Torture should not be used to obtain information from suspected terrorists

June 5, 2016, 12:30 pm

Agree32 Disagree31

51%
49%

The debate "Torture should not be used to obtain information from suspected terrorists" was started by SwaggerPoptart on June 5, 2016, 12:30 pm. 32 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 31 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

Nemiroff posted 1 argument, JakobBoghora posted 1 argument, M3phisto posted 3 arguments, historybuff posted 2 arguments, PoliticsAsUsual posted 10 arguments, neveralone posted 3 arguments to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 4 arguments, NotoriousBishop posted 3 arguments, Yanksxx21 posted 2 arguments, neveralone posted 5 arguments to the disagreers part.

SwaggerPoptart, Nemiroff, JLabang123, DemonLlama, cmt11, JakobBoghora, MathDebating01, ZenithOmega, PoliticsAsUsual, KiwiSheepTrainer and 22 visitors agree.
Bodaciouslady16, Fallaciae, mherzer, DB8101, NotoriousBishop, jack_tim_45, dalton7532, moneybagboyz, yashwanth, Yanksxx21, Blue_ray, Ethan8336, harshita, sabrina, allyssa, Rajat and 15 visitors disagree.

PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

exactly. now that we settled the WWJD and unchristianity issue, we just have to examine the effectiveness.

anyone with actual Intel (top leaders) is willing to die for it, but why would they not just give false info? how will you verify? morality aside, IT DOESN'T WORK.

then bring morality back in and it's a horrible practice.

I won't be replying back to this topic, I recommend doing research regarding torture's historic success record.

2 years, 7 months ago

k then I read it wrong and got a wrong meaning I apologize. idk if ur wrong on torture I would say God does not stand by it and i don't want to either

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

those aren't insults. what do you think jests would say regarding this topic? am I wrong

2 years, 7 months ago

sorry thought u meant me insulting u.
"keep torturing people. that's what jesus would do."
"very Christian of you."
"no real Christian can justify torture"

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

you just said there was no insult, then said it's funny when I'm insulting you... please point out the insult, or stop making false accusations.

2 years, 7 months ago

their wasn't one just stating it's funny when u try to insult me constantly when this won't help ur argument.

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

what was the insult?

2 years, 7 months ago

simple u check it like u even said.

nope I wont I'm saying that it could technically work though I would try to make a deal first.actually it has

Haha another personal attack ur on a roll man. idk what Jesus would think but I will say what I think. do u even believe in God?

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

you are totally ignoring the fact. there is no way to tell if the info your getting is good or not and people will give you info even when they don't know anything...

whatever, your just going to say "well when it works it's great" even tho it never works. this convo is going nowhere.

keep torturing people. that's what jesus would do.

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

haha no I'm not ignoring that fact. I think if someone's willing to torture me for info that unless I'm prepared to die I'm going to tell them. that is human nature. though nice try with the insult keep doing it u might get through or u might make all who read this see a little boy stamping around getting angry.:-)

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

and your going to ignore the fact that you don't get any good Intel from torture? are you torturing them for fun? very Christian of you.

2 years, 7 months ago

if they cooperate then were good.

idk if Yanks is but I am and I only support it if there's no other way. though the deal thing would definitely be my first try

2 years, 7 months ago

especially considering the fact that you get no good intel, no real Christian can justify torture... except an extremist nut job like yanks.

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

making a deal can have instant results if they cooperate, and as I said, no benefits until verified.

however torture gives false Intel in short time and in long time. in short time you can't even verify the info and can make horrible mistakes based on the bad Intel including bombing wrong locations, killing innocent civilians, or walking into a trap.

maybe making a deal won't work in every situation, but torture doesn't work in ANY situation. there is no defense of torture except barbaric vengence that I want no part in.

2 years, 7 months ago

that is a good way if not time sensitive.
idk if every time is true.
could u go more in detail please
I'm explaining how I got to my end road with logic.

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

actually they would. if you promise to release them or time off. they don't actually get anything until Intel is verified, so lying does nothing for them.

on the otherhand, lying under torture will get the immediate torture to stop. and has PROVEN throughout time to be exactly what happens EVERYTIME.

the belief that torture work is just a common sense assumption like the earth is stationary that sounds right until you actually examine the evidence and then the logic starts breaking apart.

@neveralone I think your logic is extremely flawed as your just guiding yourself to the conclusion you already established for yourself.

