Trump 2016 make America great again

February 2, 2016, 4:21 pm

Agree8 Disagree28

22%
78%

The debate "Trump 2016 make America great again" was started by ProudAmerican888 on February 2, 2016, 4:21 pm. 8 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 28 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most people are against to this statement.

ProudAmerican888 posted 8 arguments to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 13 arguments, PsychDave posted 14 arguments, Alex posted 29 arguments to the disagreers part.

oscar90000, ProudAmerican888, fLipp3r and 5 visitors agree.
historybuff, ReadyToBegin, PsychDave, Alex, StarSoul, confident, DubZero3, progressive, futuremaster, wmd, debateisgreat, llemponen, The_Executioner, meduka, WaspToxin, flash4311, RyanWakefield, Band_Nerd_24 and 10 visitors disagree.

Good job for Trump, he knows how to hire good people. if the trump business is good, you don't say it's trump, when an area goes bankrupt you blame trump. why Is that? I don't like trump, but I know everything he does is not terrible.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

"Trump is no genius, however if he were dumb he would have lost 1 million not made multimillion." You are partially right. Since Trump is dumb, he has lost billions. His casino went into about a billion dollars of debt, then filed for bankruptcy. That's just one of his failed businesses. The reason he stayed rich is because he kept his personal money separate from the businesses, not something entrepreneurs are able to do. So yes, he is an idiot and dumb, but his accountants are smart enough to keep him from failing utterly.

3 years, 10 months ago

no we aren't saying you have to be born rich to be in the 1%. we're saying that the vast majority of them were. Self made rich people are usually very gifted. but they are the very small minority. wealth begets wealth. if aren't completely incompetent you can take a large amount of money and make it grow (like a small million dollar loan) because you can hire people to make it grow for you. the fact that 91.5% of the wealthy were born with money should highlight that for you. the odds of making into the upper echelon are incredibly low if you aren't born into it.

"Trump is no genius, however if he were dumb he would have lost 1 million, not made multimillion. however you claim he did it, he did it. that's a fact." no not really. he hired alot of people and they did it. granted he was involved. but to give him sole credit for it is simply not realistic. especially when he has bankrupted companies.

3 years, 10 months ago

stop making strawman arguments, where did I say it's not an advantage to be born in the top 1%. your implying that to be successfull you have to get lucky and get born with money.

Trump is no genius, however if he were dumb he would have lost 1 million, not made multimillion. however you claim he did it, he did it. that's a fact. stop saying that making more money out of a loan doest mean your successful. that is the definition of succes.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Because a since spelling error is a mark of an utter lack of intelligence.

3 years, 10 months ago

please stick to the discussions. trying to attack me personally, especially on something as trivial as minor spelling mistakes. and even more so when I'm writing this on a phone. it isn't helpful to the discussion and makes you look weak.

3 years, 10 months ago

While there has been an increase in the number of self made billionaires, they are still the vast minority. In 2014, 34 of the top 400 (8.5%) had brought themselves out of poverty.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

I am in no way disparaging the effort or intelligence of these people, but to claim that being born to a wealthy family doesn't give inherent advantages is to ignore logic and real life evidence.

3 years, 10 months ago

historybuff, what's "rediculous" is your spelling...Calling donald trump unintelligent yet you don't spell "ridiculous" correctly.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Where to start with your terrible arguments.

First, Trump had several companies go bankrupt. So you are right, a stupid person would have lost the company, as he eventually did. It doesn't take much intellect to hire someone to run things that is smarter than you, so you may want to do some research before claiming Trump is a financial genius.

Yes, the American dream is that you can start with nothing and become successful. The flaw is that people can only be successful when compared to others. If everyone is wealthy, no one is since services and products will rise. That is why it remains the American dream, not the American experience.

Could you show me where I said 99 out of 100 successful people are born into the top 1%? If not, could you try not using strawman arguments and putting words in my mouth? I said if you are born wealthy, you have an advantage. If you are born in the top 1% you have the advantage over 99% of the population. Does that math make sense to you?

