basically, he wants to attack Iran and trigger a war. He also doesn't think that they need to consult congress about that. They can just bomb them and start a war without any check from congress.
The US is trying to convince people they have reasonable grounds to invade Iran. They are going to ratchet up tensions until something bad happens. Then when something bad does happen, they will attack. Unless republicans grow a spine the US is likely headed for war.
sad but true.
as to the Israel topic, I'll stop distracting this topic and start a new one, or if you like to start one of your own, feel free.
I find it depressing that so many people would disagree and yet have no way to refute what I said. It is a sad reflection of the modern world that people simply won't question their own information bubble.
Again, I'm not pointing directly at Israel. But they have carried out targeted bombings to undermine Iran in the past. It is not unreasonable to believe they might bomb a ship instead of a car.
I'm not sure what other accusations you have heard about Israel. I would agree they aren't on the same level of Iran, which regularly funds and supports terrorism in the region. But I don't view Israel very kindly. I can sympathize with their situation, specifically that all their neighbors want them dead. But frankly, I don't think their country should ever have been there in the 1st place.
If you would like to debate Israel I would be open to that.
I just feel that Israel, which is guilty of certain things, is unfairly judged by many on the left. it isnt guilt free, but many accusations go too far or ignore many facts about the situation.
I agree with you regarding Iran, it is suspicious, but I feel pointing straight at israel feeds into a false left wing anti Israel narrative, which imo is a thing. as I said, I only chased this tangent due to a lack of on topic activity and a passion for this topic.
the left wing narrative against Israel isnt completely wrong, but it is selective and exxagerated.
We seem to be sliding off topic. My point was not to point the blame in any one direction. My point was that many other countries have a history of taking actions like this. And they have things to gain by Iran being blamed for these attacks. But Iran doesn't seem to gain anything by doing this.
The US is now planning military responses to this against Iran.
as to isreals connection to the tanker... that's quite a theory, especially since I haven't heard any mention of isreal in reporting. do you have any evidence?
were there any nuclear scientists or targets of interest involved? I don't see the logical isreal connection at all. please explain.
They arent engaging in active military warfare, but they have been engaging in persistent hostilities for some time. Its hard to not see the threat when numerous leaders (often military) reiterate that the destruction of isreal is non negotiable.
He may have been a civilian, but he was a civilian who was implicitly enabling a nuclear Hezbollah. A massive contribution to the nations military capabilities. This wasnt random civilian killing. It was an assassination.
Is your issue the way they carried out the assassination? The choice of targets? I may agree on some of the methodology complaints, but the overall action seems within reason for a lukewarm war.
I think Iran has demonstrated its support for bombing civilian locations as well, except unlike isreal they support mass casualties, not select assassinations.
It may not be called a war, but it is war. And as far as nukes go, a legitamete fight for survival. You bend some rules to survive.
If you aren't at war with someone, how can anything, let alone a civilian scientist be considered a legitimate target? Especially for a car bombing?
The dates of the bombings I found were: 12 January 2010, 29 November 2010 and 11 January 2012. In January 2015 they claim to have prevented another assassination.
They also murdered others that weren't using bombs.
But whether or not Israel uses terrorism wasn't really my point. My point is that they have proven they are willing to set of bombs at civilian locations to further their political goals. I don't think there is any evidence they were involved in the bombing of the Japanese ship, but they have a more logical reason to carry out the attack than Iran does.
on the one hand, Netanyahu's administration is insane and is vilifying Iran beyond reason.
on the other hand, they are already villainous enough within reason. Iran has and continued to support terrorists who explicitly target Israel. they could even be considered an unofficial arm of the Iranians military with a covert agenda, attack Israel. even as they mature to the rest of the world, to Israel they remain a source of animosity and legitamete threat.
did this attack happen during the Iran deal, or before/after? because within my lack of research, I do somewhat trust Iran's nuclear program during the deal, I dont outside of it. someone researching weapons program is a legitamete target, especially when we know one of those nukes will be "accidentally" found by hezbollah.
All right fair enough. Perhaps terrorism was a sloppy terminology. Israel has carried out bombings of civilian targets to further their own ideological and political ends. And the scientists they bombed were not in the military. They were definitely civilian targets.
Not technically terrorism as terror was not the goal, but the method and outcome are the same. And since they have proven they are not above planting bombs in foreign countries to further their goals, I don't think it is outside the realm of realism that they would bomb ships to try to undermine Iran's growing international legitimacy.
I mean 5 or 10 years ago they were seen as the "axis of evil" by much of the world. Now you have much of Europe and Japan doing deals with them. Israel directly benefits from them being excluded and seen as a terrorist state.
I wouldnt disagree that Israel attacked Iran, or that Iran has shown hostility to Israel, including direct/indirect attacks. I'm just saying it's not terrorism. assassinations, war, and even guerrilla war against military targets are not terrorism.
Israel have carried out at least 3 bombings to assassinate iranian scientists to slow down their nuclear program. Is it really any different to put a bomb on someone's car than to put a bomb on a japanese ship?
if there is no activity on topic I would like to come to Israel's defense in that terrorism claim.
It wouldn't even be the 1st time this was done. The government faked an attack in the Gulf of Tonkin to create an excuse to start a war with vietnam. Israel has carried out terrorist attacks against Iran in the past. It certainly isn't a stretch to imagine they would carry out other terrorist attacks if it harmed Iran, like say by getting the US to invade them.
Does anyone who disagreed have a reason to disagree? I have yet to see any evidence that would suggest Iran is behind the attacks. But the US government definitely wants you to think they are.
Members of the Trump government have, for some time now, been trying to ramp up a war with Iran. In particular John Bolton. The most recent cause for concern is the attack on a Japanese oil tanker. The US government immediately blamed Iran even though there doesn't appear to be any evidence of that. They released a grainy video that doesn't really show anything and claimed that it was an Iranian ship removing a mine from the side of the tanker. But the owners of ship say it wasn't a mine that hit them. They were hit by some sort of projectile. So the US government is lying about the Iranians planting a mine.
Additionally, the leader of Iran happened to be in a meeting with the leader of Japan for negotiations when the attack took place. Why would you attack a Japanese ship during your meeting with the japanese? Even if Iran was behind previous attacks, why would you choose that moment to attack a ship, let alone a Japanese ship?
Also, Iran has nothing to gain by carrying out these attacks. Attacking random shipping in their own back yard doesn't benefit them in any way. It only hardens other countries' opinions of them when they are still trying to salvage the deal that trump is trying to blow up. The attacks do not benefit Iran. They would however benefit Iran's enemies. Namely Saudi Arabia, Israel, and the US.
It is unclear who attacked the ship. But it is clear that the US is trying to use it as leverage. And given that members of the government (like bolton) have called for invasion of Iran in the past, it looks like that is the direction this is going in.