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

the point isn't whether terrorists deserve torture, but whether we should torture people knowing we gain nothing but sadistic pleasure out of it (definitely not reliable intel).

clearly you are in favor of torturing people with no gain aside from barbaric justice, and whether your victims deserve it or not, I see no difference between them and you.

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

He does not admit it works. He says it can work under very specific circumstances in a movie.

I sent you a link that explains how it works. Basically by building a rapport with them they are 14 times more likely to provide information and 4 times more likely to confess.

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I was simply stating that he admits it works. maybe not the best way but it does. again can u go more in detail about why ur way works instead of dancing around it. or admit that it doesnt

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

First line in the article.

This article is the second post in a series of articles on Gillo Pontecorvo's film "The Battle for Algiers"

It also details three main reasons torture doesn't work. Your source just destroyed your own position.

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

haha what movie must of overlooked it

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

no just got a bunch of Trump stuff. he said it worked in some situations.

2 years, 7 months ago

on top of which he is talking about a movie he is not describing the historical events.

2 years, 7 months ago

lol did you even read that article? he said that in some limited circumstances it can work. but ultimately it is self defeating. his example of using torture ended in their defeat. if that's the best example you can find if the usefulness of torture then you should probably just give up.

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I would first see if I have wings...nope haha. I
just saying if anyone on this app is the terrorist in ur method would they give the info? I wouldn't. it seems very illogical.
http://onviolence.com/?e=69
both me and thus guy don't like torture but we both admit it works technically. can u get more in detail why being buddy's with a terrorist works?

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

I don't want to torture other people because I have a conscience and morals. You may not have a problem with being as bad or worse than them, but I would rather be a better person than that.

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH!

Stop using your opinion as proof. Look into it. Humane methods have been repeatedly shown to be better, more successful, less cruel, and more reliable. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant to whether it is true.

We do like logic, but your logic is flawed and you are refusing to learn when presented with information. If you saw a bird and assumed that flying was as simple as spreading your arms, you could logically argue that position. I wouldn't recommended stepping off a building to test it. Thay is what you are doing. In the face of research and proof, you are blindly following your opinion and reaching for a way to justify it. If you can disprove my evidence, do so, but stop arguing that because you don't believe it it can't be true.

2 years, 7 months ago

Torture them all you God damn want

2 years, 7 months ago

don't treat terrorists with respect they are god damn barbaric disgusting creatures

2 years, 7 months ago

though we if this actually works. not saying it does because it doesn't logically sound like it but if it did then obviously I would support it but this honestly doesn't sound logical

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

@history so if I gave u a dozen of experts who said eating ur poo is good for u and gave u a ton of facts u would do it? that's what ur saying here

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

actually if they confessed they would be set free because by doing do they confessed their sin and the people believed that doing so meant they could be redeemed. but back to what I was saying. would u confess said secrets just because u have something in common with the enemy?

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

huh I thought u liked logic did u not?

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

exactly. I'm not a sheep

2 years, 7 months ago

it's amazing how the Salem witch trials found so many witches... despite the non existence of magic, through confessions from people who knew that confession means death.

ah the unrivaled accuracy of torture acquired information....

2 years, 7 months ago

we have provided studies. evidence and expert opinions. he has provided anecdotal evidence of someone who has certainly never tortured anyone. he has offered no proof whatsoever. since he has absolutely no background in interrogation his personal opinion has no value.

2 years, 7 months ago

historybluff. Maybe because he refuses to blindly belive autority based arguments. There must be logic and critical thinking in a good debate. Not just accepting sayings of others just because they are 'more experienced'.

2 years, 7 months ago

why do we have to keep saying this? you know absolutely nothing about getting information from someone. people with infinitely more experience at this say torture doesn't work, at all. why do you think your opinion means anything at all compared to theirs and the research they have done?

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

ok let's think of this logically. let's say ur the terrorist. would u give me info that was crucial just because we both liked the red Sox?

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

You say that, but you have nothing but your own biased opinion to back it. I pointed out that it has been demonstrated to be 4 times as effective as torture. Unless you have some other proof, you are simply wrong.

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

the methods u show (no offense) sound stupid and wouldn't work. it's like ur saying if u become friends he will tell his deepest secrets. would u if the enemy was playing nice? also again this is a time sensitive scenario. if it wasn't then torture shouldn't be used.

2 years, 7 months ago
M3phisto
replied to...

Truth serum is not 100% working and also its expensive to produce.. And the generals may have sensitive information yes, but they are also pretty smart and very endurant well trained agents who will most likely play with your nerves and make you lose your time and effort rather that giving up something.

