There are 2 gendersn

November 24, 2019, 11:42 am

Agree54 Disagree21

72%
28%

The debate "There are 2 gendersn" was started by wandafish10 on November 24, 2019, 11:42 am. 54 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 21 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

beware_of_my_mouth_honey posted 1 argument, jrardin12 posted 1 argument, diecinueve posted 1 argument, kbrown91 posted 1 argument, marky posted 15 arguments to the agreers part.
TheExistentialist posted 4 arguments, Nemiroff posted 10 arguments, Allirix posted 5 arguments to the disagreers part.

wandafish10, benmiller, RoyDierlijk, beware_of_my_mouth_honey, jrardin12, kbrown91, marky, devinmungo, JDAWG9693, Bnice80, Jemjem13 and 43 visitors agree.
TheExistentialist, Nemiroff, Allirix and 18 visitors disagree.

Nemiroff
replied to...

as i said before transgender agree with you on the only 2 genders issue, they just disagree that they must remain their original gender.

they have nothing to do with the 3rd gender movement which usually does not involve any medical procedures or mental issues.

7 hours, 4 minutes ago
Allirix
replied to...

Oh you recognised your error. My bad. I explained what the first paragraph meant in the last response. Nowhere in the article did they say gay is a gender.

7 hours, 40 minutes ago
Allirix
replied to...

You didn't read it... you literally picked out a few words from the first paragraph and created a whole new meaning haha.

Maybe try reading it again.

"On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders. {DIFFERENT SENTENCE} Terms such as ?transgender? and ?gay? are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), as many as two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman)."

It doesn't say Trans and gay are genders. It says they're terms that are used in societies with 2 genders. Please try again being less bias against it.

7 hours, 43 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

Ok, when a fetus is put into a woman. That fetus is classified as female from the start. sense none start with a dildo. So the fetus grows, and then when its time, it's time to be born. If it has a dildo or a Vgg. The doctor is either say, boy or girl.

So if the person was to grow up, and all of a sudden he wasn't happy with the sex he's with. He may decide there going to be another sex. Then they ask for a sex change cause they are unhappy with it. They are actually unsatisfied with there gender. And when they go through those changes, they would be considered. "Transgender." So they aren't trying to appeal to another gender. Its cause they want to be another gender. So going through sex change will make them the gender they want to be in their heads.

If culture was to acknowledge more then two genders, but they don't have any idea what they are. Its more so of what gender you might be in those other cultures I guess, but only agree that there are two. It's harder to prove that there are more when just cause one says. ", Yeah it could exist." It doesn't mean it actually does exist. It's more of a possibility. In other Cultures, it may be seen as subjective. Yet no one as ever tried to change there gender to being something that isn't a male or female. A culture could recognize it as if there are more, its not the gender that is subjective. Its more so how someone feels towards who they should be. Male or female. Cause they aren't happy with there sex.

If there are 4, 5, 6, 7 to infinite, we should know what they are.

18 hours, 28 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

Now i may be miss interpreting that. I read the whole thing. It also says two sexuality
two genders and two sexes. Again i may be misinterpreting it. I got the notion that some cultures maybe seeing gay as gender. Except i don't think you can lump Gay with transgenders. If I am misinterpreting something then my bad.

19 hours, 14 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

I did read it, it said it "integrated more then just two genders. Transgender and Gay."
specifying. I read it i know what the article says.

19 hours, 17 minutes ago
Allirix
replied to...

"Just because it may exist in other cultures doesn't mean it exists".

hmm. I don't understand how someone who understands gender could make a comment like this. Could you explain to me in your own words what makes gender a social construct and why it's different to sex? That may uncover our points of contention

22 hours, 7 minutes ago
Allirix
replied to...

Gay as a gender? Did you actually read it? I honestly didn't read all of the genders on the map, but none that I read had gayness as a gender. If your take away was they were saying gayness was a gender you are really good at strawmanning I'll give you that.

22 hours, 20 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

Just because it may exist in other cultures doesn't mean they actually exist. Recognizing them and considering it a gender. To say there are four Genders and including gay as part of a gender when really its someones preferred sexual tension they feel towards the same sex they are, should not be classified as a gender.

23 hours, 52 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

Why do they have gay men as a gender? You can't choose to be gay. Transgender, like i, said, I don't think is bad if its included.

