There is no free will Will is limited by ones nature and conditional to ones position

April 28, 2015, 12:14 pm

Agree31 Disagree15

67%
33%

The debate "There is no free will Will is limited by ones nature and conditional to ones position" was started by I_Voyager on April 28, 2015, 12:14 pm. 31 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 15 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

Sosocratese posted 2 arguments, I_Voyager posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
Getmurked posted 2 arguments, Sosocratese posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.

I_Voyager, Sosocratese, Daph, ibrahim, Violet, DarkAngelAnarchist, skyfrancois_97, action007man and 23 visitors agree.
Getmurked, AnkGanu, pit531, jonatron5, Benzdick and 10 visitors disagree.

I_Voyager
replied to...

I've been there too... My cracked phone sometimes likes to randomly select things on the screen, which means I've had a number of "agrees" turn into "disagrees"

There should maybe be a "Are you sure you want to change your vote?"

4 years, 2 months ago

Man, I hate that you can't lock in your vote. Keeps accidentally changing my vote while scrolling through arguments

4 years, 2 months ago

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you're looking for. I'm making a deductive argument, not an inductive....

Let's get a definition out here and see if we can agree on what free will even is before we continue. My working definition of free will is this: the ability of an agent to make decisions, choose actions, and choose different options freely, without any deterministic factors. That those choices are free of determinism and that fate is non-existent.

Let's move through some of the arguments I tried making because it seems like I either didn't explain them well enough or you just didn't get them.

Let's start with the question about lack of knowledge:

First off, I don't know what you mean about satisfaction if my current state. Could you elaborate on that. I don't know where that comes into play.

Now let's talk about knowledge as a limiting factor of free will. If I had you choose any movie in the world again, you are determined to choose one which you knew and could think of at the time. Therefore, knowledge is a deterministic principle of choice.

We'll take brain chemistry next. If you have a chemical imbalance and are feeling a certain emotion based on that, whether it be happy, sad, indifferent, etc... Doesn't matter, but those emotions are deterministic of the choices you'll make.

Your social upbringing will have deterministic influences on your choices. If you're brought up Christian you will make different choices than if you're brought up Hindu, etc....

So our choices are a product of various deterministic influences and not free from them. That's why I believe that the traditional interpretation of free will is false. Instead, we are a collection of experiences, emotions, and knowledge that drive our decision making process.

4 years, 2 months ago
I_Voyager
replied to...

The more opportunity you unlock, the more will there is. The more self-knowledge you have, the more you can direct your own action. Our current system is already based on this premise in part, merging with certain religious or ideological views like (respectively) "You are a sinner who can never stop being so. Death cannot be conquered except spiritually." and "The current system is the best system that can ever be. Anything else will only resemble the lesser states of the past."

I also think that technology could in the future allow us to be modified and improved. This should include the ability to re-design the brain. You could potentially add new functions or qualities of self-control. But I won't argue I have evidence for this. I only say that we are always increasingly better understand the human condition and conditions of physics. In most things it's better to bet we'll figure it out if we apply a scientific method than otherwise... But certainly no evidence that we can achieve transhumanism. I just think it's plausible.

And no, I'm not content where I am. I've lost friends to mental illness. I live in a world that asks be to abandon my self-respect or morality for success, and expects me to sacrifice such proportionate to how successful I want to be. Rather than hang my head and accept the powers that be I'd like to do what we always do as a species and find new and better ways of doing things. So fewer people have to starve or be enslaved or blown up or go insane or give into evil.

4 years, 2 months ago

where is your evidence that theres more free will that we dont have. what are we so hampered by? we still can choose what and how we live im our own standards of society, is that enough for you? you have to know the unknown? can you not be satisfied with your current state? if you can choose how you livr and what you do, thats enough free will to go around

4 years, 2 months ago

@getmurked
Im gonna pose the same thought experiment to you as Sam Harris does and see how you feel about it after.

Think of a movie. You can choose any movie. Doesn't matter which one. This is you at the most free. There are absolutely no societal, no cultural, no legal, and no religious factors limiting your choice. But, in reality you aren't able to choose any movie. You can only choose from a select list of movies because you don't know all the movies ever made. Furthermore, you may simply not think of a bunch of movies that you know, but can't access at this point in time for one reason or another.

This is a constraint of free will. This is the limiting factor of free will. It's limited because it is dependent on our experiences, our knowledge, and our momentary wims of forgetfulness, etc.... Other factors are brain trauma, chemical imbalances, drugs, etoh, etc... Given all these factors, our decisions aren't free, rather they are a product of our experiences and external influences.


If you extrapolate that further, you have societal restrictions inhibiting your ability to choose freely, religious restrictions, cultural, legal, etc... So choices are limited and never truly free.

4 years, 2 months ago

i disagree. we are free to live how we want, as god has let usx or if your athiest, we evolves to be a free species, capable.of choosimg how we live

4 years, 2 months ago

I would agree. Perhaps the best arguments on this topic were made by Sam Harris. Brilliant critique of free will.

4 years, 2 months ago
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