The debate "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer." was started by
February 26, 2015, 2:56 pm.
40 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 19 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
PsychDave posted 16 arguments, project_mayhem posted 1 argument, NaggingNut posted 1 argument, RyanWakefield posted 1 argument, PoliticsAsUsual posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
Alex posted 18 arguments, ReadyToBegin posted 1 argument, shenanigans posted 1 argument, fadi posted 17 arguments, historybuff posted 5 arguments to the disagreers part.
project_mayhem, I_Voyager, Martin2489, Seraph, leoi137, Haelaeif, frozen_emily, sdiop, PsychDave, PoliticsAsUsual, sickboyblonde, NaggingNut, truth_vs_true, Talya_Sofija, RyanWakefield, jijierafee, rob5998, Burnin, Sally, R_o_h_i_t, SarahQueen, lawyerlady and 18 visitors agree.
rickrollross, llthslvtr, Alex, ReadyToBegin, Voidiq, healthywhealthy, WiseGirl, xaveragexjoesx, shenanigans, fadi, historybuff, NerdTagz, SwaggerPoptart and 6 visitors disagree.
That is your belief, and I disagree. neither one of us will be able to prove or disprove it so let's leave it at that, ok? :-)
no these people went to a better place god decides who to cure he has a purpose in doing so
he let many die. many many of whom were praying just as much as those he saved, and many many were good righteous people, many were even young children.
how can you point to a tiny # of freak exceptions and conclude a very specific reason for it?
christ does cure nowadays he cured people who had reached the last stages of cancer that wasn't by medicine
with medicine, by doctors. just because you say his name doesn't mean he had anything to do with it.
do you think it is impossible for a mountain to move then how are people still being cured in his name ?
An example of a lie.
God has never given anyone anything they haven't worked for themselves. People pray for better health, then die of cancer. People pray for money, then starve to death. People pray for a good family, then get divorced. There has never been any proof of God giving anyone anything. Saying otherwise without proof can be ignored without proof. If prayer works as advertised, do as Jesus said. Go out and command a mountain to move itself in His name.
no it was a figure of speech
you won't ask for a million dollars but god blesses you and what ever you need will be granted but prayer is way to talk to god you talk to god just like you talk to your father a million dollars is nothing compared to what god has prepared for you
So you were lying when you said God would give them a million dollars?
in the words of St. Augustine "we can ask for in prayer what we lawfully desire"
1 million dollors will not be in that category.
the salvation of yourself, and your neighbor is.
well god has planned a greater reward for them
If God will give you a million dollars if you ask him, why are there religious people starving? Did they just not think to ask?
I don't pray, and I'm doing alright
without prayer you are just like a piece of metal that can not do anything but produce a sound you need someone to help you you might get a dollar by your hands but god will give you a million more dollars if you ask him can i ask you a question what do you get from talking to your father ?
No atheist would say that God was convinced to help anyone through prayer, and work would not be attributed to prayer regardless of decisions and thoughts on will. So here is a statement I think everyone should agree with. If you are willing to pray for it, you should be willing to work for it. This shouldn't turn into another religious debate, and the topic suggests that those who pray do not work, and are exclusive. Since this is not true, and both are not done at the same time, and it can be agreed upon that those who help themselves (notice that God is a "help those who help themselves" or a "doesn't help because he doesn't exist" sort of topic) or others are helped because action is taken. Because there are alternatives of varying results in comparison to prayer in terms of motivation, and providing piece of mind there is nothing like it, and no atheist would say there is purpose in prayer, though not necessarily a bad thing either. So if we agree that work is work and prayer is prayer, then prayer is not judged just by when the hands are clasped as work is not the instant of sweat and incomplete action, because work is not done when a job is done, you stop working when you have actually accomplished, and continue to go farther. Though I would say same with prayer, it will continue as what happens when hands are held and not what happens afterwards.
And on the verdict of two hands versus a thousand, I have already put my input that prayer involves the work, but if work has to be distinguished, then what about situations where work doesn't actually apply? What if it is impossible to do work to help someone, such as in a case of depression or a feeling of lacking fulfillment? Would getting counseling be much different from meditation, or searching for purpose just as possible? For some prayer is the answer, and knowing that others are willing to appeal to what they believe is the highest authority, is kind. While there can be considered alternatives, it can't be said that prayer can't be an answer, and even a small effectiveness, one thousand hands can stack and outweigh the two other hands.