23 hours, 57 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

I also agree with that. Its weird to me.

23 hours, 59 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

Veterans have a big suicide rate. It doesn't mean stop being a veteran. I didn't say they should just stop being Transgender either. Its more then likely that if a person is Transgender. They are more then likely are suicidal. Yes Veterans are themselves. Except they fought in a war so it's more PTSD the problem they have. Some Veterans are also Transgender.

"also transgender people agree with you, there are only 2 genders, and they are the wrong one. transgender and multigender issues are unrelated. i think transgender is a mental illness caused by strong enforcement of classical gender norms. instead of a feminine man, you have someone who thinks they shouldnt be a man, and become miserable because of it. i have never heard of gender spectrum people seeking some form of surgery or hormone replacement. they are usually fine with their sex."

No that actually happens. People seek medical treatment to be another sex

https://youtu.be/acSKE1FkkpI

23 hours, 59 minutes ago
marky
replied to...

Except the fact that in a social aspect, your talking about how you feel you would be. Character traits doesn't define your gender or your sex. They may be common to a certain group but it doesn't mean your gender is your personality or character. So that's misusing Gender.


No, bringing how absorbed it is for my reasoning can be part of it. Cause using it has a personality trait isn't actually appealing socially. Like i said though, they way someone dresses is fashion choice. Its not trying to be someone they are not. It might also be culture reasons.

1 day ago
marky
replied to...

No cause her sex is her sex. Gender is in fact just either of two sexes. Cause if you were to say it's not either of two sexes and say it's social, then I can't distinguish you from being a man or a woman.

1 day ago
Allirix
replied to...

You don't see evidence for other genders in other cultures because you're not in other cultures...

2 days, 17 hours ago
Allirix
replied to...

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/

3 days, 9 hours ago

where we will find some agreement is in the pronoun nonsense. im ok with adding a pronoun, just like women did with "mrs." but they have to pick 1, just 1, and no plural nonsense like nobility.

pick and agree on 1. although i will argue reports of "wrong pronoun freakouts" are exxagerated nonsense. plenty of gender ordinary people do random freakouts. idiots dont define a population.

3 days, 11 hours ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

veterans also have high sucide rates. does that mean we shouldnt be veterans? it sounds like a problem with the way society treats them, not a problem with them themselves.

also transgender people agree with you, there are only 2 genders, and they are the wrong one. transgender and multigender issues are unrelated. i think transgender is a mental illness caused by strong enforcement of classical gender norms. instead of a feminine man, you have someone who thinks they shouldnt be a man, and become miserable because of it. i have never heard of gender spectrum people seeking some form of surgery or hormone replacement. they are usually fine with their sex.

3 days, 12 hours ago

amongst gender proponents, gender is said to explain ones personality, or at least the masculine/feminine part of our personality... i dont think socks or helicopters have anything to do with any form of personality or chatacter traits...

so if you are trying to reduce our reasoning to absurdity (a classical argument strategy with an official latin name), then you are misquoting our reasoning. that doesnt make it very convincing.

3 days, 12 hours ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

this reponse ignores the part where in addition to dressing manly, she is also acting more masculine.... thus more then just a fashion choice, it is a personality choice.

dont you think ones "sex" would be "either of 2 sexes"?

3 days, 12 hours ago
marky
replied to...

Gender is suppose to be either of two sexes. Like i stated last time.


Yes if the woman was to dress masculine then it would be fashion choice. I use Gender cause it doesn't mean she wants to change her gender. Its a clothing she prefers doesn't mean she prefers to be a male.

3 days, 18 hours ago
marky
replied to...

"To us, male and female traits reliably map to man and woman. Since most of us are unaware of other genders they don't exist in our society." So if they did know about it would have to exist in our society. Even though our society already agrees there are male or female. If there are 4 genders in some areas... What are those genders called? From another culture they may acknowledge. But acknowledging is not good enough. It just means they know about it and paying attention to it. They probably even arguing the same thing as we are.


Yes it's accurate to say there are only 2 genders when I don't see any evidence seeing more existed. Unless you wanted to include transgender then I guess that's fine.

3 days, 18 hours ago
marky
replied to...

