The debate "There are 2 genders" was started by
February 15, 2017, 12:55 am.
65 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 29 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
Blue_ray posted 3 arguments, Your_dad posted 5 arguments, Ematio posted 1 argument, UnderdogMike posted 3 arguments, redstar posted 1 argument, Masonearl posted 5 arguments, THUNDERSTORM4776 posted 1 argument, Sabertoothwolf posted 2 arguments, Nemiroff posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
Blue_ray posted 1 argument, Nemiroff posted 32 arguments, jazzyjay posted 1 argument, PsychDave posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
Blue_ray, MrShine, CoreyO, Ematio, UnderdogMike, Yanksxx21, thereal, sabrina, theshadow0, FaithofExaltism, makson, The13yearoldconservative, MCFission, esquire0103, Lahari153, Masonearl, judas, THUNDERSTORM4776, MerciPol, dbrock, Sabertoothwolf, Austynbb, Nemiroff, viralbeats, blakekelly116 and 40 visitors agree.
PsychDave, jazzyjay, redstar, PaintedGalaxy12, Kulu, ttsacin2, rodney, Ana_33, historybuff, Against_eu, Berry_Good, anu1302 and 17 visitors disagree.
the primary source of objections to gender issues are religious. that is likely how we got to that tangent.
Why did this turn into a religious issue... God has nothing to do withultiple genders. It is created by man.
the fact of the matter, if Christians were to act trully as Jesus showed them, they would not hide the fact that certain life styles are sinners, but neither would they repeatedly rub it in their face. they would welcome them into the church and let Peter at the pearly gates be the final arbiter, seeing as everyone has some sin to them. I have a strong suspicion that even if homosexuals unable to overcome their trial may end up in hell, the self righteous scumbags spreading nothing but misery across the earth will burn in a much deeper and darker pit.
where does the bible state that can't happen? no one understands how the soul works and therefore for all we know, the soul could be at the center of this whole gender mix up, and if God trully is perfect, then this is all just a part of his plan.
but did Jesus shame her? did he chase her away and protest her? Or did he turn to the people acting exactly as the Christians of today act and said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?
"and if a female spirit enters a make body by mistake or for a reason?"
..Neighbor. Do you know how our spirits work? Why would you say something like that? The Bible tells us that can't happen so it won't happen. Do you understand?
Jesus is ashamed of sin. He and I and all the Christians that live their life for God, hate sin. If you love sinners you must hate sin. The woman who washed Jesus' feet; She loved Jesus. Do you think she continued to be a prostitute after hearing His teachings or no? Please answer, thank you.
and if a female spirit enters a make body by mistake or for a reason? a spirit seperate from the body only enhances the gender dysphoria argument giving validation from something that may be seperate from their incorrect body.
I find very interesting the difference between the actions of Jesus and the Christians who supposedly are following his example. Christians shame and protest homosexuals. calling them sinners despite their belief that we are all sinners regardless. Jesus on the other hand, sought out sinners rather then chase them away, and instead of shaming the prostitute, he washed her feet.
You are not just your flesh, Nemiroff, but a spirit indwelt within a body. And your flesh wars with God so that you do what you like versus what is Right. Homosexuality, transgenderism, gender fluidity, are all sins that are the result of living in corrupted flesh. These things are not who God made us to be.
the being not comfortable in your own skin is what is not normal.
btw, when I said gender dysphoria is abnormal, I don't mean having a personality anywhere on the gender spectrum, that is normal.
what is not normal is the extreme alienation from your birth sex that leads one to surgery. and that is the fault of society that told them so strictly what it is men/women are supposed to do.
they don't just look masculine and feminine, they act ambiguously as well. they take on both feminine and masculine characteristics. that is what is defined by "gender". social aspects and characteristics. and why you will never find gender in a biology book.
