The debate "Theological fatalism proves logically god is a sinner or a liar or an invention of man" was started by
July 6, 2015, 1:55 pm.
15 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 13 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
I_Voyager posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
toughgamerjerry posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
I_Voyager, Sosocratese, Georgi_ZKL24, Quantum, laurairw, Mr_Anonymous, ylmzemrah, musejay1, pajrc1234 and 6 visitors agree.
toughgamerjerry, Bxat9, wmd, R3dD0g, The_lamp, denno27, TruthSeekerCivilSpeaker and 6 visitors disagree.
I see what you're saying but it doesn't really do anything to my argument. It merely cites the motivations and goals of god from the bible. Citing the motivations doesn't cease the logic of my argument. It just calls into question the logic of the bible.
I'll use a metaphor to explain how this argument looks to me. It is as if the bible said "And god made all things to be the color red." But when I look outside, I see a blue sky. I must either reason "All things blue are red." which is illogical, or "The bible is incorrect in this statement" which is consistent with the break in logic.
You may not like this metaphor, but from my perspective I cannot shake off the illogic with just a citation to why god would want it to be that way. If god makes the universe where Adam and Eve sin, then he makes that universe and they sin. Or he makes the other universe. He doesn't make a universe where it's unknown whether they will sin until they sin, and when they approach sin they can choose to sin. He already knows they will sin, and makes them that way. So he makes them to sin. The bible might say "He makes them to choose." But that just doesn't fit.
God created us with the ability to sin, to be tempted by Satan, and to repent from our sins. God created every single one of us perfect, but when we chose to sin that makes us imperfect. God did not make us with the intention of us sinning, but instead made us with free will to chose whether or not to sin. God knows that we will sin, but if he created us with the inability to sin then that would make us robots. God wants us to work to get to heaven, so he sent His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross and save us from our sins so that we can make the choice to repent from our sins and accept that He is our Lord and Savior, and get to heaven. Bill Clinton made the decision to sin because Satan tempted him and he did not have the power of the Holy spirit to help him overcome that temptation. God does not sin, He is just, and He gives us a way to get into heaven even though none of us deserve eternal life. God knows what is going to happen, that is true, but knowing what will happen no matter what we do, is different than forcing that outcome to happen.
Claims for god - God is omniscience, omnipotent, eternal and transcendent of time. God hates sins.
Claims for man - Humanity inherited sin from the original sin. Men choose to sin because they have free will.
Step 1 - If earth doesn't exist god still knows what choices Adam and Eve will make on any given earth.
Step 2- If earth doesn't exist god still knows what sins will follow Adam and Eve's children.
Step 3 - If earth doesn't exist god still knows Bill Clinton will have an affair.
Step 4 - God made this exact earth and (presumably) no other earth and knows wholly what will happen on it.
Step 5 - Free will is predicated on no external constrain causing the "choice" to be determined for the chooser.
Step 6 - Predetermined events are established or decided in advance.
Step 7 - God must create a reality predetermined by his knowledge of it.
Step 8 - Predetermination is an external constrain which comes from the past to determine the future.
Step 9 - Bill Clinton's affair was predetermined by god.
Step 10 - Bill Clinton doesn't have free will.
Step 11 - The religion claims people have free will and god is omniscient.
Conclusion - The religion is illogical. Either god knowingly causes all sin, or god lies about his omniscience, or god is flawed fiction of man.