The debate "Trump for Blue Obama for Rednn Tell me why" was started by
May 23, 2019, 8:32 pm.
27 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 42 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
Nemiroff posted 3 arguments, historybuff posted 10 arguments, TheExistentialist posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
Nemiroff, dinosaurrawr and 25 visitors agree.
historybuff, imjustheretommorow, Damian, sssk, Aditya_17, YEET, TheExistentialist, Shrivali_16 and 34 visitors disagree.
these are interesting topics, it kinda argues both sides the way i see. thank you
The other concern about Trump's economy is of course the deficit. He lowered taxes for the wealthy without offsetting that lack of income. The deficit numbers are actually even higher than first predicted. This, coupled with predictors for a recession, his pressure on the Fed to lower interest rates, and his trade war with china are not good for the future our economy.
The inverse Bonds market curve is a predictor for recessions. The inversion of this curve has predicted 100% of recessions over the last 50 years. The curve has inverted again and thus we can be relatively certain a recession is coming. Since Trump lowered taxes and artificially pushed interest rates lower, we lack the common mechanisms of lowering taxes and interest rates in order to get out of a recession. Many economists are now predicting that the next recession will likely be a depression because of Trump.
His trade war is another factor that will likely lead to a depression
In the 1930s, it was the punitive US Smoot-Hawley tariff that helped spark the devastating cocktail of nationalism and economic collapse. While Trump claims that the tariffs are in the interest of decreasing trade deficits, that won’t necessarily mean the end of trade deficits; it could just mean less trade everywhere, a situation that should bring to mind the global depression of the 1930s again as the rhetoric and policies were very similar.
There is a lot to unpack here:
The fact of the matter is that the US is really bad in terms of healthcare compared to other 1st world countries. We spend more, we get less, and we do worse.
58.5 percent of bankruptcies were caused specifically by medical bills, while 44.3 percent were caused in part by income loss due to illness.
The U.S. has poorer rates of Amenable Mortality, as measured by the Healthcare Access and Quality Index
Disease burden is higher in the U.S. than in comparable countries
Hospital admissions for preventable diseases are more frequent in the U.S. than in comparable countries (likely due to lack of access for primary care)
Use of the emergency department in place of regular doctor visits is more common in the U.S. than in most comparable countries.
Single payer and hybrid systems simply do a better job of caring for people (Better outcomes), saving money (less per capita and less of GDP), improve access (less people visit the ED than their doctor), and encourage frequent visits so preventative medicine can be at the forefront (less medical bankruptcies.)
here is Bernie's border agenda: https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-immigration/
Even though Border Security is Trump's #1 issue, it is not the most important issue in the country for many voters. Healthcare, student loan debts, climate change, etc... are all valid topics and valid voter issues. Just because it's not addressed in every speech by Bernie or another candidate doesn't mean its not part of their agenda, it simply means they're also addressing other topics that other voters find more important.
"the Economy is doing so much better in the past 50 years?"
That depends heavily on how you measure it. In terms of the stock market that's true and in terms of unemployment its true. However, Cumulative nominal average hourly earnings gap is steadily growing, Share of corporate-sector income received by workers is decreasing, income inequality is the highest in US history, Purchasing power for us workers is declining, median household income (adjusted for inflation) is declining, average standard of living is declining, cost of work benefits (insurance, etc...) is increasing. So the economy actually isn't all that good for the average person
sorry for some hickups, most of the things in their should not even bee there of what I said.
who are the "Nobility" that you speak of? What do slaves have to do with this?
Incremental change has been happening ever since The U.S became an independent country. Its always been happening. Incremental change has been happening before even the U.S was a country. That is how China is working. Some Incremental changes. Insurance or Medical industries don't have to change. We can not force them to change. They make billions of dollars making people die you say. That doesn't make sense. "Ow, you killed a patient here's a million bucks!" That may not be what you are saying, but come on now dude. Incremental change is what we need! Its always progressed that way. And for better or worse, at the end of the day. In every situation. In ANY! Place. The system improved because of it.
