The debate "There's only two genders male and female" was started by
April 9, 2019, 12:31 pm.
159 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 83 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
XavYourSavior posted 2 arguments, Gray_son posted 1 argument, JDAWG9693 posted 16 arguments, MagicMicah posted 1 argument, Willyis posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
Nemiroff posted 30 arguments, Sudar posted 1 argument, LucyTheDebatorQueen posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
XavYourSavior, chrissurvivor, Gray_son, sagarparab, GuyManDude, Leftist_Tears, Emblazon, tniromin, toriboo, GreatDivider, shaneyboo, VedicPresupp, Syrkk, freakofnaturespitbucket, ronjinz, kingortiz15, hhh2000, MagicMicah, InfinityMachine, Willyis, lukeluckynuke123, Aditya_17, northofsanity and 136 visitors agree.
redranger34, tenyiyi, MADHURA, UnleashedPatriotism, Sudar, Nemiroff, LucyTheDebatorQueen and 76 visitors disagree.
I know there is more then 1 Gender!??
How is Gender what you define your self as?
Male/ female is biology.
masculine/ feminine is sociology.
Its basic human biology. If you have a penis you're a boy, if you have a vagina you're a girl. God didn't get it wrong, mother nature didn't get it wrong, natural selection didn't get it wrong.
I define myself as American. does that mean American is my gender? or does that mean your missing parts of its definition?
No. Gender is what you define yourself as, sex is what you are (female or Male.)
well gender issues tend to be tender issues lmao. I thought you were being more general including things like race issues, religion, etc. didnt even register that as a typo
I meant shaming for tender issues. Obviously shaming as a practice in general has its place
although I do condone shaming in certain circumstances, usually as a last resort.
I've done it here frequently with trolls, but I always try to engage them honestly first. then point out their bad behavior politely. if all else fails, I believe shaming or counter trolling to be better then censorship like blocking or banning. it is more likely to lead to behavior change in some instances.
I guess I can see it like the political spectrum. Alright, I guess we agree
I know. I wasnt talking about you. but large parts of our society does.
I have never condoned shaming, just to be clear.
if I believe there to be infinite points on the spectrum, then it would be a silly and impossible task to try to name them all.
I dont see a point to labeling specific 3rd genders. i think the point is simply to acknowledge and allow people to not be the expected binary without intolerance and shaming.
Then what's the point of labeling at all?
we dont do calculations to assign a specific spot on the political spectrum for every individual. most just self identify if they are moderate or extreme based on their feelings and beliefs. I see no need to quantify their gender. what is the purpose/benefit of it?
I mean, to direct where one fits on the spectrum, we would need to assign most objects and actions gender roles and one could average where they are on the spectrum.
This is why I prefer to keep gender and sex synonymous because it gets too complicated if gender becomes a different thing.
if the various aspects of personality are character traits, then gender would qualify.
I dont understand your actions and objects point. many languages do assign gender to objects but that has nothing to do with any modern movement. but I'm not sure how that is necessary.
Would gender, being a spectrum between a masculine and feminine pole, be a character trait? Because that's how I would describe being masculine and feminine.
Also, if that is what gender is, then we would have to assign near every action and object with a gender role to decide approximately where on the spectrum one is. Because if it's simply how one feels, it literally doesn't matter. It only matters once there are externalities.
If we think male and female only gender here, then we must learn about mankind. Avoiding transgender doesn't mean keep us in upper side. Once they starts growing, they also take comfortable zone here.
gender dysphoria isnt a gender identity, it's a clinical diagnosis. and it is what I was talking about with my trauma theory in the previous post.
Where would Gender Dysphoria fit, though? Would you say the same as transgender?
also, I'm unsure if transgender means the same thing as transsexual. I see different results based on how I search.
transgender are likely simply men born with feminine personalities or vice versa. the dissatisfaction with their birth sex, imo, isnt something related to their gender identity but likely some extreme childhood shaming or attempts at personality reconditioning. that is totally my hypothesis, I don't have evidence to back that up. just logic.
But, with gender being a spectrum between the feminine and masculine pole, where does "transgender" fit into that?/Where is the line drawn to be considered "transgender?
I can agree with that
sorry for being technical but categories implies I would feel more in common with a girly man then a boyish women. I frequently find that not to be the case.
these categories are not seperate boxes but closer to overlapping circles. however a spectrum is the most accurate way to describe this. and yes, this spectrum has 2 poles.
Okay, maybe two gender categories is a better term that we could agree with?
meanwhile sex is not 2 extremes of a spectrum. its 2 dots. no mixture, no variability. 2 options. xx or xy. 1 or 0. yes or no.
it's a spectrum with 2 extremes, if that's what you mean.
but no person will ever reach perfect masculinity or femininity. those are ideals. the points were we fall are somewhere between those extremes... and those points are infinite.
not at all.
sex, as I said, is binary.
take the most feminine guy and the most masculine guy. they are both equally Male. you simply are or you arent.
can you say the same about masculinity and femininity? are they all or nothing? are all masculine people equally masculine? are they exclusive, allowing no mixtures?
