The world is full of fools who think that by killing people they will go to a paradise full of lust

June 15, 2016, 2:17 am

Agree39 Disagree27

59%
41%

The debate "The world is full of fools who think that by killing people they will go to a paradise full of lust" was started by fadi on June 15, 2016, 2:17 am. 39 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 27 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

historybuff posted 5 arguments, RogueAmerican posted 7 arguments, fadi posted 21 arguments, wdz posted 10 arguments to the agreers part.
Nemiroff posted 20 arguments, RogueAmerican posted 5 arguments, citizenzero posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.

fadi, dalton7532, Sugandha, historybuff, Bodaciouslady16, Schnuupi, TheC16, Zuhayr, wdz, phantrash55, CynicKitten, Vayney333, Qbsoon and 26 visitors agree.
Nemiroff, SwaggerPoptart, RogueAmerican, citizenzero, moneybagboyz, thereal, scrumnug, TheDebator9000 and 19 visitors disagree.

fadi
replied to...

well although iam a Christian but i live in a muslim country and i know about the subject in islam there is nasikh and mansookh that is new verses replace old ones when muhammad was still not that powerful he wrote these peaceful verses but when he had more power he wrote the new violent verses so he was able to massacre the ones who didn't believe so the ones that must be in use today are the second ones so the violent ones and thus isis is not doing anything against islam it is actually the party that is showing the right and truthful islamic beliefs isis is not wrong ideologically speaking they are the muslims following the orders of their god

2 years, 10 months ago

I have always had a question. In Surah 2:190ish, it talks about how wars and aggression are not tolerated. However, I dont understand Muhammad's military expansion nor the Rushadin Caliphate (I forgot the name if its wrong, but the first) or the ones to follow. What is the viewpoint from a Muslim's point of view?

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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yeah i know what i mean is that the is one of the most important figures in islam

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
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No. He is 2nd, only after Abu Bakr

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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he is not just a leader is a disciple of muhammad the most important religious figure in islam after muhammad according to the sunis

2 years, 10 months ago

1 example, which is no worse than the treatment numerous Christian leaders showed the jews, and probably much nicer than the Christian treatment of pagans.

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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you say that and not know that omar the islam khalif said that all jews and christians must be extradited from the Arabian Peninsula muslims were are and will always be savage brutal and inhumane

2 years, 10 months ago

comparatively Muslims have been quite nice. even isis is no worse than the inquisitors of old. even many fellow Christians fell to their fires and torture devices. in times of peace, Muslims treated others with respect unknown in the Christian middle ages.

2 years, 10 months ago

was it not a tax imposed on conquered people? that is very reasonable for the time.

I'm sure the victims of the inquisition would have loved to be forced only to pay a tax. instead it was a choice between their faith or their lives.

even aside from the inquisition, how did Christians treat non believers and pagans throughout their long history? you point at others without looking at your own past.

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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it is imposed only on nonmuslims thus it discriminatory against these groups

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
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how can it be a fee to keep their faith when women, elderly, disabled and monks/priests don't have to pay? It's a taxation on fit and able post-pubesant males which allows then to be exempt from any policing or military service, yet it is compulsory that ALL those under the state are protected by the state, whether Muslim or not

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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no you are the one who has no answer man jizya is not like zakat the main cause being let me say in arabic you give an yad o anta saghir

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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no jizya is not taxes if you are a nonmuslim then you pay it as a fee to keep your faith taxes are imposed on all people regardless of their ethnicity or their religion it is also very distinct from zakat because you are humiliated when you pay it

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
replied to...

I'm giving you plenty of answers, but you don't want to hear haha. Sadly, it's you who is the one coming back with no substance; just petty attempts at attacking any person who has a different view to things than you

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
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haha. when did I claim Jizya is the same as Zakat? To who they apply are clearly different, but the conditions which apply to the people who are required to be taxed living under the state are similar. And how would a person living under a typical tax-based government be treated if they didn't pay their taxes yet were required to do so?

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

well you don't have a way to answer me so you are slipping away that is how people simply give up and you are one of them you are not gonna cheat me by saying that jizya is the same as zakat man iam not that stupid ok

2 years, 10 months ago

Palestinian land can mean several things. do you mean the occupied territories? the entire land currently called israel? the prewar division?