So, if a Subjection was to be made, and gender is just how someone feels Gender on the inside then they choose to express it for social reasons. Then let's look at this subjectively then. It's not wrong for someone to believe that there someone else on the inside. One might think. "I'm a pare of socks." Nothing wrong with thinking that. It's not wrong to believe that. They want to be socks. They might also feel they are Helicopters. It's not Objective cause how they feel with they are. Now let's look at this Objectively.

Gender means either of the two sexes. They're for your either male or female. You can't add another gender just to appeal socially. Nor can you change your gender. It makes no sense. That's not a good thing if they are thinking they are the opposite of a man or vise verse. And if they do think this then this would be referred to them as. "Transgender." Which is the name given to them when the Transgenders think they are the Opposite sex. They face a number of disparities as they go through life. I mentioned one being suicide. Another is HIV infections. And lack of primary care. So no, Appealing socially is not going to work.

3 days, 18 hours ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

im still very much confused as to what you believe is the difference between gender and sex. what is gender supposed to be?

"if you take a female and make her dress/act more masculine you are not changing her gender... it is more about fashion choice, not gender changing"

i cant copy/paste without going on the website cause my app sucks so sorry for slight paraphrasing.

i would say "you are not changing her sex" would be more fitting, and universally agreeable. however if her change includes (as you say) to act more masculine, then it is far more then a fashion choice.

as for your parent scenario, that is horrifying. gender expression is something that should be chosen by an individual, not forced onto them by someone else, including their own parents. those parents should be jailed for child abuse and that is totally missing the issue. thats like saying being gay is wrong because some idiot tried to force their child to be gay.

5 days, 12 hours ago
Allirix
replied to...

Sex = penis or vagina

Gender = reliable criteria to judge if one has a penis or vagina without seeing it.

A gender's criteria isn't objective nor is it always right. It just needs to be reliable.

To us male and female traits reliably map to man and woman. Since most of us are unaware of other genders they don't exist in our society. For a gender to exist there must be enough people who identify with it for it to reliably point to a sex. We only have the two.

But there are other cultures and subcultures that recognise more. There may be 4 genders that map to the 2 sexes, or inclusion of a gender that maps to neither gender or both genders.

So it's inaccurate to say "there are only two genders" and more accurate to say "there are only two genders in my culture"

5 days, 14 hours ago

Ok sure, but you cant turn yourself into something you aren't. It's not really appealing socially if you're trying to change your own identity. Gender is either of two sexes. That is what it's supposed to mean.

Child-rearing could be seen as masculine, yet the way a child dresses means what sex they are or gender in that matter. They dress in fashion they feel more comfortable with. Masculine(also Feminine) is more so how one appears traditionally, not so much as socially. (Although what culture you're from can be considered socially acceptable) also, the qualities that they happen to have could resonate with what Sex and Gender they are. male or female, man or woman.

So it already applies to how someone dresses. For culture reasons, It would be appealing socially if part of there culture is how they dressed. That's not a bad thing. However; If you were to take a Female and with her feminine type, and made her act more masculine. Your not changing her gender. She still is going to be looked as a female. That doesn't dress like a female. In fact, if she preferred Masculine appearances, it would really more be fashion taste. Not Gender changing. In fact, people that think they are the opposite sex have the highest suicide rating. I don't exactly know what it is, i guess it might be a problem with being socially excepted IDK. Also, if a parent that raises a child to be a female, even know its a boy just because the parent thinks Gender is more social then biological. Which by definition also explains that more so social differences rather then Biological ones. Then that boy well more then likely attempt suicide more then once. And more then half of male teens that we're transgender we're reported attempted suicide.

I don't know if Gender was always the definition but I don't think i can say it should be socially excepted. I believe it is the biology of your sex that makes up your gender. I hope that makes sense

5 days, 23 hours ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

what was gender supposed to be?

1 week ago
TheExistentialist
replied to...

Gender is a description of masculine vs feminine gender roles within a given society, not the description of female v. male biology. Gender has always been a concept intrinsically tied to social factors and norms. That's why gender is addressed in the study of anthropology, sociology, and psychology; not biology or anatomy.