I agree with you that this gender dysphoria is abnormal, but that doesn't change what words mean, please hear me out.
masculine and feminine are pure extremes on the gender spectrum. gay/straight is irrelevant. you can have a masculine gay guy and a flamboyant straight man. tomboys, Prince, etc. that is gender.
idk about all the weird terms they come up with, or the pronoun debates, but that's just them talking amongst themselves, not something being enforced on every one, and the only place you'll see this "forcing" is on alt right fake news.
Androgyny refers to someone who looks both masculine and feminine. It in no way supports your argument. An androgynous person can and probably will still conform to his/her assigned gender (male/female).
have you ever heard of someone described as androgynous?
your using gender and sex interchangeably.
Using the biblical route we see that God created Adam and Eve. Without it we are still either male or female. You can title yourself any way you prefer, but you were still with the a physical makeup pertaining to one of the two genders.
i do believe that this gender disphoria is abnormal, but I think the blame lies with our societies strict definition of gender norms, especially for men. you keep defining man as strong, limited emotional, and various clint eastwoodish characteristics, a boy who feels more like prince may get the idea that maybe he wasn't meant to be a man. whereas otherwise he would have been perfectly comfortable wearing a pink suit and retaining his genitals and bathroom designation.
I don't think birth certificates have a section labeled "gender". just sex.
I don't buy into the alt right horror stories of enforcing a million pronouns. I think that's a bunch of balony. I've heard of the trans community discussing various pronouns amongst themselves as options moving forward but the only thing they usually insist is he vs she (even if opposite) not a million new ones.
and yes, I'm sure there has been more then 1 ****** trans making a fuss over nothing... just like there are ****** rednecks and millenials hipsters out there in the nationwide sea of ordinary people within those categories. that's all the alt right does, scour the nation for the dumbest examples of their target groups and then claim that's their whole story. alt right examples aren't lies individually, but the reality they paint are nonsensical fiction.
The difference between homosexuality and transgenderism is that you can be gay without being trans, and being gay is not a choice. choosing to change your gender is a willful choice. Even though it's a scientific inaccuracy and you cannot do that.
personally I think the entire argument is rediculous. The first time I ever heard about transgenderism, I just shook my head and laughed that people were taking this seriously. like I said, XY is male and xx is female. It's simple biology and that should just determine it. Also, gender and sex are not the same thing. I can't remember the last time a baby came out of the womb and it was written on the birth certificate that the gender of the baby was bigender, or polygenger, or something like that. Every male baby has the male gender, and the male sex. Every female baby has the female gender and the female sex. They are the same thing.
I'm not just talking about trans people. I'm talking about the gender queer community as a whole. I will grant you that transgender individuals do not easily change however in the case of transgender individuals it is also more difficult to misgender them unless it is intentional. They traditionally also use male or female pronouns instead of then they their or ze zem zer. Now I'm not saying its right I'm just saying it is easier to deal with it.
why is it that all the trans people claim of a life long struggle and have a history of bullying and depression because of this struggle? and not something they decided one day when they walked out the door?
I'm sure few years back they said the same thing about gays and their freaky "sudden revelations." laughing that they'll just switch back on a whim. havent seen many flipping around now that its normalish.
Exactly, I could walk out of my house tomorrow and say that I'm black even though I'm not. Saying something doesn't make it true, and saying something about yourself doesn't make it true unless its factually credible or obvious.
The examples of animals expressing a different gender is not an indication that human should do it... These animals express these genders as a part of survival. Cuttle fish do it for propagation of their DNA and Hyenas do it because hyena packs are led by a dominant female instead of male.
Using animals to say that being gender queer is normal is unfortunately folly. Since even if an animal exhibits gender queer traits it only applies to that animal and in no way definitively proves that it is natural among humans.
Also remember that for thousands of years humans have not had this problem with gender expression. It is a modern notion and one that frankly serves no purpose.
Its that simple, and its scientifically accurate.
I personally think it should be as simple as biology. XX is a female and XY is a male.