I do not support the excessive reaction of the Israeli government, but I do support a reaction. and it is my opinion that the current situation was caused mainly by the actions of the grandparents(?) of the palestinians. although Israel has taken a scary turn to the right in recent years.

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
replied to...

well considering that their occupation of Palestinian land is considered illegal under international law, I think my position is pretty clear. Though before any presumptions are made, I don't disprove of the existence of the Israeli people and their right of an establishment, I disagree with the Israeli government territorial occupation and seizure of Palestinian land, and the associated restriction of Palestinian rights

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
replied to...

you can say lie all you want, doesn't mean anything to me. You need to substantiate what you say or else you just sound desperate

2 years, 10 months ago
Nemiroff
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do you hold issue with just the disproportionateness of the Israeli response towards palestine, or a more fundamental disagreement regarding the establishment / existence of the state?

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

here is another lie from you jizya you pay while being humiliated but zakat is what a muslim gives joyfully you can't cheat me

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
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How can it be discriminatory against the Jews and Christians when Muslims were also prosecuted for not paying Zakat? (even when Zakat is actually overall more of a taxation than Jizya)

Doesn't this Infact demonstrate equality for ALL?

Also, Jizya only applies if you are post-pubescent male who is physically and financially able to work and pay the tax. No women, No child, no elderly, no disabled.
Plus, there was no military service requirement, yet they had full protection from the Muslims in the state


I think you are just truly blinded by the red smokescreen surrounding your eyes

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
replied to...

1. Historical context - my knowledge of Jews in this context is very limited, but as far as I am aware, and just like now, we had peaceful Jews who were continually seeking God and were steadfast in their beliefs and with the messengers (E.g. Moses). These are the examples of Jews which we as Muslims acknowledge as being those who lead the right path based on the message they received at their time. On the other hand, there were many Jews who persecuted both Jesus and Muhammed, but it is not for me to judge beyond what I know, all I can say is that God will treat everyone fairly and not overburden a single soul

2. Modern day - my personal encounter with Jews I have had not a single problem. I simply views Jews, people of religion or no religion all the same, as I don't differentiate when it comes to us as humanity. I understand many, both Muslim & non-muslims, have personal conflicts and issues with Jews, whether that may be direct or as a consequence of the impact of Israel on the people of Palestine, who knows.

But I cannot condemned a Jew who has no or had no active involvement in the disproportionate activities of the Israel governments against the Palestinian people. It is only those who are supporters, either active or passive, where I may have an issue

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

i don't hate muslims i hate islam the ideology

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

first of all it is not hate but zeal for the truth secondly i want every body to know the reality of islam thirdly a jizya was only imposed on jews and christians and thus it was a law that ostracized and de marginalized christians and jew specifically

2 years, 10 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

conquered people give tribute. it standard practice, not isis.

how about the restitutions we imposed on Germany after ww1 that completely destroyed their economy? or the total disarmament of japan? or our treatment of the Indians after every battle?

as a devote christian, how can you be so filled with hate?

2 years, 10 months ago

wdz, what are your feelings about Jews in

1. historical context ?
2. modern day?
3. in the case of Israel?

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

iraq

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

yes give the jizya lier jizya a fee to be a nonmuslim thus you have proven that isis =islam thank you

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

lie lie lie what about Muhammad's sex slave safia ?ha

2 years, 10 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

what Islamic country do you live in?

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
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He did not battle them because he hated them; he fought them after they had planned and instigated an attack against the Muslims of Medina. It was because of the uncalled for provocations that Muhammed had called for his army to go towards Khyber. They battles like they would, but the Muslim army did not go around killing innocent Jews. After the leaders of Jewish tribe surrendered, the Muslim army stopped fighting immediately, and Muhammed began to establish administration of the territory. But he gave the Jews the right to continue to inhabit their land on the condition that they provide a payment for half of the produce they make income from, essentially a contract for their surrendering in warfare.
Even the local Jewish settlement of Fadak went to prophet Muhammed to negotiate a peaceful contract, which Muhammed accepted and allowed them to live peacefully in their land, with no requirement at all for fighting.

