The debate "Trump is already showing Mark's of a great President" was started by
November 29, 2016, 9:26 pm.
19 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 32 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
Yanksxx21 posted 9 arguments, neveralone posted 10 arguments, dalton7532 posted 1 argument, Blue_ray posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 6 arguments, TheExistentialist posted 5 arguments, PoliticsAsUsual posted 4 arguments, neveralone posted 4 arguments, JunioRodgers posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.
Yanksxx21, Matthew_Daniel, jack_tim_45, dalton7532, allyssa, tanya, redeemed, LeftoverEye70, Ematio and 10 visitors agree.
marc, TheExistentialist, Parallax, PoliticsAsUsual, QueenSleepy, JunioRodgers, thereal, harshita, Rajat, WolfiesMom and 22 visitors disagree.
he's just became pres.
so what's your opinion now? it's been quite enough for people to form a personal view on his politics including you
how does lowering taxes raises them? last I checked the tax system isn't a pulley.
Giving these tax breaks and lower regulations will raise our taxes or cut social programs. This money will go to corporate welfare, while we have many living in poverty.
Watering down his ideas isn't a mark of a great president. In his case some of his ideas would have wrecked the economy, backing down is the mark of a rational person. I don't know if he will be a great president, but I haven't seen any marks of it yet, largely because he is not president yet. I suggest we pit this debate on hold until he takes office since then we will have a better metric for how successful he will be as a leader.
no it's not. but again it's probably the best he can do for now. though I would of preferred him to wait but for some reason he didn't. he should of waited and did what he says he will do.
though back to the original debate. he has watered down his ideas so that shows he has a good learning curve or he listened to the people around him. either way this shows potential. we will have to wait and see how good he really will be. though I hope he does amazing. so that America can get better. because better is always better. haha
is it a 7 million dollar worth bandaid?
I think you are far too eager to just accept it and not do any math or critical thought.
is this faith or laziness?
hey if it's a 7 mil. dollar worth bandaid and they couldn't do any better because they arnt Hugh enough then yes. though it's not perfect it is something. I'm more interested in what he will do when he us pres. than this.
if the company is shown to be un American then people stop purchasing their products and their profits nose dive.
it is a bandaid. a 7 million dollar band aid. if you walked into an emergency room bleeding to death and they just slapped a bandaid on you, charged you 7 million dollars and then bragged about what a good job they did, would you think they did a good job?
what would shaming have done? make the Corporations mad and want to leave. this is a bandaid sure but that's probably the best he can do for now
"didn't FDR do this to?"
No, bailing failing companies isn't a bribe. Carrier wasn't failing they were profitable, but wanted to be more profitable, essentially the government is now subsidizing corporate profits.
"what else could he have done right now to keep the company here?"
He should have made it clear that he will champion legislation which will make it less profitable to leave, he should have publicly shamed the company and made an example of them them. However, spending $7 million per year to keep a measly 1k jobs which may leave the country at some point anyway (note that there is no provision in the deal that would guarantee the jobs staying) and setting a precedence for other companies to receive "special" tax cuts simply isn't a good option.
I can't imagine after TARP that anyone on the right would have celebrated this same deal if Obama ha done this. I'd say you should evaluate the deal in the same light as you evaluated TARP and then look at the results of TARP and look at the best and worstcase scenario for this deal. If you're truly honest in your assessment, you'll have to agree that the Carrier deal is simply aweful.
what else could he have done? (note the reference to your post so people know what I'm talking about in my reply :)
well he was threatening to impose tarrifs, but that could have lead to a trade war... imposing tarrifs on a nation because of actions of a US company may be wrong but would it cause a trade war if we just ban the products from the US? it is an American company and the move wouldn't mention any foreign nation thus avoiding a trade war.... and it's not like they can actually sell their products en mass in Mexico and other developing nations.
the only threat is they will just sell to Europe and we would end up losing, however Europe is also losing jobs to the developing nations and could easily follow our lead on this which would pretty much strangle any company trying to move with no trade war risks.
"bribe money" ? didn't FDR do this to? even though in FDR case they were tanking these companies are leaving. and once again what else could he have done right now to keep the company here?
and now that he has given away millions of dollars in bribe money, every other company is going to want theirs. he saw an opportunity to convince his fanatical followers what a good job he is doing. but really this is just a douche bag millionaire bribing other douche bag millionaires for political gain. drain the swamp? he's just adding to it.
they made plans to leave circa feb of 2016.
sorry idk where I got the idea but I thought u asked for an example looking over I see u didn't.
what else could he do right now? curious more than anything else. also was this company threatening to leave before he became president. he might of saw this as an opportunity.
no but it's better than nothing
idk on the draining the swamps thing
There are two huge issues with this statement:
1) We're not in a depression
2) the company doesn't need to be bailed out. United technologies (Carrier is a subsidiary of United) posted $16.09 billion in profit last year. This was down from $17.1 billion last year. This drop in profit likely sparked the decision to move carrier along with other plants to mexico. So, in essence we're paying them to increase their profit margins, not to stay in business.
@yanksxx21....do you actually know the details of the carrier deal????
He just spent $7 million of tax payer money to keep 800-1000 jobs in the US....so it costs us over $7,000 per job per year.
If we compare this to the auto bailout, we see that the US lost a total of $9.6 billion (79.7 billion spent, $70.1 billion repaid), in exchange he saved an estimated 2 million jobs in the automotive industry. That means he spent about $4,800 per job. Let's look a little bit deeper though. It's estimated that he may have saved as many as 4.15 million jobs if the entire US auto industry would have sank. He also saved $39.4 billion in yearly tax revenue if GM would have gone under, that number sky rockets to $109 billion if the entire us auto industry would have gone under. Essentially we lost $9.6 billion but saved $29.8 billion per year in tax revenue (and likely more, but we'll stay with the conservative estimate). If we dive even deeper we see that when you look at the entire TARP bailout, of which the auto bailout was a relatively small part. In total, Treasury spent $421.8 billion to rescue financial institutions and the auto industry, and it has recovered $432.7 billion so far — a tidy $10.9 billion profit — including the GM losses.