I own multiple businesses through which I am in contact with many different people from all walks of life on a daily bases. I also live in South Africa where the gender issue is not as big. And yet I HAVE had some, not many but some, people insist and not ask that I call them by a specific pronoun.
The fact that even in a fairly conservative country like South Africa people can demand this of you is an indication as to how wide spread and rediculous this has become.
Also I meant that some gender queer individuals actually change their gender MORE often than one every two years like you suggested. Then there ate also gender fluid people who change between the genders at will. Not sure if ze zem zer etc apply to them or if all the gender pronouns do. If it is the latter then they will always be misgendered.
There is no context difference here. Just a difference of opinion.
Gender is how an organism expresses themselves. Take the cuttlefish for example. Male cuttlefish have been observed expressing themselves as female in order to pass on their genes. Same goes for hyenas yet with their females expressing a male gender. Seeing as gender is how one expresses themselves this means that one's gender lies on a spectrum. One can express themselves in infinite ways.
the difference is in the context. you see it as entitled people acting stupid on a whim when in reality these people are almost always tackling with these feelings all their lives, usually since childhood, inspite of continuous bullying and far too often violence. I don't think this narrative that they well flip flop in 2 years is like claiming all the gay people will just become straight soon.
alt right method of selective news doesn't build an accurate picture of reality.
your first link didn't work but a Google of "fined for pronoun Washington post" mentioned something about the "Volokh conspiracy" (part of your link) being an opinion piece and that was fake news. (Not biased news, real fake news, like pizza gate and half the alt right)
your second link is about treatment of elderly people and pertains to how workers perform in a professional setting. but once again, the difference between us is context. you see an entitled elderly person heading towards death (?) (or demented, in which case shouldn't you just play along as a therapeutic personnel?). and I see a person who probably felt that way and was persecuted for it all their life, given the opportunity for some respect in his death bed.
I guess I disagree with your entire narrative. I don't think anyone is forcing you to do anything, I don't think anyone in your real life has demanded any of those pronouns, and definitely didn't get mad at your initial mistake, and that the whole alt right perspective is fiction.
The right to education is a right. To me the right to identify as any gender of which there are now several is not sensible. And enforcing it even in the workplace is not reasonable either. The moment that one right conflicts with a mother it should be reconsidered. Either the previous right ,which is in this case freedom of speech, must be abolished or The right breaking the afore mention right of freedom of speech must be abolished. I refuse to accept that referring to some one as male or female, which is has worked for thousands of years, is in some way a violent act of abuse against some leftist SJW with no common sense. If this is the direction we are going then what if I choose to identify as a different species. People must start calling me by my "martian" name if I so choose? It is absolutely and unequivocally unreasonable to expect the rest of the world to simply accept this and validate what is in my opinion insanity.
here are some links.
And this is after a two minute search for articles on google. Regardless of whether it is in the workplace or private sector (its only a mater of time) it is still the left Forcing their opinion in people. These people have a real problem. where they require validation from the people around them instead of validating themselves. They have created names like ze, zem, zer and expect the rest of the world to simply accept this. And this is based on their preference!? So if I break and finale start calling this person ze and after two years I'm use to it, ze might not identify as gender non binary anymore and might choose to identify and female for example. This then forces me to start calling ze man or miss etc. It is absolutely ridiculous. it is hard enough to deal with rape or harassment allegations by some vindictive woman in the workplace and now we are expected to deal with claims of abuse or violence if we don't use certain pronouns? SJW's are making it increasingly difficult to simple be a normal person. check your privilege, greeting a woman is a form of rape, mansplaining, misgendering, safe spaces. all of these seem to be an outcry for attention and perhaps even an attempt at asking for help.
Instead of Validating ridiculous pronouns we should be helping those in need. Dealing with issues of racism in the police force, Global warming etc. we can't be playing the pronoun game right now......