Ok, the rich pay for the federal Taxes, They can't do anything meaningful because most of them invest their money creating their own shows. That is not a bad thing though they want some publicity. Things are not getting worse and worse, we will have setbacks, but ever since Obama went out of office, Most of the U.S started getting better! Not worse! Better, And if Bernie Sanders is such a great guy! If he wants the best for the U.S! Why doesn't he talk about border security? maybe he does it. If he really wanted the best for the U.S! Remember the bottom bombing IDK but he wants to give these guys back their human rights even know doing the most Inhumane thing.
And if things are as bad as they are? How come, the Economy is doing so much better in the past 50 years? The Black unemployment rate! Lowest it has ever been in the U.S as far as we all know. Female Employment rate! Also High! What's so bad? What's worse! this what I do not understand, I want to know what is worse in the U.S that is a problem?
That's exactly the argument that the nobility would have made in an absolute monarchy. It took centuries for them to stop treating their people like slaves. And they only stopped when the people forced them to stop.
Incremental change will not work. The insurance and medical industries do not want to change. They make billions and billions of dollars by letting sick people die. If they had to actually treat sick people then they would only made hundreds of millions in profit instead, so they would rather the poor just die to protect their bloated profit margins. They will fight to the very end to stop any progress being made. The insurance industry in particular, is a parasite that adds absolutely no value to society. It only drains people of money to deny care whenever possible.
Most politicians take money from those same companies and therefore won't let any meaningful change happen. Things will continue to get worse and worse until radical change is needed. Which is exactly why Bernie Sanders needs to win. He is the only politician in the running they can't buy. He can reform the system to actually work for american citizens, rather than for a tiny number of company executives.
No system is just going to be magically better though. Changing won't really help it either. reality is Republicans did not want Obama care or health care. The answer isn't looking for a better system. Our system is not perfect, but I wouldn't change it just because someone else does it. Not always do these systems work.
So pushing for something better isn't the answer, but looking to better the system when it benefits both parties is what needs to happen. Not Changing it.
You are right that obama care was not a good system. But the reasons it sucks are because of the republicans and because Obama wasn't strong enough to push for a better system. Obama compromised right off the bat to try to get republicans to agree but they had no intention of doing any kind of reform, even if it was a right wing reform (Obama care was originally thought up by a right wing think tank).
But it was a good 1st step. Now that more people are starting to realize that government helping people is not going to cause "death pannels" or whatever other nonsense republicans came up with. We now need the next big step forward with Bernie Sanders' healthcare for all.
well, I already understand this. How it's bad is Obama care, which is what I was really talking about was bad. This isn't too say it never helped anybody. Its bad cause people are wanting health care and haven't even found a way to make it work. They just say Health care is good.
Not to say its a bad thing I just don't completely agree with it. I don't mind giving a helping hand and giving money to people that need it. I have a problem with it if it's just gonna take more money away just for the sake of someone we don't even know.
specifically, I don't want Obama care. I got two and two mixed up which is my bad. I am not saying Health care is bad completely. I am really talking about Obama care. So sorry for my misconceptions.
I am Hellow the guy that was here before with a different name. sorry for the late response too lol.
How could giving people health care be bad? I really cannot think of a single way it could be.
Morally: helping people is good. not too hard.
Financially:Canada pays way less per person for healthcare than america does. And yet, everyone in the country is covered. Insurance companies playing middle man just adds more costs. You are adding in more companies that want a cut and generate profits. The only way they can do that is if they are charging people more than they are paying out. So if they didn't exist, then everyone would save money.
Additionally, when basic health issues are treated immediately it is alot cheaper than if it is left untreated and gets worse. Poor people can't afford to get a minor issue looked. Therefore they don't treat it and hope it gets better on it's own. Then it gets worse and costs thousands and thousands to fix because they didn't get a simple fix much earlier. So as a whole, money is saved (and people's lives are improved) if they don't have to worry about the financial impact of getting treatment for a minor issue.
