The debate "United States education system needs to be fixed. Because we pay to much and no good outcomes" was started by
March 27, 2016, 11:49 am.
34 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 7 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
openparachute posted 1 argument, Alex posted 16 arguments, PsychDave posted 27 arguments, Pugsly posted 5 arguments, Maximus posted 38 arguments, ReadyToBegin posted 7 arguments to the agreers part.
RyanWakefield posted 1 argument, Maximus posted 7 arguments, danielle posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
Pugsly, PsychDave, openparachute, Alex, ReadyToBegin, ReedMurphy, djchivers, Awanda, BlueMouse, mike5193, Austin7779 and 23 visitors agree.
Maximus, danielle and 5 visitors disagree.
oh,.. sorry. I just now got what you were asking. His Name was Charles Baer.
what braniac, broseph?
no i was asking to maximus
whats the name of that brainiac
thank you maximus. I admire the way you have acted. I find it frustrating when someone is disagreeing with something I'm passionate about and definitely find it hard to admit it when I'm wrong! so I admire you for that!
no, you didn't seem like that at all. your kindness is what made me stop and think. I was being nasty and that really grabbed me.
it's half past one now haha! haha it's okay maximus! I'm sorry if I seemed like a know it all haha!/
by whenever I mean that if I decide I don't want to go this year, in a few years time say when I'm 30 I could still go! I wouldn't get the same grants and loans etc but I could still go!
yeah, my bad. Good day, kind sir. lol
its 12:30PM in england maximus. probably say her good afternoon.
there was a kid that used to leave middle school half day and they would bus him personally to the highschool and he was taking several highschool courses. He was a brainiac. Then in highschool around 10th grade they were taking him to a local college that is actually very good nearly Ivy league. A small liberal arts school.
Danielle, good morning. I am really sorry!
what do you mean by whenever. 18-19 is the only age we can start going to an university.
yeah university here is normally 18-19 wjne you start, but you can go whenever really
indian system is similar to british system. i am 15. i study in class 10. i have just appeared my summative assesment 2 exams
I would too! Most people start at 18-19 in America. I like what the UK system sounds like already!
In America they have exams,like you said, graded by teachers (High school and college), but there are also STATE tests that are given and graded. There are also AP (if your child/you are in a college level class in high school) that sound (from what you said ) like that. They grade differently depending on how everyone does overall as well.
In college it's just a bunch of exams!
some of them are P/F
ueah, but in UK F is still a grade. U stands for ungraded! i got a couple of them, hence why I'm retaking haha
I get it! we do a similar thing, if you get say 40/50 this is called the raw mark and is converted to UMS marks which you then workout your grade from!
confusing since fail starts with F not U
at GCSE it goes A*, A, B, C, D, E, F ,G then a U which is a fail / ungraded
at A-levels it's A-E for the first year and a U if you fail
for the second yeah it's A*-E and a U is a fail
I just took a latin exam where the class got a average of 60% on. we all got F.
It depends on what school you go to whether they adjust the marks or not. When they do adjust marks, they tend to apply a Bell Curve. I will link the Wikipedia page since it does a decent job explaining, but the basics is that the top 20% get an A whether they got 95% or 15% on the test.
an E? we go A B C D skip E and go straight to F for fail. we americans really let you know it if you fail.
I've also noticed you call university college? I told an American once that I started at 16 and they thought I was super intelligent haha/
no you've pretty much got it spot on, I have never been to America let alone to an American school so I was curious haha
something I've seen as well is that American grades are harder to achieve although I don't know if that's true.
Apparently your final exams are marked by your own teachers???
ours are done in strict exam halls and the sent off to which ever exam board you are following, mine are mostly AQA, but one is WJEC at GCSE I also had OCR and EDEXL.
It's then a 2 month wait till the results. During this time our papers are sent to examiners all round the country. One examiner may mark all the question 1's and someone else may mark question 2 etc. They make hundreds of papers each and a few (maybe 50-100) a re-marked by a cheif examiner. If the marks stay the same that's good, howber if they mark the paper differently all papers are re-marked. so there's a lot of irritability about grades. I got a paper back once to see where I went wrong, my teacher looked at it, and said (her being an examiner herself) that they had marked it really harshly!!