But that's arguing prayer with a purpose, prayer with no purpose is easily summed up as a placebo, and can't go further than that. Which is why and argument for prayer has more depth, and an argument for with five hundred times the typical result suggests in some cases could be more effective. And work isn't secular or religious, it is just a fact of life.
of course for atheists ( or agnostics) prayer does nothing because without God there is no reason to pray.
If anything, prayer is to help your brain calm down by giving it a little false hope that a superior entity is going to somehow Give you the strength to do a physical task.
However, the same effect can be obtained when there are a 1000 hands actively, physically, HELPING you solve your difficult tasks rather than being somewhere in a holy place clasping their hands chanting prayers.
Therefore, in a practical sense, prayer is a means of gathering courage which can be obtained by other methods but there is no substitute for physical work.
but good work is still important, and needed.
that would be true if work was the only possible thing to do.
prayer helps you get a better relationship with God, and go to heaven, think deeper, ect.
so while work does work, prayer does other things more important then earthly work.
you have agreed that prayer does nothing in a concrete sense. at best prayer can motivate you to do work. But you have to actually stop praying to go and do that work. So the prayer itself didn't do anything. You working did.
are you delusional again historybuff?
I'm saying you have conceded this debate. The fact that you did not realize this is funny.
and isn't that funny historybuff thought he finally won a debate.
prayer does not directly do work, but does other stuff.
the topic simply says "more" not "more work"
so the debate topic is settled. prayer does not do work. therefore one pair of hands doing something has accomplished more than a thousand hands doing nothing but praying.
prayer doesn't do work, it does other stuff. including asking God to motivate someone to work.
so you agree. the prayer is not doing anything concrete. at best it can motivate you to work. but you are still the one doing the work. not God. so they prayer itself didn't do any work.
well he works with you but you will have to do something for god to increase it for you
So God offers guidance but doesn't actually do any work. Therefore two hands working do more.
well you must work to earn your living but you must also pray to grow spiritually to get closer to god god is just like our father he guides us in the dark and is the light in the darkest moments
That's a great imaginary example, but we still don't see go doing any work in it. We see him guide you to get a job so your two hands can work though.
no if you pray god will solve your problems
iam going to give you an example let's assume that you are having alot of problems and that you decided to commit suicide and then god sends you someone who will employ you who will give you alot of money
So if I pray, God will clean my house for me? Strange, it hasn't worked so far.
when you need god he will be there *
well cleaning the house has nothing to do with god but you need god he will be there for you
no you are wrong if you ask god he will help you
well if you don't believe try it
Neither are likely to be effective, so either one is as good.
Are you ever planning to answer my question?
well if you are in an exam and you forgot what the answer to the question is what are going to do pray or work ?
If you pray that your house gets clean, would you expect it to suddenly be spotless?
well i disagree two hands that are praying are aided by two hands from heaven so the work will be blessed and four hands can do more work than two
Again, try telling that to the police. "No officer, I swear I wasn't going to have him kill his son. I just told him to and got him to come out here with a knife to see if he would do it. I was always going to stop him."
His plan was never to have anyone killed, but to test abraham to see who he would choose- God, or his son. Once abraham chose God, God rewarded him with not killing his son.
The police don't know what you are thinking, but if you talk to someone and agree to take their child out and stab them to death it is conspiracy to commit murder.
so you are saying you know what God was thinking, and what his plan was?
Depend on the religions. A true Christian can do it.
Yes, he decided not to order his believer to sacrifice his son. He is still guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, just not of the murder itself. Try using that defence in court and see how it goes.
if you continued to read the passage you would have seen that God saved the child.
That is not true based on the Bible. I would say killing your son counts as a bad thing, but the Bible recounts God telling someone to. What do you base your belief that God is the source of all good thoughts?
Prayer works just like any superstitious act. A belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding or the like. Religious people use confirmation bias to confirm the prayer worked. For example : Someone prays they get a certain job before an interview. If they get the job, he/she believes it was because of the prayer. If they didnt, God has a different plan. So despite the outcome, its confirmed. Even when I used to be a Christian, I would question the point of prayer. If God has a plan in place, his plan will happen anyway with or without a prayer. Even praying to bless the food. This implies God chooses who eats and who doesn't. If prayer actually worked for one of the many religions that practice it, it would be evident.