In some cultures child rearing may be seen as a masculine activity and hunting as a feminine activity (like Aka tribe in Africa). So if a male member of the Aka tribe would move into a western Civilization where child rearing is considered a feminine activity and providing is considered a masculine activity, their gender roles would be reversed (especially if child rearing and providing are the major definitions of male vs female gender roles of a given society; think 1800's).

Now, if we take this same concept and apply it to dressing, affect, etc.... It's essentially the same thing. A person may abide by feminine gender norms and thus be more comfortable with the concept of "she" rather than "he" and the associated gender norms of that pronoun.

Now; are there biological differences between a "she" that was born a woman and a "she" that was born a man, sure. Are there considerations like in sports that need to be made, sure.

However, in the day to day, the distinction between "he" and "she" merely reflect the norms of masculine and feminine. If you didn't know any better and ran into a person who looks, acts, and sounds like the conventional "she" of your society, you'd very likely address them as Ms, Mrs, Mam, etc... If that person happened to be trans and you couldn't tell the difference at first glance you'd never think twice about it. It's only when that same person appears to be more "he" than "she" but wants to be referred and associates more with "she" that this ever becomes an issue.

1 week ago
marky
replied to...

but gender was never suppose to be social. Changing your gender for social needs isn't actual appealing socially.

1 week ago
TheExistentialist
replied to...

"Biological sex is not the same as gender. gender is not something scientific, but social"
actually gender is scientific. It's a descriptor in Anthropology, sociology, and psychology.

1 week ago

Sex and Gender mean the same. Your Sex is your Gender. You cant really change that.

1 week ago

men have a penis, women have a vagina
you can take all the hormones and surgeries you want it won't change the fact you're biologically a male or female, trans women dont get periods or have babies something that's fundamentally female, and trans men don't produce sperm something fundamentally male, trans people who get surgery have a much higher rate of suicide than trans people who don't get surgery, people are the gender ther born with and ther are 2 options

1 week ago
Allirix
replied to...

I agree with this

1 week, 4 days ago
diecinueve
replied to...

Biological sex is not the same as gender. gender is not something scientific, but social

1 week, 4 days ago
Allirix
replied to...

"how is gender a part of personality but ethnicity is not."

Gender isn't a part of personality. I never said it was, I said making it akin to personality is a misconception made by anti-traditionalists. You said it was when you said gender is to personality as France is to Europe. Personality is how you act, gender is a normative category for how you act that you identify with.

Gender is a social construct. Being a social construct means its meaning is negotiated by the collective. It's not defined by the individual. Gender is a collectively negotiated package of traits, behaviours, and symbols that are appropriate for each sex.

The number of genders are the number of packages society negotiates. Female and male are the two prevalent constructs. They are age-old monoliths that will be difficult to supersede. The concept of unlinking gender from sex is only relatively recent at 50 years old.

But I love the idea of creating new genders, and the only way a prospective gender has a chance is if individuals create them and subcultures legitimise them by accepting them and fighting for them to be accepted by the greater culture. But they haven't won yet, nor may they ever.

1 week, 4 days ago

@Beware I was just going to say that. I also like the fact that say there are more genders is to against science.

1 week, 5 days ago

God only made two genders. Whether you like it or not there are only two genders. Gay is still a man and lesbian is still a woman.

1 week, 5 days ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

scale = spectrum*

1 week, 5 days ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

the statement you quote from them is vague and open to interpretation. if i were to spin it, gender does come from within. noone can deny the massive correlation, however causation is questionable considering the many exceptions. rather then our genitals causing much of our personality, its likely a more fundamental process formed both independently, but often similarly.

our culture only accepts 2, but other cultures today and throughout history have accepted many. regardless of what people did, we agree that it is a matter of personality on a scale with infinite individual points. lets just accept that some men want to be feminine, and some women want to be masculine, agree on some common rules to avoid unwarranted surprises, and live on.

1 week, 5 days ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

how is gender a part of personality but ethnicity is not. there is wide variety of behaviors within an ethnicity (even more so with 1 of 2 genders), but you can definitely see distinct cultures and nationalities within the way many person behave.

every aspect of your background influences your character, that includes gender, ethnicity, religiousity. all of those are major social monoliths in ones life.

how exactly is stubbornness on the gender spectrum? are men or women supposed to be more stubborn? humor? we arent talking stand up comedians. most things are universally funny, and as far as personality its more about whether you have a sense of humor or not, and there's no gender differential there. what are you talking about? my refer back to all my previous points regarding personality.