Another point about our system that's conterversial is that they chagne the grade boundaries depending on how the year group does. for example if one year no one gets more than 50% then 50% will be the A, but the opposite is also true, if one year no one gets less than 70% then 70% will be the E. My science GCSE paper was 50% for an A, but my biology ISA was 60% for an E! not fair if you ask me!!
That is what I've found when looking into the differences. Since I have never attended a UK school, my information is based on what I have found when researching. If I've misrepresented something or misunderstood something, please correct me.
hmm well, we have pre-scool which is kids aged 2-4, then we have reception class which are 4-5 year olds,
then we have key stage 1which are
year 1 = 5-6
year 2 = 6-7
then the key stage 2 which are
year 3 = 7-8
year 4 = 8-9
year 5 = 9-10
year 6 = 10-11
this is when you finish primary school, you then go to secondary school which is
key stage 3
year 7= 11-12
year 8 = 12-13
year 9 = 13-14
Up until this point you've being following a set curriculum, in our school we did maths, English, science, French, ict, PE, religion, geography, history, drama, art, music. But at year 9 you get to pick your GCSE's. You have to continue with maths, English, science, PE, ict and religion butbyou get to pick 4 others. I did art, child development, Spanish and geography.
you're then in key stage 4
year 10 = 14-15
year 11 = 15-16
Now you have to pick your A-levels which you will either do at college or a sixth form (it's the same thing, I'm in a sixth form)
you can do anything you want now, so I do Spanish, biology and psychology.
This is key stage 15
year 12 = 15-17
year 13 = 17-18
(I'm in year 13 now, although I'm a year older as I'm.retaking the year so technically I'm a year 14 student)
after this it's university or work!
In the UK students specialize earlier and to a greater degree than in American education. British students pick their direction much earlier, so their knowledge of that subject is far more in depth, but their knowledge base is less broad.
American schools tend to be a bit if everything until college, and even then there tends to be more general knowledge and less specialized knowledge. In English colleges there doesn't tend to be students with undeclared majors since they have long since picked what they are working toward.
The up side to the American style is that if someone changes their mind about what they want to do, it is easier to transition into a different path since the basics are likely already there. The benefits to the British system is that it takes less time and produces students with more knowledge in their area of expertise.
The other problem in America that is that students are falling through the cracks. Schools are overpopulated, underfunded and so students aren't meeting basic expectations.
third grade is 9 year Olds. not sure anything about British school, so I can't help you there.
also what does things like third grade mean? like how old are third graders?
how does American school differ from British schooling??
whatever makes your landing softer.. homie.
riiiiight. ; ) Since I can't you better.
Since you can't seem to string two thoughts together, I think I've allowed you to detail this debate far enough. In going to ignore your childish taunts unless they actually relate to the education system.
you can't put icing on horse manure and tell me it's cake.
i agree with you about what you are saying. believe me! i never for a minute wpuld accuse you of being a level headed individual.
the wording ia different the act is the same. i mean that's cut and dry.
I was active on the abortion debate and feel that women deserve a choice. That is very different from thinking babies are disposable. That is why I said you were misrepresenting my beliefs. Do you understand that yet or is it still too tough for you?
In the teachers being replaced by computers I said that computers were not able to think abstractly enough and so wouldn't be able to replace human teachers. What part of that do you disagree with?
Finally, I don't care about convincing you of anything. You think God sent a flood to wipe out half-angel giants and that aliens are really just demons, so your belief or lack thereof is in no way indicative of reality. I am mostly responding to your ravings because I don't want others reading these debates later to think you actually knew what you were talking about or that you won. I'm not terribly concerned about that at this point because anyone reading any debate you have participated in would seem the streams of comments without substance.
Now, I know, there is yet another face saving lie coming. But when you do it, know that you are only trying to convince yourself, because you won't be convincing me.
sure it was computers taking over for teachers
hah! now you officially are a head case! If you think you won or didn't lose anything, you certainly lost your mind!
excuse me, Did you not rant about abortions?
I don't feel babies are disposable, therefore by saying you are misrepresenting my beliefs. If that is too complex a thought for you, you have my sympathy.