2 years, 7 months ago

On the other side, the info may not pe reliable but can be verified then confirmed. Its like knowing an answer to a test but not finding how to do the calculus. Its exactly the same, you know the final answer but not the intermediate links. This can be helpful and save an important amount of lives.

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Because it doesn't work. You are circling without researching. Torture does not work. Full stop. If you want information, there are better ways. The site I gave you details a method 4 times more effective that isn't cruel. Why would we torture?

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

so u don't know how much a general would know? I'm not talking about foot soldiers. they rarely get told anything.

please give examples.on a side note why don't we use truth serum?

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

the site u gave was interesting but sounds unlikely to work or get many people to do it.

2 years, 7 months ago

You are speaking about immediate information, first, you Cannot! know what is in the other's mind. You will never know if he really has that info. Secondly, that info can be diformed or manipulated in such a way that it can cause waay more harm than good. Torture is a primitive and inhuman method with unreliable info.

If you are still considering torturing people in the era of 'Big Brother' NSA allied with CIA... then my friend you should probably read more. Comeon, they have a thousand other methods than fking torture.

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/383698

2 years, 7 months ago

so what would u do instead if u needed that info right then and there?

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

k will try to find it again

2 years, 7 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Unless you can provide a source, I have never heard of such a thing. Everything I have ever read on the subject agreed that torture doesn't produce reliable information, and therefore serves no real purpose.

2 years, 7 months ago

I don't think in some u will have time. some things are times sensitive. lets say a country was going to shoot missiles at urs in 4 hours and u have no clue where it will come from but he does. what do u do?

u can't lie to urself. I can't remember the site or find it now but it talked about some mental torture that made it where u a) have to tell the truth and b) doesn't even let them realise u did it.

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

you don't get enough time to do what things? imprison them? why not?

and where do you get the idea that mental torture somehow gives out good info? that's nonsense. torture is torture, and people want to make it stop... they will say anything. mental or physical is irrelevant.

2 years, 7 months ago

u don't get enough time to do those things. u need a fast process to get the info.

I mean get real info not false. which mental torture shows that it gets the real info.

that's what with physical not mental. again how would u get real info. they could just lie to u too.

let's say the info they have is needed right then and they won't tell. u could save hundreds getting this info

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

imprison, try, and punish them.

there's nothing to get out of them. are you really going to torture someone knowing full well that you won't get any useful Intel? are you just torturing people for fun now? cause your not adding anything to our security with false information.

aside from the holding on to the moral highground... TORTURE DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY USEFUL INFORMATION. people will lie and say anything to make it stop. I would. you would. it's stupid, useless, and you will only dirty your own soul while reinforcing the actions and determination of those who want to do us harm.

what would I do? ignore them and let them rot like any other prisoner, or yes, offer them a deal in case they actually do have verifiable true info of actual value.

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

it's probably more agonizing. depending on the person. depends on what kind some are like physical but does no bodily harm others are like made so that the only way they could be lying is only to themselves. again there are mental tortures that make it where they can't lie unless they lie to their self. what would u do instead if u have listed time to get info out of a terrorist who refuses to cooperate?

2 years, 7 months ago
PoliticsAsUsual
replied to...

how does mental torture have no lasting effects!!! the body heals much faster than the mind.

where did you get the idea that mental torture is somehow less agonizing and is any more reliable? how would you avoid the same problem of people telling you whatever you want to hear (true or not) in order to stop the torture?

2 years, 7 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

physical torture doesn't work. mental torture works great and has no lasting effect and should be used on terrorist

2 years, 7 months ago

trump said on Monday he no longer wants to torture terror suspects because it doesn't work. this is yet more evidence that trump lied about emotional subjects to manipulate people into voting for him.

2 years, 7 months ago

So the government, should take risks?

2 years, 11 months ago

Terrorists are rarely directly associated with the organisations.

2 years, 11 months ago

it does provide information, the study that says that it provides useless info was done by people who were already against it to begin with it, it's like asking a vegan to have a study of how meat is bad for us, and it does scare the suspect into giving us useful information

2 years, 11 months ago

torture has been proven to not work. you seem to be under the impression that it is a useful tool. it isn't. it is a barbaric waste of time.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

so let's keep torturing people despite knowing that it provides no useful information.

2 years, 11 months ago

So what should they do, ask nicely, or make a deal with them, that would take time from their punishment or even immunity, that would be idiotic

2 years, 11 months ago

torture shouldn't be used to get information from anyone. simply because it doesn't work. it is a terrible method that has been proven to be ineffective.

3 years, 1 month ago
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