Economically: I don;'t have hard stats on this, but sick people can't work as effectively as healthy people. So if they can get treatment and recover quickly then their economic output is increased. If they can't afford healthcare and spend longer being sick/injured then their economic output is lowered by more and for longer.
Can you provide an example of how a single payer system is bad in any way? Other than removing a parasitic industry (health insurance) which really doesn't need to exist, I don't see any down sides at all. And if you allow a 2nd tier system to also exist, it would further eliminate any downsides. IE have healthcare for everyone, but allow private hospitals to continue to exist. So if the uber rich still want to jump any potential waiting lines they can still do that by paying lots of money. But they are still required to pay into the system for everyone. It is the best of both worlds.
Obama care only actually helps poor families. Not poor in general. It was designed to help people with the worst symptoms. yet, you only are aloud to have Obama care if you have a family. doesn't really matter how poor you are. I don't think Health care Should be free to everyone. If someone needs a treatment that is life threatening, I don't mind giving some of money who needs it. Some people may use Obama care for a different reason.
Obama care has actually hurt other people while trying to help another. People were paying more Insurance because of Health care. And by that. I was in debt, that harmed me and my family. I don't think Health care is bad, I think giving it to people is bad. Now their is no reason to really work if you get more benefits. The poor I heard some actually are doing well while poor. So Giving people health care isn't the answer. A compromise like maybe don't sign up for it.
I think obama care was a bandaid solution that tried to deal with the worst of the symptoms of the issue, without addressing the underlying issue in any way. The US needs a single payer system like most of the modern world has. Healthcare should be a right that everyone has access to. No one should die from something simple because they can't afford the medical procedure.
Obama care was a 1st step. Alot of people have now seen that a government interfering in the free market can actually benefit people alot. Now they need to continue on to the next step, not go back and try to fix obama care.
While we are at it, clearly people don't like Trump when it comes to moral yes? If you were in his shoes, what would you do? I for one, would try to help out with Obama care, that has effected people in a good way, and in a bad way.
Listen dudes, we are usually at each other's throats. LOL. Right now in this thread we arnt. I am actually just trying to understand both sides. I am not here to criticize. Maybe others, Also, I asked a question dudes, I know you have seen it. I actually would like too know! (This goes to everyone here)
sure. as an added bit of "fun" trump now wants to add tariffs to mexico as well. Do you have any idea how many american jobs are going to be lost if he goes through with his threat? Practically every car that is manufactured in North America has parts made in mexico. Or the car is assembled in mexico, but the parts are made in the US. The supply chains are completely intertwined. This would catastrophic for alot of industries, but the auto sector is going to get hit hard.
I am going to look into the Tarrifs thing. OK?
Trump is trying to use tariffs as a weapon against China to get them to do what he wants. The idea is that if you put tariffs on Chinese goods, they get more expensive (because the US government is taxing americans buying the goods). This will motivate american companies and consumers to buy products from other countries and hurt the Chinese economy. He was hoping to leverage that and get them to sign a new trade deal that he could point to as a victory.
The problem is that tariffs cut both ways. It will also hurt american companies and consumers. For example, let's say I make pop (soda) in the US. I get a bunch of the things I need to make it from china. Because of the tariffs those ingredients are now more expensive. I need to raise the price of my product to compensate for the extra costs. Well now my product is more expensive than other pop at the store so people buy that instead. My sales tank and my business goes bankrupt. You now have an american product manufactured in america going out of business because of tariffs on china. That is a really simplified example.
Another very real world example is for farmers. China buys alot of soy beans from the US. As retaliation for the US tariffs on them, China put tariffs on US products. Chinese companies then started buying soy beans from other countries because they were now cheaper to buy and US farmers aren't able to sell their product. These people are now losing money, if not their farms, because they got caught in the middle of a fight trump started.