Which debate do you feel you played me like a fiddle? I have yet to see you succeed in any debate at anything other than looking like a petulant child. Which technology debate do you feel you trapped me in?
and I play you like a fiddle. Hell, I even threw one topic opposite of how I actually felt about technology and you argued that. So it proves my point.
you chase.. I'm out front
there is no misrepresenting in my statement.
Am i lying, is that what you are saying?
You claimed that everyone being against you showed you were on top. I was pointing out that you were wrong. Take it how you want, but I don't feel babies are disposable. The fact that you can't defend yourself without misrepresenting me shows exactly how "on top" you are.
well comparing me to a pedaphile is totally unacceptable and a shot below the belt. No class. And this is coming from a guy with a child that thinks babies are disposable.
Everyone is against paedophiles, that doesn't mean they are on top. It means they are the worst examples of humanity. Being disliked isn't inherently a mark of honour.
And for the record, I will be opposed no matter what. I'm good with it though. You know you are on top when everyone is aiming at you.
dave, you find it creepy when you can't call someone racist or sexist. It's your kid, act as you like.
i dont work. i go to school. tenth grader buddy.
my work doesn't require me to get up early often, so I get 6-10 hours of sleep every night.
ha ha are you guys fool? when there is no school i sleep until 8 from 10:30PM at night with my AC on and my music system playing oliver's 'get down the saturday night' in the morning. i suggest alex and maximus to sleep atleast for 8 hours.
dang you guys were up all night. I never fall asleep before midnight, but this app ain't worth all night.
I took it in the spirit it was offered, as a polite greeting. Do you find it creepy when people say hi to you?
and whats creepy about that?
president, thats kinda creepy bud. Telling the guy to say hi to his infant.
dave what do you do? engineer
Thanks. Will do.
say hi to your infant daughter.
I have an infant daughter who decided not to sleep when she wasn't being held last night /this morning, so I wasn't sleeping much.
Maximus, I have backed many of my arguments with proof. In this particular case, I have explained what proof I am trying to get, and referenced it's existence. The fact that they did carbon dating should be well known to you since many of the conspiracy sites use a variety of methods to try to disprove it's results, so whether the test was done and what the results were was not in question. So far the main excuse for why the mortar is not old enough is that the tower was torn down, then rebuild again later. I can't find any proof that this is true, but that is the claim for why the mortar isn't old enough for it to be pre-Columbus.
Dave is worried about his braindeath being exposed so he fears me daily, pres.
Dave, you ran your face right away and said "no it wasn't", without a clue. That in itself shows you are a nobody.
@maximus and dave
dont you people sleep at night. it might be night in the US.
what have you EVER proved since I've been here? NOTHING!
What details have you furnished? You spouted an opinion then failed to provide any evidence whatsoever. If you are going to lie, at least try to pick something that we don't just have to read through the thread to disprove.
ReadytoBegin has done more to support your belief than you.
He likes to keep saying conspiracy theory and paranoid but that just shows how stupid and absolutely in the dark he is. What's funny is that he willingly yelps on here all that trash and he has NO idea of what is really going on. It's bad enough that he doesn't know what is really going on but to then talk all kinds of trash.. that makes him look rediculous!
I furnish details or resources for my input.. Dave, he just runs his face and gos to get bloggers pages that are activists with agendas to prove his biased point.
dave is psycho spaz job that discredits real logic. He's not a real man but a liberal mouthpiece. Aint that right Dave?
Ya. I think I owe Alex am apology. I thought he was just being a troll sometimes but he was never as stubbornly ignorant.
And for the record I don't dislike Alex. I disagree with him on many subjects, and he frustrates me sometimes, but at least he is arguing from a genuine opinion.
"Its age and builders have never been firmly established."
It keeps saying that it might of been before but maybe not. On the offical site the writer also says that he assumes. I'll keep looking.
hmm... someone dave dislikes more than Alex... interesting.
On a different note, I don't know of a better way to check teachers.
That still isn't debating. Keep trying. I'm sure you'll figure it out eventually.
you are NOBODY. You can tell me nothing about debates. I've abused you and you need to rest. Clearly you need to.