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

no 90% of the muslims if not all of them they don't like you as a matter of fact in islamic country if they wanna call you a coward they will say he is a jew

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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no but mohammad himself hated the jews omar the muslim khalif hated jews and christian but jews specifically

2 years, 10 months ago

which muslims? isis? they tortured Christians and other Muslims alike. that is a bad example.

shall I cite the treatment of Jews by the KKK and say all Christians hate me cause I'm Jewish based on that?

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

well have you heard of the story of the iraqi jews and the other jewish communities in arab countries believe me they were tortured secondly about the muslims who make their religion seem peaceful they are liers in their heart they hate you because you are a jew and they can't express it because they are afraid and believe that might not like westerners but they won't kill them but if as jew you land in any country that is muslim i assure you that a knife will be put in your stomach in the first minute of your arrival

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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lol you sound funny but mohammad himself called the jews pigs and ordered to kill them and fought many battles against them just because he hated them khaibar is the best example

2 years, 10 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

no, they hate me because I am a westerner, and we have meddled in their affairs continously since world War 1 and before.

I've spoken to several Muslims and they don't really hate jews. they hate Israel and often cite the many Jews that oppose the creation of Israel as true jews.

Jews and Muslims have coexisted peacefully for many millenia, both suffering from Christian oppression and violence. the golden age of Jews in Spain was during Muslim rule until Christians conquered it and brought the inquisition.

2 years, 10 months ago
wdz
replied to...

haha, wow, you have no knowledge of Jewish historic civilisation living in Islamic Spain and Morocco do you, who were running away from persecution, and were purposely seeking refuge with Muslims?

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
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oh u suggest that you as a jew come and live in a predominantly muslim country for a couple of day and we will see what peaceful muslims are going to do to you



the most probable scenario you will return home in your coffin buddy


sorry to tell you that but they hate you just because you a jew

2 years, 10 months ago
fadi
replied to...

of course they were go and read history first and then come and argue in here

2 years, 10 months ago
Nemiroff
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and some Christians interpreted Christianity to justify their own superiority.

the fact is, those people are a tiny percentage of the Muslim population, and the main targets of their violence, as well as the biggest groups fighting them are all muslim.

for the sake of your right wing, meant to insult, political correctness, you will be alienating our allies and strengthening the extremists message. "calling it what it is" does nothing to change how we fight it, or its threats. it's a stupid, unimportant demand that will only harm our fight against it and is simply meant to rile up the sheep before the election.

and I wasn't "expecting" any rhetoric, I literally got it, not from you but from fadi. please stop assuming, you seem to have a nasty, repetitive habit of assuming what I "expect" and are typically very wrong.

3 years, 1 month ago

first off to answer this question it cannot be summed up with just religious reasons and interpretations. you must take into consideration the fact that the are groups using these religions and their interpretation to manipulate the masses with fear into making them think one thing is right over the other.

3 years, 1 month ago

I think you were expecting the rhetoric of all muslims are to blame, not that some have a specific interpretation that is defensible by the Qur'an. Its hard to argue on this app because we cant really see who the person is we are arguing with, and its difficult to clarify with set text and no digressions.

3 years, 1 month ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

not at all. I never said Christianity is to blamed. I said there are many among them who do see it that way, and there is a train of thought, and histoical that does support this belief. some in the Arab world do generalize about the west, just like some in the West generalize about the Arab world.

that is a fact about the reality of the world. it is not my personal belief.

3 years, 1 month ago

"that was the decision of a terrorist organization. that's like blaming all Christians for the violence of the KKK.

by your logic you should be hated and killed for the hanging of numerous innocent black people in the name of your religion."

My logic never implied a universal generalization of all muslims. I only went so far as to say that some interpret and are backed by the ideology to kill infidels.

The idea of using generalizations to describe religions was brought by you and your statement of Christianity. Either you established the generalizations (or the siden on which you partake) or deny no evil in Islam.
The latter has become more evident throughout the argument after attempts to defend it, "to some traditional, fundamental muslims, this could simply be another, modern day crusade of Western nations invading their lands... again." Following that logic would mean a justification of 9/11 and terrorism, regardless of if you yourself support there actions. Simply, there is an explanation, but trying to align their rationalization with moral justification speaks for its defense.