Y'know what? I can agree with those definitions. This would still, however, admit to there only being two sexes/genders. Am I right to assume that?
in my opinion?
well I've never heard the term "gender expression before this convo, but without looking up the official definitions, I would define
sex: the unchanging, binary, physical feature that is xx/xy. I believe there are no disagreements there.
gender: ones own sense of masculinity/ femininity which are subjective social things as the masculinity of a more "civilized" society (like ancient rome) might seem feminine to more simpler societies (like the tribes around Rome). like frequent bathing, or more extremely, manscaping.
gender expression: the expression of ones gender (not including fake acting for a dare, totally different). this distinction might be useful for a sociological research paper, but day to day I believe this term to be entirely worthless and interchangeable with gender.
can you explain how (sex) expression would be an expression of social features when the term sex is a physical feature?
Could I ask you to expressly define what, in your opinion, the terms "sex," "gender," and "gender expression" mean?
"just because someone acts feminine doesnt mean they are a woman"
absolutely. and that fits in perfectly with my differentiation between sex and gender. or as you call it, sex and gender expression.
corpses have physical traits. if they "express" them, then they must be able to "not express" them. otherwise it isnt an expression, it's just a fact. do you not agree?
also, once again, I agree cave women, and even women from different cultures, expressed themselves differently. because gender/gender expression have nothing to do with ones physical, unchanging sex. it's entirely rooted in society... aka social... aka gender.
your own points are the basis of my argument and fit perfectly into my definition (that is also the agreed upon definition is most modern academia)
You can wear heels and simply express "tallness". And, yes, corpses can express physical traits.
And, what I was trying to say with my last response was that cave women didn't express themselves the same, yes, because our society has changed. But, men also don't express themselves the same as cave men. But, we are still men and women. And, to continue my previous point, just because someone acts feminine does not mean that they're a woman.
that is unknown since what we are debating is the definition of gender. and considering your use of gender expression, gender cannot = sex.
unless you think the braindead and even corpses can have expressions. I don't believe you've addressed any of my arguments with that response. forgive me if I'm responding to fast and you are typing more.
Common traits for different sexes being socially influenced does not mean that gender is a social construct, either.
I guess the brain dead and even corpses can have expressions as they can also be tall or fat... but once again that doesnt make sense. as you said, the only way to express being tall is to be tall. it shows a flaw when you use a term in its own example.
putting on heels may allow you to emulate tallness, but what your trying to express is presence, maybe confidence, your not expressing the essence of tallness. that isnt a thing.
gender expression is not an expression of sex because wearing a skirt or making certain feminine gestures are not inherent. cave women didnt do most of those things. women in non western cultures often dont do many of the things we consider normal for women in America. nothing about gender expression has anything to do with sex by default. it is all social. it is all gender. sex expression is not a thing. and therefore gender cannot = sex.
You express being tall or fat by being tall or fat. Or, I guess you could wear padding or heels if you wanted to pretend to be tall or fat. Just like how, when I dress up, i am pretending to be/expressing that I am feminine, but not that I am female. If I put heels on, I am not tall; if I put a dress on, I am not female.
ultimately however I believe that your term gender expression (with which my main problem is its unnecessary and inefficient length), contradicts gender = sex.
you didnt address how physical features can be expressions. how does one express being tall, or fat, being human, or having xx/xy. you express masculinity, not maleness. since sex is a physical feature, sex expression is nonsense. therefore for gender expression to have any meaning, gender cannot = sex.
what we express are feelings, ideas, emotions, beliefs, knowledge. all intangibles.
I cant say I relate to enjoying dressing up of any kind, but especially as the opposite gender, and especially if I'm not pretending to be a specific character like Halloween.
I wouldnt call the dressing as being a third gender, rather it would a result of third genderness. it does Express something that is not by definition masculine (most men I know, and the common stereotype, hate clothes shopping).
now it is true that one can easily Express any gender, just like a pure straight macho man might lose a bet and express femininity for not honest reasons. however I think that is irrelevant to the topic, I would consider that acting, and acting is not itself controversial. what is controversial are people trying to Express their true feelings, and find a way to describe those feelings.