Good thought= God bad thought= Devil
we decide which one to do. that's our free will.
can you prove that God made them do it? it is far more likely they just changed their mind.
do you have never seen anyone change their mind from doing a bad thing to a Good thing?
But it is the hands that the Holy Spirit inspires that do the work, and I have yet to ever see proof of the Holy Spirit inspiring someone to do something they weren't already inclined to do.
The Holy Spirit can influence one to go out and feed someone because of the 500 people who prayed. one could also ask God for the strength to go out and feed the hungry.
I can see your perspective on prayer getting you closer to God, but that isn't relevant to this particular debate.
If 500 people pray for the starving to be fed nonstop for days, how many of those starving people will have food? If 1 of those people goes out and works to feed the starving, they may not feed them all, but they will be able to help some. Until hands stop praying and start working, no work gets done.
Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with prayer. Expressing your wishes for someone to receive help is in no way a bad thing. There isn't anything you or I can do to help stop the fighting in Syria, but praying for God to help them is an expression of your heartfelt desire for things to get better. That is nothing but good. I just disagree with the topic specifically because prayer in and of itself does not get work done, not because I think praying is bad.
CORRECT prayer does something that two hands can't do- get you close to God and ultimately to heaven. GOOD work does something prayer can't do- show God and others you are a good person.
now there is bad prayer and bad works like praying for a new Sportscar, or stealing one, those are bad and do the opposite of what I stated above.
I understand what you are saying, but it still seems fundamentally flawed to claim that the prayer is accomplishing anything. If you are saying that the prayer is inciting some of the people to work, it is still only those hands that stop being clasped in prayer and start working that are helping. Until those hands stop being clasped, they are just asking for help rather than helping themselves.
I see it more as a matter of purpose and accomplishment, rather than just accomplishment. A prayer intends that people work, and comparing work as a separate particle doesn't mean that prayer does not include work. We could debate whether it is fair to say that out of a thousand clasped hands only so many work, but should two be willing to work out of those thousand (or rather, one person) then it is equivalent in the amount of work. It is saying that one person that works alone, compared to five hundred that do pray, not one out of the five hundred take action.
Religiously, it is put as "faith without good works is dead." Secularly, it is put as "where there is smoke, there is fire." If those praying have a fire, a purpose, and even if things aren't handed to them, then work should come naturally. Perhaps persist further than the normal individual, but whose to say?
Even if that isn't guaranteed, it is still a gamble that out of 500, not 1 would work out of sense of duty, purpose, or need for help that caused the request. Point being, the work is a part of prayer, and though not all if it may be necessary, that extra bit may as well be a motivation. Again, discrepancies in normal individuals can be found, bug it's still a gamble.
And at this point, there is the question of what constitutes a prayer in comparison to a complaint. I don't know too many people that would pray, then expect to get what they want by acting counter to their desire. And as that is distinguished, it would seem that all five hundred would indeed work, so could we say there is no gamble on that? Not entirely impossible. Five hundred working versus one is my argument, prayer requires work, even if not the other way around.
If I pray, then work, the work is still what is accomplishing the task. Combining the two does not change the fact that you cannot demonstrate prayer effectively accomplishing anything. Saying otherwise is like saying washing hands performs more bypass surgeries than performing surgery. Yes, surgeons wash their hands first, but that is not what accomplishes the surgery.
yes, do you have a problem with that?
But that "mythical creature" wants you to work too.
prayer is asking a all powerful, all good being to do something all knowing, and all powerful, or to thank him. both ways it is getting on the all powerful beings good side so you can go to heaven, and heaven can't be done on just works, or just faith. you need both.
prayer is asking a mythical creature to help you. since it accomplishes absolutely nothing then by default, any amount of work is doing more.
MrShine is right. That's what I was going to say. These people agreeing do not know what a true prayer is
Two hands can work and pray, some work and some pray differently. A true prayer does not sit back and do nothing, but plunges it's hands into the dirt physically. If you did not work, then your plea was not a prayer, it was a complaint.
two hands in prayer can do more then a thousand working.