Let's look at the Forbes wealthiest Americans list and see how many came from nothing and how many from wealthy families.


Bill Gates parents were a successful later and his mother was on the board of directors for several First Interstate BancSystem, and his grandmother was the president of a bank. Not the richest family in the nation, but wealthy enough to send him to private schools and we'll connected, so he had advantages from am early age.


Warren Buffett?s father was a congressman, so again while he was not coming from immense wealth, his family was never destitute and had connections.


Larry Ellison was raised in a middle class family, so he did not have the advantages from an early age that many others on the list had. His family was comfortable enough to send him to school, but he did achieve the American dream you described.


Charles Koch took over the company his grandfather, who was very wealthy from railroads and newspapers, had started.


David Koch, see the description just above of his brother.


Christy Walton inherited Walmart.


Are you noticing a pattern here? I will link the article from Wikipedia, since it gives the names, position and where they made their money. You will notice that many inherited their companies, and those who made their own largely come from wealthy backgrounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Forbes_400

3 years, 10 months ago

it seems like your saying 99 of 100 successful people are born into the top 1%. let me tell you the amount of successful people in america is greater then 1%. more successful people come from the bottom 99% then the top 1%. your logic is incredibly flawed.

3 years, 10 months ago

you are familiar with the American dream right? I know sanders doesn't like it, but in America we believe you can start from nothing and become great.

what would a stupid person do with a million dollors? not make it into many more million dollors as trump has done. I watched a tv show once about peopke who won millions on the lottery, and then lost it all in a few years because of stupidity. if trump was stupid hw would have lost the loan, and the company. not only has he not lost it, but he has multiplied the money.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Rappers make money because people relate to their music. When they rap about gangs, violence, sex and money, people relate to either the experiences or the views. They are also very eloquent in their own way since to freestyle you need to be very good with words.

Success is often luck. If you are born to a family with money, and your father can give you a small loan of a million dollars, you are ahead of 99% of people before you do anything. People who start at the bottom and become rich almost invariably have to be smart or very good at something, but those who are lucky enough to be born to a family with money and connections don't really need the same level of ability. The expression "it's not what you know, it who you know" is very accurate in many businesses.

3 years, 10 months ago

if your smart enough to not get caught. your smart in that way. take rap music. you may think those rapers are no smart, but they are smart enough to make money of of gibberish.

3 years, 10 months ago

good at something doesn't not mean smart. if you are good at being corrupt you will likely be successful in high business.

3 years, 10 months ago

I have never said anything against the poor in general. the lazy poor who chose not to work, I don't like them.

I think successful people have to be smart in some way. I'm not saying they are good people, and I'm not saying trump is a good person. I'm saying he is successful, and to be successful you must know what your doing. succes is very rarely luck, if your successful you are Usally good at something.

3 years, 10 months ago

so clearly buffoons do become the head of multi million dollar corporations. I have to ask Alex. why do you automatically think money makes people better? you constantly make disparaging remarks about poor people and remark that if someone is rich they are good or smart. being the head of a company doesn't mean you're smart. it certainly doesn't mean you're a good person.

3 years, 10 months ago

the only thing out of those I'd call him is racist towards muslems. that's all you can accuse him of, besides having crazy ideas.
I'll agree I don't want trump.

3 years, 10 months ago

Buffon "a rediculous but amusing person". the things he says are rediculous. watching the hate come out of his mouth and having unintelligent/racist/xenophobic/homophobic/sexist morons look up to him is amusing. also watching him lose will be amusing.

3 years, 10 months ago

ridiculous, yes, he's not a buffoon. buffoons don't become the head of multi million dollor businesses.

3 years, 10 months ago

true. the majority of people see trump as the rediculous buffoon that he is.

3 years, 10 months ago

Anyways, I think the debate got off track...

3 years, 10 months ago

the current system doesn't work well. but claiming that it is easy to fix is absurd. supporting someone with such a stupid plan is also rediculous.

3 years, 10 months ago

I've found that not having a plan is bad, and using a plan that has failed is even worse.

