The debate "There are only 2 genders. Stick to biological facts let's talk chromosomic build up" was started by
March 17, 2018, 10:12 am.
16 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 11 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
ChangeMyMind posted 5 arguments, DrMrDaniel posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
Nemiroff posted 3 arguments, Gorgon posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
ChangeMyMind, chandu, RavenclawOwl, DrMrDaniel, brontoraptor, shashank, Leeezzz, unknown123, AGustafson and 7 visitors agree.
Nemiroff, Gorgon, ConyGoalard and 8 visitors disagree.
it was only recently decided to seperate gender from sex because until recently gender norms were iron clad and a women had no choice but to be feminine while a man who wasn't masculine was ostracized. it wasn't until the women's rights movement that many people were allowed to actually express what they had always felt.
I forgot to add---the motivations of differing genders varies highly from individual to individual. In some cultures, a particular gender may essentially be a religious role, even.
Simply put, to ascribe it all to histrionics is painting with very broad strokes. To be sure, there are people who claim all sorts of identities for attention seeking purposes, but this discounts the many people who claim some form of transgender identity who want no attention for it at all---For some, it's a source of shame.
Interesting side note, I have heard that the Old Testament mentions 6 different genders, which simply doesn't translate well and so it's a poorly known fact. I have yet to research this, so take it with a grain of salt.
The novelty of a scientific concept does not invalidate it. Also, most societies have had a more complex system of genders than a sex based binary. A more complex system for gender simply has more use than a strictly sex based one.
Reproduction via binary gametes is the most effective reproductive system, but hardly the only one. Fungi, indeed, can be best described as the most chaotic reproductive system known.
If you really think only bacteria and single celled eukaryotes reproduce asexually, have you ever cut a flatworm in half?
If I'm not incorrect, the most popular form of corn is incapable of sexual reproduction, having three of every chromosome instead of two. (I may be confusing corn with another popular crop.) To create more, you need snips of tissue from the thing.
Many invertebrates use budding, such as jellyfish, which, while they use sexual reproduction as medusa, the children become polyps, anchored to the sea floor, which then bud multiple genetically identical medusa.
Technically, bacteria are often known to use a kind of sexual reproduction where genetic material is exchanged via plasmids. (Hence a novel, beneficial mutation will spread rapidly through a bacterial population.) Remember from biology class, any reproductive strategy involving exchange of genetic material is sexual.
Fungi can't have thousands of genders because the purpose of gender is reproduction. One holds the egg and the other fertalizes. Other genders would be unneeded. Asexual animals (btw only single celled organisms are asexual) don't have gender because there is no fertilization needed. Also, it was only recently that people decided sex and gender were different. It was when someone decided that they would feel special if they differentiated themselves from normal people and they defended themselves so valiantly that others actually believed it.
I should add, if you want to be extremely technical, many fungi have thousands of sexes. Many other organisms are hermaphroditic. Anything that reproduces exclusively asexually would have no sex, and there's many organisms like that. And some organisms have alternation of generations, where one generation sexually reproduces, and the next does not, like jellyfish.
The term is not gender, it is sex. There are only two sexes in humans, with some rare exceptions due to genetic mutations or the like. But gender is a poorly understood concept, and is more readily defined by hormonal or psychological states.
thank you for your assessment of me. you are also quite reasonable in my opinion. I am not surprised many average joe liberals jump to racism accusations, however id like to point out average joe conservative jumping to libtard and traitors accusations. I wouldn't say this is a flaw with lefties or righties but rather a universal feature of undereducated masses.
regarding your points:
1. I believe all of these subjects are believed to be entirely nature, not nurture, at least imo. also, sexual preference has little to do with gender and transgender. one is about how one acts themselves, while the other is who you are attracted to. gay men can be butch, girly, or anything in between, and the same can be said about straight men. (and women).
this is off topic, but short and imo, conclusive. sexual preference is 100% nature because almost nobody can control the actions of their penis. what makes it stand in attention is completely outside of conscious control. I would not be able to choose to be gay even if I wanted to, my penis will simply refuse to comply. The same can be said in reverse. and I don't think closing your eyes and pretending changes anything about your actual preference.
2. I believe transgender people are actually trying to be transsex people, so yes, that usage is technically wrong. but science has a habit of not updating terms (like the reason silver is Ag and iron is Fe) but in their defence, they remain consistent in their usage.