I don't understand your free speech complaint. no one is facing jail time or any form of fine for using pronouns. the first amendment protects you from official government repercussions, of which there are none. it does not protect you from social repercussions. Do others not have the right of free speech to criticize your opinions?
there may be a few isolated laws regarding employers and equal workplace protections, but I challenge you to find any penalty for private citizens.
in what way is the left "forcing" you to accept anything? as far as I can see the left is just trying to protect the rights of these people to pursue happiness and prosperity. if your so unwavering in your personal opinions and definitions, why do you so easily dismiss the views of others? you aren't just demanding that you be allowed to use pronouns of your choice but that anyones use of those pronouns is invalid and should be banned. why are you attacking freedom of speech? rights work both ways you know.
Like I said. its not about their sexual preferences. Its a matter of free speech in a way. I should not be forced to change the way I talk especially if I do not agree with it. Its ridiculous that I am accused of abuse, violence, bigotry, of being a white supremist and just a horrible person if I don't respect their so called preferred pronoun. And in some states this is actually punishable by law!!!!!! I do not subscribe to multiple genders. In my opinion they are illusions, created by people of questionable mental states.
There is a case of sexual assault perpetrated by a gender queer individual in a bathroom of the opposite biological gender. Granted it is only one. I also agree that sexual abuse is also perpetrated by cysgender (forgive the spelling) people. I believe that some cysgender people will be in fact the ones using this new rule to their advantage in sexually assaulting someone by claiming to be gender queer when they are in fact not. If unisex bathrooms work so well then why is it not universally common?
I just think that the left trying to force EVERYONE to accept these new genders as real is unacceptable.
as to how I would differentiate the genders? I wouldn't. I don't understand the preoccupation the right has with these and pretty much every group that's in any way different from them. unless Someone wants me to call them something demeaning to me, like master, sir, it king of all, I don't care if they want me to call them him, her, it, mrs, miss, ms. it is all irrelevant.
what I am concerned with is their need for surgery and their feelings of being uncomfortable in their own bodies. I don't think it's normal, but not something wrong with their heads, something wrong with our society and how we enforce our gender norms.
"boys don't cry, boys don't show emotion, boys don't like pastel colors, girls have to be feminine, sleep with too many people and your a slut, boys have to conquer as many women or they are losers". if we define these roles so strongly, and a boy or girl (mostly boys, the rules are much more strict) doesn't feel like they fit those rules, rather then seeing themselves as boys who are different, they see their bodies as wrong. cause clearly they are not boys based on our social definitions.
Stop pushing these norms and you will have more effeminate men like prince and less delusional men like (the Kardashian tranny) who thinks there's such a thing as "feeling like a man/woman".
btw, many parts of the world have unisex bathrooms anyway, independent of any gender confusion crisis. the sexes share a common sink area, but everyone has individual stalls... which is the way girls bathrooms are set up anyway......
if they had the same definition, why do they have different words?
some on the left consider every one on the right as bigots. some on the right consider everyone on the left as traitors. can we put the shit slinging of the dumbest amongst us aside and focus on the topic and our individual arguments.
the thing is that trans people typically dress and look like the sex they identify with. one would have look closely at the Adams apple or assume it's not a women who happens to have a deeper voice. so ultimately it would be up to strict security, and id checks in the bathrooms.
Also, the potential danger you are talking about has not happened, and is honestly, pretty irrelevant as same sex people can also assault sexually, and you simply punish the offender after the crime, not before. however, as I said trans people dress like the sex they ID with. seeing someone with a dress and makeup walking into a men's bathroom is obvious and has resulted in numerous violence that actually happened.
To be honest it shouldn't have to be enforced. I agree that these cases or case is rare but they can and will happen. Sexual assault is sexual assault regardless however my point was that allowing a biological male entrance into a female wash room simply because he identifies as such is dangerous. as far as seeing a fake? it has gotten to the point where a man, as masculine as could possibly be, who dresses and acts like a man can be "misgendered". I understand this is an extreme but it is out there. So how does one determined the legitimacy of a gender queer claim in this situation.... you cannot. therefore the safest and simplest course of action is to prevent gender queer people from making these claims or at the very least having them conform to the rule of biological male and biological female bathrooms.... unless of course they want a separate bathroom altogether.
in my opinion gender and sex never had two definitions that were separate from one another. there is male and female.