If you mean the cross dressing example, then none. I just enjoy cross dressing because it's fun to dress up sometimes, but it is in no way any form of transgenderism or third gender or anything. Also, I don't agree with your definitions, but I could agree with the first two (gender and sex) for the sake of conversation. But, gender expression is not necessarily an expression of YOUR gender, it is just an expression of gender. So, I am not female when I cross dress, I am simply a male in female clothes. And, the reason I have been using this example so much is partly because I know it but also because it shows that expression is not directly tied to gender, and that's the main point I'm getting at with this example because earlier you were talking about how masculine and feminine are genders while male and female are sexes, and I'm trying to show that masculine, androgynous, and feminine are expressions, not genders themselves.
as far as I know:
transgender are those who ID as the other sex, some have dysphoria, others may not.
transsexual are those who actively switch and definitely have dysphoria in almost all cases.
and 3rd gender do not ID as either gender, not dysphoria, and just act different.
you seem to be guiding this conversation to your specific example. I just want to make sure your ok with this before we go on. your example does sound interesting considering the situation and belief combo.
and if your ok with it, where would you put yourself on the list (including the option: other)
you believe gender and sex are synonymous
I believe gender and gender expression are synonymous
how can we settle this
now I looked up the definitions and got these:
sex: your biological male/female
gender: the sex you "feel" like
gender expression: the expression of that feeling.
If gender = sex then gender expression should = sex expression. but you cant express what is obvious and unchangeable. its like expressing humanity (in a physical sense, not the moral/kind usage).
if expressing your physical xx/xy makes no sense, because that is what sex is as we will all agree. then the word gender expression makes no sense, at least by your definition. makes perfect sense with the currently accepted distinction. expressing feelings is what expression is.
No, what I was trying to say was that, even if I, a male, cross dress, I am still male, even if I express myself as feminine. Gender expression and gender are very different things; different but related. Gender and sex, being synonymous, describe your biological sex. Masculine, androgynous, and feminine describe your gender expression.
so I dont think trans people And gender dysphoria are relevant to this conversation. I know I took us in that direction, but it is still a valid point regarding extreme examples of commom human brain variability.
your posts seems to have a contradiction.
first you say that gender fluidity (using examples instead of the term) is normal.
then you call gender fluidity the term abnormal.
if gender and sex are synonyms, then what do you call the masculine/ feminine and behavior variability that you yourself experienced? would that qualify as mentally ill and gender dysphoric?
gender dysphoria involves feeling physical distress over the gender. it's like panic attack or clinical depression, it isn't normal. simply expressing yourself anywhere on the gender spectrum is not dysphoria or illness. it also has absolutely nothing to do with gender dysphoria. trans people generally believe in 2 genders, they are just the wrong one.
if they believe themselves to be some mixture or lack of gender, switching sexes will accomplish nothing. these issues are frequently confused.
Firstly, pansexual is strictly on the "gay-straight" spectrum.
Secondly, I would say that feminine, androgynous, and masculine are gender expressions. For example, I am a male, but I have crossdressed before, and I was feminine but still male, similarly as you have said about Prince (I think it was you, Nemiroff).
Thirdly, RandomGuy is right in saying that gender and sex no longer being considered synonyms is simply people trying to normalize a mental illness (gender dysphoria). Obviously we should not shun the I'll, but telling them that they are okay how they are is not the right direction, either. Those are both extreme solutions, just on opposite sides. We should treat them. This is one of the things I greatly agree with Ben Shapiro and use his argument where he relates those with Gender Dysphoria to his grandfather with Paranoid Schizophrenia. I can relate as my uncle also has Paranoid Schizophrenia, but with his medicinal treatment, he can live normally now.
gender is not personality. personally is a very complex think made up of many aspects. your gender is one of them.
if you call it a synonym then what do you refer to the masculinity/femininity variability amongst people? like Tomboys or effeminate men.
sex is the biological xy ex
gender is the behavioral aspects we associate with sex. like dress, and the way they carrie themselves.
if you define pansexual it will either be on the feminine-masculine spectrum or the gay-straight spectrum. no attack helicopters or unicorns.
personality, noun, ?p?rs??nal?d?, individual's distinctive character.
Nemiroff, I believe you're describing personality over gender.
gender, noun, ?jend?r, either of two sexes
either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
Sex and gender are synonyms. People are trying to change it to normalise a mental illness.
Let's say they weren't. If they weren't then whats the purpose of having a made up gender? Like pansexual.
Prince was clearly a male, but was very feminine.
maybe a responds longer than a single sentence might help.
BASICALLY female and male
unfortunately your pointing out a typo on a cellphone app only reinforces the fact that you are stupid. previously proven by your deep post where you called someone else stupid with nothing of actual value included, again.
gender is the social aspect of sex, and that aspect is represented by our clothing, behavior, and personality. aka, masculine vs feminine.
I think your using gender as a perfect synonym for sex, and that just doesnt make sense.
The two binary genders are male and female, non binary people shouldn't be viewed as a third gender but rather as neither of the two. Masculine and feminine are not genders, those are adjectives for the way you express yourself via clothes, personality, etc.
you don't even know the difference in "your" and "you're" yet I'm stupid. lmao. there's two genders male and female. Maybe you're a dumb drop out but you're ignorant af.
and unlike Male and female, masculinly and femininity can be at different levels allowing for mixtures and lots of variety.
the genders are: masculine and femine.
Male and female are the sexes.
your stupid. (returning his language from another tread)