1 week, 5 days ago
Allirix
replied to...

Ethnicity or religion are not a part of personality and stubbornness and humour are on the feminine / masculine spectrum. Did you really mean to say the opposite to that?

To clear up what I meant, my point was the anti-traditionalist side argues gender comes from within and doesn't need to link to an existing social or cultural construct about sex. It's a self-given identity that packages a set of cognitive, behavioural, and symbolic patterns. Without the reference to sex or any social or cultural constructs, it's not a gender, it's an identity.

I'm not saying I disagree with the concept of self-defined gender. I am very sympathetic to it. I see it as an approach that tries to expedite social change by installing what society should believe: it's appropriate to be whatever you want.

But when arguing how many genders we have right now it's important to look at what society believes now. There's a few subcultures that accept more than 2 genders, but our greater culture only has 2 social constructs for gender.

1 week, 5 days ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

ive heard many things argued, including that cancer is caused by sin. when you say one side/other side, that refers to one of 2, usually mainstream positions. not anecdotal arguments you heard in isolation.

gender is another word for personality the same way french is another word for european. all of gender refers to your personality, but it does not refer to your entire personality, such as your humor, your stubbornness, your ethnicity, your religiousity, etc. it is the parts of your personality that refer to your sex, or some other sex. i dont think any of the mainstream arguments from the left claimed that gender is the ethnic part of your character. rather they were making an oversimplified case that was taken out of context. to believe gender dictates the ethnic aspects of ones character is absurd.

btw, traditionalists tend to be on the right, anti traditionaists tend to be on the left. conservative/progressive. change/stability. left vs right is the divide you are referencing just using different terms.

1 week, 6 days ago
TheExistentialist
replied to...

There is a reason why we separated gender from sex. Sex is simply the biological description of male vs female. This is useful in fields like endocrinology, etc....

Gender is a description of masculine vs feminine gender roles within a given society. In some cultures child rearing may be seen as a masculine activity and hunting as a feminen activity (like Aka tribe in Africa). So if a male member of the Aka tribe would move into a western Civilization where child rearing is considered a feminen activity and providing is considered a masculine activity, their gender roles would be reversed (especially if child rearing and providing are the major definitions of male vs female gender roles of a given society).

Now, if we take this same concept and apply it to dressing, affect, etc.... It's essentially the same thing.

1 week, 6 days ago
Allirix
replied to...

I've heard it argued that gender is another word for identity and has nothing to do with sex. Where it's more akin to a word like personality or character than what society views as appropriate for a sex. It's the removal of the reference to sex that I called "rejecting the biological basis". It's just without reference to sex the word gender means something else. That reference is the basis of the word and is biological so I called it the biological basis. I wasn't suggesting biological determinism or anything like that.

Also, I'm not sure why you brought left vs right into this. Maybe because I mentioned sides you assumed I was referencing left vs right but I was just talking about tradionalists vs anti-traditionalists. To answer your question, accepting gender as an expression of sex [biological] that is socially defined and accepted [social] is what I'd see as accepting both sides of the word.

2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

can you elaborate on "one side rejects a biological basis for gender"?

if you feel that left wing acceptance of social genders is a denial of biological gender, what would acceptance of both look like?

2 weeks ago
Allirix
replied to...

I think where the confusion comes from on both sides is one side rejects a biological basis for gender and the other side rejects a social basis for gender. Really it's both. It's how society expects you to act if you have a penis or vagina.

More specifically, according to the World Health Organisation a gender is what a society considers appropriate for a sex to display itself as socially. If a society is progressive there may be multiple things that are considered appropriate so more than 2 genders may exist. But unfortunately in the Anglo-sphere, according to Hofstede, we have strictly defined genders that don't have much wiggle room. We're trying to change that, but the massive push back is evidence we're not there yet and probably won't be for a generation or two.

So I'd say our society technically has 2 genders, but there are subcultures where people consider more things to be appropriate for each sex so more genders exist there.

2 weeks, 1 day ago

Please distinguish between sex and gender before we continue @Wandafish10. I have a sneaking suspicion you don't understand the difference.

2 weeks, 2 days ago

define gender

2 weeks, 3 days ago
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