Now if I may ask. How would you differentiate genders? How would you have society change to accommodate these new genders? And is it not my human right to have my own beliefs and moral systems? What gives gender queer people the right to call me a bigot for not following their rules if they outrightly refuse to follow mine?
as for the bathroom issue. it seems like a logical concern at first but may I ask a few questions?
1. what's the difference between a child assaulted by an opposite sex person and a same sex person? What if your son was assaulted by another male in the men's bathroom? and if it is an opposite sex person, they'll go to jail for this wetter they are faking it or not.
2. many of the largest cities, and I think a few states have had legal transgender bathroom choice for about a year now. I've heard of one incident and the person went straight to jail, because transgender people are trans in every part of their life and it isn't that hard to tell a fraud apart. so can you give me an example of your concern in reality?
3. How would you enforce this? have a guard at every bathroom checking genitalia on access? if a law is not enforceable, what's the point of it?
I think one of the issues you are facing is an issue of vocabulary. different words, even if similar, never have exact meanings.
*sex* is binary and set in stone at birth. XX or XY, and no matter how much hormones you take or parts you chop/slice, your genetics won't change. since sports are more of a physical activity then a social one, it should be separated by physical sex.
*gender* is a different word. it has nothing to do directly with genetics. it's a social term. it's less male/female than it is masculine/feminine.
A man who identifies as female for example now wishes to use female toilets as well.... I will certainly not allow a man to enter a female bathroom with my wife or daughter in it just because he is non binary or gender fluid or identifies as female... do you not see what kind of problem this raises. perverted men will use this irrational ability to to choose gender to their advantage. Those who decide their gender often also change their gender often. not to say those who are gender non conforming are perverted just that it creates dangerous opportunities for those who are. The whole gender thing seems like a mental illness to be honest.
Also non-binary individuals believe they have no gender... so they are gender fluid? I have no problem with someones attractions. I do however have a problem with someone who wishes (and has succeeded in some American states) to force me to engage in this nonsense by referring to them with some other pronoun and if I don't know I must ask and not assume and failure to do this makes me some sort of bigot. Male is male and female is female. If you look like a man then I will refer to you as such... calling me a bigot and telling me that it hate speech to assume you gender is ridiculous.
I have a question... If a man identifies as female and he wishes to participate in female sports would this be acceptable to you? To be more specific a weight lifter (male) chooses to identify as female and suddenly wants to compete against female weight lifters.... to me this is ridiculous. One cannot simply change your gender from your sex... it is irrational. If we can choose our gender and create very imaginative genders like non-binary to suite our PERSONAL tastes than why should this he forced upon others who do not wish to recognize these genders. Where does it stop. May I now choose to identify as a different species altogether? the whole idea is very unsettling to those of us who prefer logic to magic....
Even if we accept you argument that sex and gender are the same, you are still mistaken. Are hermaphrodites male, or female?
you are defining sex, not gender.
but you are right. homosexuality, bisexuality, etc are not gender related at all, they are sexual attraction. gender related differences involve how a person acts and sees themselves, not who they are attracted to.
one can be feminine and sensitive, yet still attracted to women. one can be masculine, yet attracted to men. gender and sexually are different.
yes, there are only two genders
gender means the state of being female of male so there are only two... whether you feel you are the gender you are born with is up to you, either way you are the gender you were born as. bisexual or homosexual isn't really a gender... it is how some one feels
thus someone is born xy, but feels natural to act feminine is of a nonconforming gender.
you just defined gender. sex is purely genetic. xy, xx.
the behavioral, cultural, and emotional aspect is gender.