3 years, 10 months ago

I'm not really sure about this tax confuses me a bit, I do know what we have now ain't working and we need a simpler, smaller tax plan.

I'll say it again.

at least I've given a plan, I'm not living an an illusion that what we have now is the best as Hillary Clinton says. exept she will raise taxes on the rich to punish them for being rich. besides that she thinks what we have now us gold.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

You don't understand it, but you are sure you know how to fix it. You can't answer basic questions, but your opinion is valid on a national level. You do see why I have trouble connecting those two, right?

So let's stick to the fairly simple scenario of a home based entrepreneur buying a car. Now they pay 10% of their income, and another 10% on the cost of the car they need to be able to deliver their products. That is $20,000 that is being taxed twice, so they are out an extra $2000. If they are trying to start a business, that could be the difference between success and failure. If they cannot claim expenses, they are being taxed on money they don't actually have since they aren't making 100% of their income as profit. Some, or in some cases all, of it is used to keep the business going.

Without being able to claim business expenses, small businesses across the nation will fail, unemployment will rise, and there will be fewer people paying taxes since many will lose their jobs. Your plan will singlehandedly kill small business and entrepreneurship in America. How would that benefit the economy?

3 years, 10 months ago

I'm not really sure about this tax confuses me a bit, I do know what we have now ain't working and we need a simpler, smaller tax plan.

3 years, 10 months ago

how about people pay 10% of their income as taxes. and 10% pay tax on a car when you buy the car?

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

If you don't know enough to be able to make one, how can you possibly claim that yours is a good outline for one?

I am not disagreeing that a flat tax at 10% wouldn't be doable, but your expectation of being able to make it a few pages long is ridiculous. There are thousands of situations that would need to be spelled out at least. How are home businesses taxed (pure income, income - expenses)? If expenses are removed, what constitutes a valid expense (I need a car, so that 20k less taxable income). If expenses are not allowed, your new plan has killed American entrepreneurship. And these are just the basics. I am not am expert, so I can't go into the in depth details, but these are the things that I know from doing my own taxes. Your idea that a legal code that impacts every household and business in the nation cam be summed up in 5 pages is simply unworkable.

3 years, 10 months ago

*good, not food.

3 years, 10 months ago

I'm saying I can't write a tax code, however I can provide a food outline/ plan for one, which I've said already.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

So you don't know enough to answer the question, but you are sure that your solution will be able to. Are you aware that this is illogical?

3 years, 10 months ago

the regular Muslim should not get punished for the acts of a few radicals. I can see why you would want to do so, buy trump should ban all or nothing. I'm pretty sure banning Muslims is unconstitutional.

3 years, 10 months ago

In Oslo, Norway, that is.

3 years, 10 months ago

He's talking about the Muslim immigrant. I don't blame him. 100% of rapes in Norway were committed by Muslim immigrants.

3 years, 10 months ago

I can't answer any complex tax issues, I will say that taxing 10% will reduce loopholes, shorten the tax code, and greatly reduce confusion.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Are you going to actually address my questions, or ignore them?

3 years, 10 months ago

He called for a "complete and total ban of all muslems" I think he will ban everyone, not just muslems, but he really should not have said that.

3 years, 10 months ago

Trump never said he would ban Muslims... lol

3 years, 10 months ago

you take the money, tax 10% of it and move on with your life.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

You are assuming you can cover every conceivable scenario in a few pages without actually having enough understanding or knowledge on the subject to do it. Your opinion that it is possible is meaningless since you have nothing backing it.

If you tax income by 10%, then it gets invested, how do you tax it when it is withdrawn from the investment? Do you just take 10% of the interest? What if it loses money for a year then makes money after that? Do you tax income over the initial amount, or over the capital that remained after the loss?

This is why tax codes, like legal codes, are very long and detailed. You can't just say what you mean and expect everyone to interpret it that way. You have to spell it out in detail for every possible permutation to make sure no one misinterprets it or takes advantage of vague language.