The worst part is that tump half assed the whole thing. if the US had gotten all the countries annoyed with Chinese abusive practices together and everyone put tariffs on china, then this might have worked. China needs to export to fuel it's economy. But trump picked a fight with everyone. He attacked NAFTA, annoying Mexico and Canada. He is threatening Europe. Basically trump declared trade wars with everyone, at the same time. Thus making America seen as the problem, not China.
not trying to insult you, just the hole Tarrifs thing
wait, that all doesn't make sense, why raise Tarrifs just for Chinese goods could cost more?
Tariffs make it more expensive to buy most goods. That means the buying power of Americans will go way down. You are now going to have to pay more for anything made in China, or that has parts made in China.
That means that American companies that rely on things from China are either going to have to take the hit and pay the tariffs themselves, or pass that cost onto their customers which will hurt their sales.
This will be bad for every consumer and a lot of American companies. There are a lot of companies that are already being hit hard. Famers, clothing companies, electronics companies, consumer electronics etc.
All I can say is, what's the worst thing that can happen with tarrifs then? Can you explain that why you think this could be bad.
yeah, tarrifs are a tax, on our importers. not China, not even Chinese companies.
and you know what, some sort of trade action is good against China. and it would be nice if Europe and the rest of the world joined in to make China stop it's bad practices. but no. Mr genius put tarrifs on all of them too.... at the same time.
it would totally work if China couldnt trade with anyone effectively, but right now trump is making us the lone dog out. no part of this is a good idea.
I see a lot of people prefer Obama. which isn't a surprise. You think Obama had better morals or a better run as president. Maybe both?
Well, even people act a little childish at work. Including Doctors. They will goof off here and their.
If he does act like a child constantly, then I don't think he would be president. The guy knows when to be serious.
Trump raised Tarrifs on China. That's what he did. And so far, nothing bad is happening..."YET" that is a bad thing if U.S isn't receiving money(Tarrifs I believe are like taxes). And the thing about his ignorance is actually scary to think about. I don't think hes ignorant, I don't want to think that at all. That's just plain scary.
its one thing for a doctor to act childish at home with friends and family. its another for him to be childish at work with the sick and dying.
also 2 differences:
at times vs constantly
childish vs incompetent
he doesnt understand simple concepts, like who pays tariffs. his ignorance is only overshadowed by his confidence and that is a very bad combination.
would you Agree that you can be a bit childish at times, I can. Your right, not natural to act like that when your a president. That just shows hes human.
There is just something extra incompetent about it though. I mean he just got up without saying a word and went to watch TV. after a few minutes the VP got up and went to find him. Watched TV with him for a few minutes, then coaxed him back to the meeting.
He just acts like a 5 year old half the time.
your first paragraph isn't really wrong. You just said how politics work basically. So I won't argue there, I like the fact that you bring that up as well.
In my understanding of Trump. He isn't perfect as a person. Definitely not. I disagreed with you on saying he's a dictator. That he doesn't act like it. I bring up China saying I'm not entirely sure on it. I also said he isn't trying to be liked by everyone because he doesn't sugar code things. I mean I'm not a Trump fan, but I can't stand someone being dehumanized.
As for your last paragraph. He does those things on purpose just to get attention. That's all he wants. As for locking children in cages, Well that's just making the guy look like a monster. He is a business man. I think he does know how it works, but you may be right on him using it improperly. And the last sentence made me laugh. LOL. to be fare, I would have done the same thing.
Things like the ACA. Obama spent a long time trying to get the Republicans to agree to a way to move forward on healthcare reform. But they didn't want to give him any sort of success so they sabotaged it and undermined it in every way they could. By the time he realized they were never going to help him do anything positive he had lost the house and then it was too late to pass much of any real substance. Now the republicans could block anything and everything he tried to do.