By the way, carrier is also receiving a million from Indiana on top of the $7 million promised by Trump. Since these are tax incentives it means that we will not be recovering this money from the plant or the employees. So it's a total loss.
Obama thus far made us 10.9 billion in profit and literally saved millions of jobs.
Bernie Sanders already stated: "he has signaled to every corporation in America that they can threaten to offshore jobs in exchange for business-friendly tax benefits and incentives"
@yanksxx21 I challenge you to defend this deal given the numbers.....especially considering things like the auto bailout and the precedence this deal makes.
perhaps your right about that's all he can do without being pres.... but I wouldn't call it something to be proud of either. it sets a bad precedent.
however his claim to drain the swamp seems like bullshit as well.
forget the media. we know he gave tax breaks to a single company in essence picking winners and losers in our economy, and we know he payed them to stay instead of making them pay for leaving.
these are well-known facts, not that I expect you to understand what a fact is.
well he's not full pres. yet so what else can he have done? they don't get it
when we were in the great depression the gov. had to bail out companies all the time. so this might be good but we'll see
correction they released some details. he saved less than half of the proposed job cuts and paid them 7 million dollars. 1300 jobs are still moving to Mexico.
now what happens when every other manufacturer wants a similar deal?
Besides the left and the media have been wrong about him all year, not going to start listening now
He saved more than half my friend
despite literally paying them to stay, half of the jobs are still leaving.
and if the right is in such favor of a free market, the taxes and regulations of the left apply to all companies equally, trump "the great negotiator" just did the same old subsidy a** kissing as many Republican governors have been doing for a long time, giving 1 company an unfair advantage over others.
he paid them and couldn't even keep all the jobs while setting a precedent and picking market winners and losers... this just seems like an all around horrible decision. do we even know if the staying jobs get to keep their full salary and benefits?
he has already proven he would rather bribe companies than tax them. paying people to not do something doesn't work. it only encourages them to do it again. every company in America now knows that they can get special deals by appealing directly to trump. why do you not see how terrible that it?
He saved workers, he's too smart to be taken advantage of, and if they do leave just tax them
you disagree that he promised he would make them stay by taxing them for leaving? or that he is giving them millions of dollars in tax breaks, essentially paying this company not move some jobs from public funds. I don't see how anyone intelligent could disagree with that.
or do you disagree that this creates a precedent that the president will give you a special deal if you threaten to leave? because that is exactly what he did. why would other companies not want their own special deals after trump gave one to carrier?
I disagree with that entirely yet it's your opinion so he it
on top of that, this is still a broken promise. he said he would stop companies from leaving by making them pay a tax. instead he offered them a bribe to keep half the jobs. he didn't do what he said he would.
I can see how someone would look at this and think it is a good thing, assuming you didn't think about it very much. but trump has just bribed a company to keep half the jobs from a factory. what he has done is tell every company in America that the government will bribe you if you threaten to move to Mexico.
he has opened the door to the kind of meddling in business that Republicans are always attacking "liberals" for. Either this is a one off thing that can't be repeated, and therefore doesn't really matter. or it is the start if an extremely disturbing trend of companies calling up the President to get a better deal. unfortunately it's probably the latter.
yeah you are right. the fact is, Trump has become president so we dont have any interesting threads about the elections anymore. However i think we can still think of some great and interesting debates.
Trump is showing marks of a different kind of president, and if he executes 80% his policies he can certainly be called great. What he is doing with Carrier was great, and when he has full powers he can do a lot more. I am glad he kept his promise. I do not know how this subject is debatable. He has already stopped jobs from leaving the US, executed "anti-corruption" rules for his cabinet, and is so far keeping his policies consistent. I think that is especially relevant after his thank you tour.
Somebody needs to make more interesting threads. These are so boring
is that bad?
Yeah methinks he could be a corporatist
ok 800 out of 1400 is still better than 0 but I'm wondering what he has done to keep them here. also look below if u want to continue main debate
ummmm...some jobs are staying in the US.
hes trying to unite America by watering down his ideas at least
a deal gets made that you know nothing about and you think that makes trump a great man. I'm not sure you know what logic is.
Lol that was such a hypocritical statment, I find joy from you now as you a meat joke in your argument abilities and logic
you are the one jumping to a conclusion not me. you are assuming that a deal you know virtually nothing about is a sign of greatness. that is a huge assumption.
and trump has finally agreed, under mounting pressure, to do what every President has been expected to do for the last 50 years. oh what a visionary....
Trump giving over his business to focus on us, no argument he's in it for money now
and i grabbed the article as it just states that carrier is staying in the USA
All assumptions without evidence as usual, take a look at it as a blessi g that he is already fulfilling his promise of keeping our jobs in America
they pay the workers in the US upwards of $70,000 per year. the Mexican workers were going to make $3 per hour. trump must have offered them alot of money to make up for the millions, possibly billions the move would have saved them. keeping jobs in America by making the government pay for them would not be a good thing.
that article doesn't say what the deal is. how can you say this deal is a mark of greatness when you don't know what it is?
maybe he offered them huge tax breaks that other companies can't get access to. maybe he gave the CEO a huge bribe. maybe he threatened to murder all their families. you can't say a deal is a mark of greatness when you have no idea what it is.
I swear Elaine Chao made me angry. Ill cry if he takes Romney