Everyone who lives within the parameters of the law deserves a place in society. I personally do not care about who people choose to love, how they dress, who they pray to etc... I will not however, change the way I speak because it makes them feel better. By this I mean pronouns. I wanted to avoid this topic because it is extremely subjective, and hence far from scientific. Having said this Nemiroff I have never been able to have the Gender debate with anyone without ending up talking about the pronoun thing and whether or not they deserve to live in our society. Every time I get accused of being bias and unfair.( let the record show that I find you respectful and fun to debate with, just sharing my experience so far). The reason why I think it always ends up here really hones on what the central thesis of my argument is; conformists are tackling the wrong issues to address gender vs. sex and drowning the science behind it in a sea of accusations rather than posing their points of view from a scientific point of view. So in an effort to stay in topic let me bring this up:
1.) they talk about sex vs. gender as nature vs. nurture. But in the same breath, they claim that sexual preference is not a choice; that instead it is the product of nature.
2.) If gender is the product of behavior as opposed to biology as it is expressed in someone's physical appearance, then have we also been using the terms transsexual and transgender wrong?
rather I was wondering whether their demands for a place in society are not justified, and why.
and whether we grew up in the same place or elsewhere determining our language is exactly why I'm dismissing the casual usage of layman's terms and trying to steer you towards the systematic and consistent categorization used by science that has been in place for at least half a century.
words have different meanings. with the exception of fancy words for certain numbers (dozen) no 2 words have the exact same meaning and are interchangeable.
I didn't claim you said they shouldn't. I claimed you said they don't and I asked "why don't they (currently have a place)" I never implied you were trying to take a place they currently have away.
"I think, non conformists would like to redefine the word "gender" because they believe it will give them a place in society"
whoa... Do not put words in my mouth. At no point did I say that non conformists should not have a place in society. What the hell? I am saying, they spent their time tackling the wrong issues. As far as the use of gender and sex, I respectfully disagree with the "wide use" and distinction between the two. Perhaps we grew up in very different places and attended very different institutions.
"I personally think we need to SEPARATE the 2. behavior and gender."
they have separated them, it's called gender and sex. although layman's terms the 2 are often used interchangeably, in science and medicine they have long been distinct. then again in layman's terms we make up and change definitions all the time. The F Word implies the desire to have sex with someone, yet you will use it as a threat of action against another male you wish to insult and have no desire for intercourse with. layman's terms are pretty useless when it comes to categorization. what's the point of having 2 words for the same exact thing? maybe laymen are just dumbing it down and misusing the terms?
why don't nonconformists have a place in society? shouldn't they?
XX and XY. Not much in between.
and yes, the non conformists indeed have a problem with society standards of gender roles, which, by the way I believe is the epicenter of this debate. I think, non conformists would like to redefine the word "gender" because they believe it will give them a place in society, because it will yield to acceptance. I personally think we need to SEPARATE the 2. behavior and gender.
Nemiroff, once again, I surprisingly find myself thinking that we are saying the same thing in a different way. The example you inquired about are those medical forms that parents fill out in order to request birth certificates. I am not telling you from assumption but from experience: as a society, we've been using Sex and gender intercheangebly.
can you show me an example of these forms. not interested in the gov forms, the medical ones that use gender instead of sex.
I am certain about the textbook claim because science uses precise language. with the exception of if you go to some school that puts intelligent design into their science books, you may find anything in there. so let me revise it to no broadly accepted biology book written in the last 40 years (to be safe :p) uses the term gender. gender is frequently used in sociology.
regarding the nonconformists, if you define gender and sex as the same you will not understand their argument. unlike transgender, nonconformists aren't demanding surgery, hormones, or any form of medical intervention. they are perfectly fine with their sex. there is no issue there. their issue is with the way they act. can you pretend to act feminine for a decade? it will be very hard, even harder if you aren't trying to win a point but are just trying to live. it's not that they are male, they are not masculine.
I agree with Nemiroff. Oddly enough, given I agreed (and posed the topic) and you didn't. but I do see that it boils down to terminology. Gender roles, behavior, and societal standards play a huge part. I'm unsure why you're so confident about finding you a "single biology book" that agrees with gender; there are plenty. See also, geography books that state there are 5 continents vs. 7. No offense, but you should not get cocky like that unless you've written all books on the topic. Some birth certificates and government forms (issued by hospitals) have "Gender" instead of "Sex", and this is because we have been using both terms interchangeably. These are forms reviewed by doctors, you know, science people. The non conformists, (a term I also agree with), has failed to focus on the real topic: in my own humble opinion, gender is dictated biologically by the sexual organs you're born with. In turn, these sexual organs do not dictate sexual preference, or behavior. Just because someone disagrees with gender roles, it doesn't mean you must redefine the term. But I am open to new views, change my mind.
The issue is confusing 2 seperate issues imo.
transgender people actually have a biological sex dispute. they agree that there are only 2 genders, they just are in the wrong one.
the gender non conformist people (the ones making up 50 different genders) are all about social aspects and how one acts. like a feminine man. those genders have nothing to do with biology.
if you want to talk biology, find me a single biology textbook that uses the term gender instead of sex.