3 years, 10 months ago

Dave, my tax plan was a bit of a joke, but it seems your issues could all be covered on 1-2 pages. I guess I'll have to explain what gets tax and what doesn't, but that's it. how much is 10%.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

So where is that written into your "tax code" that churches are exempt? What qualifies as a church? If I claim to worship money, does that mean my income becomes tax exempt?

As historybuff asked, what about charitable donations? If you remove the tax credit people receive, charities will founder since many who give would not be able to afford to if they did not receive those tax credits for the donation.


What about capital gains (interest on investment)? Is that income?

3 years, 10 months ago

There are two reasons I won't vote for trump
1.he missed the debate- lack of leadership
2. he wants to ban all muslems- if he said ban all imigrants that would be a better plan.

3 years, 10 months ago

Trump has his issues, but I understand where your coming from. after 7 years of Obama you are mad at the goverment, and so am I. we need someone strong to lead us. and Trump is defiantly better then sanders.

3 years, 10 months ago

I honestly think trump is going to win, and I'm glad to hear it. Sanders says he wants people to get education for free, use the hardworking tax payers money to make everything "free." Trump would send back the illegals, and there's nothing wrong with that. He would also shut off our borders so that refugees couldn't destroy the country.

3 years, 10 months ago

if not, then they don't fall under the "taxed items" part of my plan.

now of course a teal tax code would be at least a couple pages. a good tax code can be 2-5 pages.

3 years, 10 months ago

are churches taxed now?

3 years, 10 months ago

that is just stupid on the face of it. what about religious exemptions? are you going to tax all Churches? what about exemptions for charitable donations? how do you calculate the tax when it crosses state, or national boundaries? any tax code that short is doomed to fail because it cant deal with complex situations. and life is complex.

3 years, 10 months ago

my tax code

America's tax code
there will be a flat tax of 10% on all taxed items. everyone will pay 10% on these items, no exeptions.

anyone who does not pay the tax will be charged and arrested.

that is all.

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Sum up any legal system in 5 pages. If you put it in plain language, it is too vague and therefore full of loopholes. You are asking for something which, if it were possible, would have been proposed by experts for years. The reason the tax code gets so big is because every time someone finds a loophole and gets caught, they add to it to close that loophole, assuming they aren't the very wealthy or corporations who help shape the rules to protect their loopholes.

3 years, 10 months ago

and a 5 page tax code will not take an expert to deal with, and will be easy to follow.

3 years, 10 months ago

you're right. you're not a tax expert. but billionaires have the very best tax experts. and they are very good at getting out of paying taxes.

3 years, 10 months ago

I'm not a tax expert, but I think a fair clean cut even tax on everything with a tax code of 5 pages will work.
that way everyone pays the same.

3 years, 10 months ago

you think a few people on welfare drain the system? how about the trillions in dollars that go untaxed because people like trump make loop holes to avoid paying? how about CEOs that sent profits to tax havens so that corporations making billions pay pennies. those are the parasites that require dealing with.

3 years, 10 months ago

love*

3 years, 10 months ago

People who feed of hard work of others are voting for sanders! he's a socialists. people who feed of of hard work of lovers live socialists!

3 years, 10 months ago

Sanders would make people question those who feed off hard work of others. those who hide behind the good capitalism has done, while they suck the life out the system and the people. he has never said we should hate them.

3 years, 10 months ago

sanders will make people hate successfull people... so that's not any better.

anyway I was ok on trump, I was never in favor of him until now. after missing that debate he really did bad. I want a leader who 1. isn't afraid of tough questions 2. won't coast on a lead, and will keep fighting.
trump doesn't have those. terrible idea by him. I still would cast my vote on trump over any democrat easily.

3 years, 10 months ago

if trump got his way America would hate immigrants, refugees, Muslims, gay people just to name a few.

3 years, 10 months ago

America would hate Trump?

3 years, 10 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

From how he is campaigning, Trump.

3 years, 10 months ago

Now who would America be hating?

3 years, 10 months ago

trump 2016. make America hate again.

3 years, 10 months ago
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