1 a : SEX 1 b : the behavioral, cultural, or emotional traits typically associated with one sex.
2 sexes, 2 genders. stop trying to redefine words.
not in the real world.
Those are sexs. Gender has a different meaning.
there are males, females, and Liberals
There are males and Females
I would say that the white race has been the most successful in the events leading up to now. I'm not saying that other races haven't been successful in history though.
and saying white people have been the most successful race is also not exactly true. Asian empires have been huge and powerful. they were far more advanced than the European barbarians at that time.
white people are dominant at the moment. that's as far as I would go.
a lot of English lies in the delivery. that's why printed spins are so effective.
Well, Wikipedia has, so I have now.
I wasn't saying that there is anything wrong with being a minority, or that being white is an achievement. It was just an example of a seemingly bigoted statement that is actually a reasonable claim.
have you ever heard of the bell curve?
I disagree. I believe the most common response there would be to call you ignorant, not bigoted. although I'm sure you'd get all kinds of different answers.
it also depends on how you state your views. did you say "I disagree with your beliefs" or did you say "f*ing fags,"? cause the 2nd one is pretty obviously bigoted. that would explain the response you quoted.
white people may or may not be the most successful, but that doesn't make a claim of superiority. in a fair contest between equals, someone eventually wins, and then loses, and then wins again. I really think your confusing greatest ever with current champion.
even then, the true bigot turns that accomplishment of the race, into some sort of personal honor, while individually being ordinary and achieving little compared to others of all races. it's the generalization from some general fact into a personal truth about oneself and whole groups that makes a man a bigot.
ignoring the reality of the individual, including oneself.
I don't think I was generalising. Most people who think there are several genders actually would claim bigotry if I stated my own valid opinion.
For example, the statement: "white people have been the most successful race on Earth".
It seems racist and bigoted, but it isn't.
your generalizing. only individuals say that. no official elected leader on the left cries like that. they are idiots. they are wrong. and they don't represent anybody but themselves.
discussing the subject is not bigotted. generalizing about large groups is.
I'll agree with you. far too many on the left do cry bigot. on the other hand on the right they scream traitors at us routinely. so yall aighnt any better. most people are stupid, on both sife.
The thing is, I don't actually care if people think they're some "dhdkxbdbgkxbgender" or whatever. It's just the fact that if we disagree, we automatically become bigots.
cause the people on opposite side of the nation have to independently come up with identical terms or they must be liberal snowflakes.... guess that's what happens when some people look at others and declare "them!" and start treating them like some hive mind that had better not contradict itself.
it's called we haven't established official terms yet. it's a ground up movement. it has nothing to do with being special.
but you clearly just want to build on your already set narrative.
Yes, Your dad. There are two different terms for one meaning. Are you surprised?
Doesnt this mean that there are more than two genders?
Agender: when someone thinks they have no gender.
Genderless: when someone thinks they have no gender.
The words mean the same thing. But everyone wants to feel special, I guess.
Agender and genderless are the same. But they are still genders that people identify as.
what's the difference between agender and genderless?
you can call me big papa.
*Correction. You cannot fit everyone into two boxes.
Your dad I agree that there are two genders. BUT, however, there are a lot more than just two. you can fit everyone in the world into two tiny boxes. Thats not being open minded at all.
There is even genderless ;)
would you mind if i call you uncle?
he didn't add. he started it.
I was replying to the opening post.
what? are you talking to me? your_dad didnt add arguments
wtf... my reply didn't show up.
"or I could have been responding to your_dad who made the same statement in the thread title.
also, what exactly was hyped there? do you not want me to state my case? maybe you should tone down your sensitivity"
i'm sorry..... take it lightly uncle... it was a mistake. I meant sex.
gender is not a biological term. sex is. gender is social. you will not find the word gender in any biology book unless it is defining a cultural aspect.
gender and sex are 2 different words. they have 2 different meanings.