Sorry, I am having some difficulty understanding everything in your paragraph about trump. But yes, I think he wants to be loved. He thinks everyone should should say nice things about him. That's why he can't ever let it go when someone calls him out for something. From the parents of a war hero, to the mayor of london, to members of his own party, his skin is so thin he feels the need to attack everyone.
And yeah i think trump is incompetent. He as surrounded himself with people with extremist views and some of them are able to get things done (like locking children in cages). But he mostly watches TV, insults people on twitter and tells people how great he is. Some of things he has said and done make it really, really obvious. Things like not knowing how tariffs work while calling himself "tariff man". One time he was having a meeting with the VP and the speaker of the house about repealing obama care and he just got bored and wandered off to watch fox news. The VP had to go and bring him back so they could finish the meeting.
well I think your right on that. LOL
I will correct some things, when I said tax cut explode, I meant economy.
Well for Obama, I will look into bipartisan for you. If the Republicans just wanted Obama to fail. Although He wasn't an effective president. Then yes, I think it's fare to want him out of of office. I doubt that's all they wanted though.
What did he not implement? what was his plan? He was elected twice, He actually did some good things, like stoping bush torcherd policy. Of course that allowed torcherd for the Military, but it was easy for Obama sense he was head of it.
Your very wrong on the Trump part. Is he really flaring around to get people to like him? From what I see, he says stupid things on purpose. You think those are accidents? He likes to go overboard, that's why people talk about him. If really was trying to be liked by everyone. Then he would do his best to suger code his words. I would beg to differ on the fact that he doesn't know what he is doing. You think he's just there for fun? Remember the time someone signed the tax cuts witch mad the tax cuts explode? I think that has something to do with Trump. Did you know that he also wants to end sex trafficking? he signed for bills on it. Your sadly mistaken on the dictator ship. If he really thought that a president was a dictator, then he would use the Military to shut up the protesters, shut up CNN, and Shut up Congress. That is what a dictator would do. He's not lashing out on anyone, he just calls them out, when they respond, all they do is make fun of him, or they just call him. "A racist, Bigoted white supremest." real talk here, when he does call someone out, or when he talking about someone, he usually is being civil about that. If that wasn't the case before, he certainly doing better now. As for rasing tariffs on China, I honestly don't know if it's good or bad, but hears the thing. Don't assume what's going on, rasing tarrifs I don't know wether it's good or bad. I don't know if China still buys stuff from the U.S. I assume they still will buy because the U.S still has products the China probably needs. Congress has just as amount of power as president Trump does. Now Congress is supposed to keep the president in check, yet al they seem to do is hate the guy for whatever reason. They arnt doing there jobs right. That's why Trump wants to oversee them.
Trump knows exactly what he is doing. This man is actually doing everything he can to for fill his promises. He trying to get the wall, he signed for bills in order to end sex trafficking.
I don't believe that Obama was an effective president. He spent so long trying to build bipartisan support when that was completely impossible. The republicans had no intention of doing any good for the country. They only wanted him to fail so that they could win the next election.
Obama failed to read the political landscape until it was too late. At that point he was unable to implement the things he wanted to do. ultimately, he was a failure.
Trump is just in a whole different league though. He doesn't have any idea what he is doing. He is flailing around pretty much randomly trying to get people to like him. He doesn't know pretty much anything about how government actually works. He seems to believe that the president is some sort of dictator that everyone should swear loyalty to. He feels the need to lash out and anyone who isn't ridiculously flattering to him. He thinks that congress has no authority to provide oversight of the executive branch. (his lawyers actually tried to argue this) He seems to think that tariffs are paid by China when anyone with even a basic understanding of economics knows that it is a tax being paid by american companies. That tax is usually then passed onto the american consumer.
Obama had good ideas that he failed to implement. Trump has no ideas that actually make sense. He has no idea how government works. And his nepotism, corruption and chaotic "leadership" style are paralyzing the government. There is no question which is the worse president.
trump is embarassing
Guys keep in mind, I am neutral, feel free to argue with me.