You still don't seem to understand how debates work so I'll explain again. If you make a claim, you have to give evidence to support it. I don't believe you, so either prove me wrong or admit that you can't.
you only need to worry about evidence to support your claim.. ok?
Still have no evidence to support your claim huh? Don't worry. The law of big numbers says that eventually you will make a claim you can back up, even if it's just by luck.
you are seriously as dumb as a bag of hammers.
why do you use stale stuff. Get over paranoid already. Nobody buys it or cares. Think about how stupid and zombie-like you are when you say that about a tower in rhode island. Why would someone be paranoid either way?!? Think before you type ffs! There is no limit or ceiling to your stupidity.
Saying "I support my argument" isn't the same as providing support for it. I'm asking for something other than your paranoid delusional opinion on the subject. Until you provide some kind of evidence, why should I need evidence to disagree with you.
Beyond that simple fact, I have already said I am trying to find a copy of the study that disagrees that is not behind a pay wall. Either shut up and wait or provide some evidence of your own.
i did stupid.. i support it. now disprove.. toolbag
You made a claim. Support it or accept that you have no valid argument.
Listen BOY, i'm not here to cater to you. You can't disprove it and you pointed that out. So stfu.
Still not seeing any proof. Put up or shut up.
you have an impulse to be an idiot and blame others for your malfunctions. Own your failures for once in your life.
hey, just because you maintain a certain level of stupidity with pride doesnt make everything a conspiracy theory; but rather you a stupid, lazy fool.
You made an argument without proof, therefore it can be similarly dismissed. If you don't like it, try debating instead of just spouting conspiracy theories.
psycho dave: "no it wasnt" ...
great answer. thanks mr. brilliant.
I know Wikipedia isn't a very good reference (though it does tend to be a decent jumping off point since it usually cites original sources. I am trying to get a copy of the carbon dating paper it mentions but so far it is behind a pay wall and I an not curious enough to pay for it. I will keep trying and repost when I have something concrete.
"The tower has received attention due to speculation that it is actually several centuries older and would thus represent evidence of pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact. Carbon dating shows this belief to be incorrect." - a reliable Internet source (wiki) haha.
No, it wasn't.
it was built and sitting there in RI before Columbus ever got to the US.
Dave, look up the Newport Tower.
teacher reform needs to happen and will be step 1 in my education plan. any suggestions on how to get rid of bad teachers without firing good teachers. once we do that, keeping teachers good will be easy.
"I did not say to get rid of the standard school have but we should have a country wide standard."
- I didn't say you said that. My sentence implies we differ on the way to impliment standards. Everyone agrees there should be standards.
"Plus, this with someone watching the teachers we can easily find the bad teachers.
In the United States each state has a standard but, the country it self does not.
The teachers are checked twice a year by someone they know. If we do it my way they won't have the ability to pull at the heart."
- In refrence to being checked twice a year by someone they know, are you talking about now or your new plan? Plently of teachers can put on a show that only testing and quizing can reveal.
"And this testing shit is stupid. If I fail one they don't do anything.
Hell, I used to fail all my classes Istep testing. They didn't do anything."
- They are suppose to do something. How many years ago was that? It could be the effect of a last reform or overturned reform. The testing data has been kept track of by the government and it does actually help. There just isn't a reason for all of them.
I feel like they tell the truth now (to older grades that is and college students).
I agree with dave. That's not a good idea.
Kind of what I said.
about the teachers, the firing 1 teacher a year isn't a good plan, I believe we must do something to find the bad teachers, and threaten other teachers to teach good.
I know the Vikings were here first but I had never heard that the knights Templar were. Could you provide a link for that because I'd like to know more?
that would be great
maybe if they try telling the truth? Columbus didnt discover America. The Indians lived here! So I think they did. But also, the Knight's templar and vikings were also here before Columbus. Time to tell the truth.
I think the problem is when do you stop arbitrarily firing teachers. If one school has 10 bad ones, it would take 10 years. If another only had 3, that is 7 good teachers with ruined careers since no school would ever hire them again after being fired for "not being good enough."
What about the difference between large schools and small. A rural school might have 20 teachers while a NY NY school might have 200. Sheer numbers means that there are more bad teachers in the bigger school, but by the time they are all gone the rural school might have gone through their entire staff several times.