3 years, 1 month ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

empty statements. filled with nonsense.
explain and back up your claim.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
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The irony is that generalization of all Muslims being evil was of your own creation; or you are in denial of the evil of the extremist sects.

3 years, 1 month ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

that was the decision of a terrorist organization. that's like blaming all Christians for the violence of the KKK.

by your logic you should be hated and killed for the hanging of numerous innocent black people in the name of your religion.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

I dont understand your premise

3 years, 1 month ago

and the Christians invading the middle East. which had never belonged to anyone attacking, was also offensive.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

However, the expansion under the 4 caliphs were to spread and were offensive. But does their jihad reconcile flying a building with the purpose of causing terror.

3 years, 1 month ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

I don't believe iran, Iraq, egypt, jordan, Syria or most of the countries in the region were ever christian.

3 years, 1 month ago
fadi
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man the lands you are talking about were all Christian before the coming of islam they invaded them killed the people of the region and imposed their religion and language on the region

3 years, 1 month ago

the crusades were a mission to retake the Holy land, whereas the jihad is their mission to defend the Holy land.

to some traditional, fundamental muslims, this could simply be another, modern day crusade of Western nations invading their lands... again.

3 years, 1 month ago

Anyway Crusades werent in place as an excuse to murder muslims. And it too is a false equivalency to compare the modern era to one of the most violent periods of history.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

He said that the Jihad is as wacky as the Eucharist. Anyway the Crusades and counter Jihads took place in some of the most vicious times in world history. Everyone did it. The point of the crusades were to retake the holy land, but vicious actions occurred.

3 years, 1 month ago
Nemiroff
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the equivalency would be 9/11 vs crusades where both groups were promised paradise for murder.

the eucharist is being compared to cannibalism.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
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But I'll point fingers all I want. If you draw a moral equivalency to the Eucharist and 9/11, you are wrong. I honestly dont care what culture you come from, its wrong.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

So everything is supposed to be accepted as truth? Is the Quran the bible? Is Twilight the bible? They say different things; surely censorship must be the reason they arent together

3 years, 1 month ago

that is exactly why the church tried to destroy it, and all the other Gospels they didn't like.

3 years, 1 month ago

an interesting read is the gospel of Judas. it brings up the cannibalistic ritual as a flawed interpretation of Jesus's teachings, and details a more spiritual and less physical view of christianity.

it actually makes a lot more sense then the accepted canon.

3 years, 1 month ago

regularly drinking human blood that also happens to belong to the son of God who has been dead for 2,000 years. should you really be point fingers at other people's strange beliefs?

besides which Christians thought pretty much the same thing at one point. the church told people that going and fighting the infidels would erase all your sins and you would go to heaven. not only your sins, but you could erase other people's sins as well. Christianity also had its moments where murder sent you to heaven.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
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You haven't seen my tribal war paint

3 years, 1 month ago

sounds like cannibalism.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
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And I dont mind. If id didnt believe it, why would I follow it. It sounds wacko, but it is what it is.

Some Muslims believe that the attack of infidels can bring their virgins in heaven. That sounds wacky to me, but they believe it. It comes down to being harmful if one blatantly reaches out to affect me

3 years, 1 month ago

the same can be said of communion being the blood if Christ. some Christians believe that and others believe that it is metaphorical. but if you think about it from an outside perspective, that's cannibalism. and that's really weird.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
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I believe it is actually blood, and im not offended. Im a catholic; i dont claim to be the only Christian group out there. Many muslims who have had a significant contributions to the world in negative ways believed just that. That their martyrdom would bring virgins. It is defensible in the Quran, but not all believe it

3 years, 1 month ago

and Christians burned people at the stake. Christians commit terrorist attacks. some Christians believe that when they drink communion wine it is literally the blood of Jesus. people believe alot of things and do a lot of things. generalizing still isn't helpful.

3 years, 1 month ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

The fact he presented is believed by people. It should not be cast out either.

3 years, 1 month ago

I'm sure they make the same argument about Christians. making sweeping generalizations doesn't help anything or anyone.

3 years, 1 month ago

if the world was full of people who want to blow themselves up, we would be long gone by now.

3 years, 1 month ago
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