The idea of firing one teacher per year is just too arbitrary to be effective. Some kind of grading system to find the best teachers would be far more effective and less damaging to the system.
kids don't get the right education now, so why is 1 year a problem. I'm sure every large public school has multiple teachers who aren't good teachers. if a teacher gets fired they can easily apply for a teaching job at another school. but at the point when all the bad teachers are gone, there won't be any cuts.
Okay so after we get rid of one a year there will still be kids that don't get the right education for a whole year.
Then after we get rid of them all then a good teacher will end up getting fired just to make sure they meet the requirements.
I would say make schools Fire at least 1 teacher a year for a good amount of time until we get good teachers. also take some taxpayer money being spend on freeloaders and give it to the teachers. after my education and welfare reforms, teachers will get huge raises, but teaching won't be a easy job to get.
I did not say to get rid of the standard school have but we should have a country wide standard. Plus, this with someone watching the teachers we can easily find the bad teachers.
In the United States each state has a standard but, the country it self does not.
The teachers are checked twice a year by someone they know. If we do it my way they won't have the ability to pull at the heart.
And this testing shit is stupid. If I fail one they don't do anything.
Hell, I used to fail all my classes Istep testing. They didn't do anything.
I have a feeling teachers and schools aren't going to like being watched 24/7. They already watch them quite a bit (with checks and such).
Like I said before and Dave said later, there needs to be some standards and ways to go about them but I don't think that is the answer.
We should keep some testing. Just not the obnoxious number we have right now. Teachers should have more freedoms, but I am think we should make it harder to become a teacher and there should be higher pay. (There are tons of bad teachers who DO NOT need full power in a classroom).
I think we should have a standard but, instead of having a test that takes time and is pointless we'll just have people always watching the class rooms that don't work for the school directly.
Most come over for the experience. My german cousin did it and she said that American school is very easy and not very productive compared to German school.
where I went to school there was common core, but that was for people who didn't know what they wanted to so. There were plenty of other plans one could do to graduate above your peers who just did common core.
the only difference would be HUGE encouragement to do better then the minimum. it won't be expectations, but minimum. schools who do the minimum will be not funded. the local education levels will be in charge of what books, lesson plans, ect. do get kids into collage, and do teach kids how to learn.
So if we threw out the common core, what would you replace it with? We could dismantle the common core and replace it with a set of expectations of what students should know in each grade. That sounds pretty much like what the common core is supposed to be. I don't disagree that it needs to be overhauled, but you are basically saying it should be replaced with something exactly like it.
common core needs to be tacken off. there can still be a minimum standard. schools will be encouraged to go above and beyond it. schools that produce more collage scholarships will get more funding and such. schools will then try to be good. common core just does nothing. a vote for common core is a vote for low education ranking. the goverment should push education up, not allow schools to be low.
I agree with most of that. The only part I disagree with is the idea that education should be left to the local level. There have to be standards or else the level of education means almost nothing. Getting 95% at a bad school could still not be able to get in because the colleges would know the school is bad. There needs to be some consistency for the marks to mean anything.
Otherwise I agree.
Why do over 500,000 foreign students come to America to learn then? Education does teach memorize now though. The latter part is just society though. Sports are associated with money is all.
america is near last in all the education studies and rankings. we have 5% of the world's population and 25% of the inmates. Cleary our education is bad.
public schools today teach kids how to memorize, not how to learn. first common core needs to be ripped up, and burned. education should be left to the local level.
and what happens today to the sports star? they get a trophy and is the school hero. what happens to the academic star? they get a National honor society certificate and get a pat on the head "there, there little nerd" being smart seems like a bad thing and makes you unpopular. why would anyone want to be smart? that needs to change.
If everyone has a degree what is a degree worth? Also, high school is (pretty much) free and there are still drop outs. Not everyone is meant for college.
I wouldn't scrap all exams. We need something to keep uniform educational experiences across America. I would reduce the number.
I didn't mean to disagree with the post
the best way to improve education: scrap exams. Teachers know what they are doing, and they would start teaching important things rather than wasting time by teaching kids how to pass exams.
agreed, but education also lies on the will of the people and if they're willing to actually learn instead of f@#% around