The debate "Was Judas evil or was he doing God's work" was started by
January 13, 2016, 10:16 pm.
10 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 15 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
PsychDave posted 11 arguments to the agreers part.
AngryBlogger posted 1 argument, PoliticsAsUsual posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
PsychDave, wmd, LiberalDemocrat, WolfiesMom, ZenithOmega and 5 visitors agree.
AngryBlogger, ReedMurphy, historybuff, giw2000rgos, PoliticsAsUsual and 10 visitors disagree.
I understand was just trying to explain.
that's why I surrounded it with question marks. I'm not sure of the implications. I just wanted to share this narrative since we were discussing judas.
"dwelled on the physical including animal sacrifice, and ?possibly cannibalism? which eventually turned into the symbolic eating and drinking of jesus's body and blood."
so we are told the last supper is where it comes from not animal sacrifice and cannibalism.
his followers were stunned. think like if u were one. here is a guy with God's every power but u don't seem to understand where his limit is (because there isn't one:-).) so u r always surprised when he does these things. think about here's a guy who is raising the dead, healing the sick, casting out demons, multiplying bread and fish and wine from water, and walking on water to name a few. would u not be in awe and wouldn't u not care to question such a man. if u were not so curious of course. I mean personally I would but they didn't even know he was the son of God for the longest time
Yes, the last supper took place shortly before Jesus was killed. None of his disciples understood the significance of the bread when Jesus said "this is my body, broken for you" or the wine when he said "this is my blood, she'd for you" (exact wording may be off since it's been a long time).
On am unrelated side note, I always found it odd that Jesus said those things and none of his followers questioned it.
it sounds like it favors him quite a bit. though who knows. personally it sounds to fishy. also correct me if I'm wrong but the eating thing was done at the last supper BEFORE Jesus died and came back
it is believed no. it was dated to the 2nd century.
did Judas write it?
this is where I think the Bible relates to multiple timeline theory. also free will comes in play. I mean we really can't have free will if there's only one timeline can we say we gave free will? also if u could save a guy one time out of a hundred wouldn't u still try to?
it was a gnostic gospel dated to the 2nd century. in it Judas betrayed jesus at the request of jesus, sacrificing his reputation for all of time in order to help jesus fulfill his divine mission / political statement.
it also claims that judas was the only disciple who understood jesus's spiritual message as opposed to the others who dwelled on the physical including animal sacrifice, and ?possibly cannibalism? which eventually turned into the symbolic eating and drinking of jesus's body and blood.
No actually. I had not.
have you ever heard of the gospel of judas?
That's exactly it. Jesus knew everything, so when he called to Judas he already knew what the outcome would be. While that doesn't mean Judas didn't make the decision, Jesus knowingly put him in a position where he knew Judas would sin. That's why I compared it to the rock on a hill. If I knowingly push it towards a someone, the rock could change direction slightly and miss them. With Jesus and Judas there isn't even that uncertainty. Jesus knows the outcome and calls Judas anyways.
there was many outcomes. Jesus wanted the one where Judas was with him but Judas succumbed to sin.
Jesus knows everything, but we have free will so we truly determine what actions we take. That same logic would continue into universal predestination.
The problem is that Jesus knew that by calling Judas to follow him, Judas would betray him. Had Jesus not called him, Judas could have lived a long life and not committed the sins he did. By calling him knowing the outcome, Jesus set him on the path. If I roll a rock down a hill and injure someone, is the rock at fault or the person who set it in motion?
do u think that's the Judas we're talking about? yeah he is a great singer but we're talking about the one in the Bible.:-)
Judas Priest was a good singer though
God won't throw anything ur way if u can't handle it but where r u going with this?
Suffering is a very valuable thing if you have the strength and faith to persevere.
true. God can turn any situation into his plan. i wouldn't say hes evil or that it was originally part of the plan.
Judas wasn't confronted with his vice, but the love of Christ. Being witness to such testament, he was willing to give it all up for a bag of silver. Judas chose to commit a grave sin, but the sin brought forth suffering that unleashed the true glory of God.
Just because someone causes you to suffer, and this suffering brings you triumph in the eyes of God, they are still fully to blame for their sins.
he wasn't evil. he was man. a being of danger because of one thing. free will. right now we are choosing dozen of things. some good some bad but there our own.
when Judas did this I dont feel angry at him. instead I feel sorry for him. he fell to greed and hated it. I think he asked for forgiveness later on and Jesus accepted him into heaven. though take this as u will.
if Jesus hadn't called him then there wouldn't have been as great of chance for redemption. Judas faltered but is human. Jesus knew but tried to get him to see the light. God loves u and if there's even a chance of getting u to be with Him he will do it
as I said before there are other ways for jesus to die without judas. the Jewish leaders were going to kill jesus anyway
given that God is omniscient and planned Jesus' sacrifice, he knew Judas was going to betray Jesus, so its gods fault for planning it out.
But Jesus influenced his life for years. If Jesus hadn't called him, he wouldn't have been in the situation. If you set a bottle of alcohol in front of an alcoholic, are you without blame if they drink? And that is without being all-knowing and knowing, for a fact, that if you set that bottle down they WILL drink.
either way judas still had a choice, and betrayed jesus.
You are avoiding the topic and ignoring the arguments. I am not saying Jesus forced Judas to do anything, so please stop arguing against something no one is claiming and respond to the arguments made.
Jesus called Judas to follow him. When he did so, he either did it knowing that this would lead to Judas betraying him, or he is not all knowing (which is counter to Catholic doctrine). He is creating the situation, and putting someone in it that he knows will turn him in. In a legal situation, that is called entrapment.
can jesus make us do things? God has advised many people to do things, they have not listed. how is that on God.
it's not God's falt if I sin
Or that Jesus tried to change him and failed, showing that Jesus was not infallible. That is something that is wholly incompatible with Catholic doctrine.
That would imply that Jesus didn't know something, which would be counter to the belief that he was divine and knew everything.
okay, ever heard to keep close those you don't trust? Jesus picked judas as a disciple so judas might come to love jesus and not betray him.
My point wasn't that Jesus made Judas do it, it was that Jesus picked him as a disciple specifically so that he would do it. Or are you saying that Jesus didn't know Judas would betray him when he called on Judas to follow him?
"But had he not, Jesus would not have suffered for our sins"
the Jews were out to kill jesus, sooner or later they would have got him. with judas or without him. Judas was not the only way jesus could suffer.
about Satan. this text could be interpreted 2 ways. 1. Judas was influenced to son by Satan, Satan told judas he could sin, Judas listed, sinned by taking the money and betrayed jesus. this is very common and happens to everyone when we sin.
2. a demon actually possessed judas. in this case judas would not be able to use free will. for a demon to posses you, one still has to let the demon in. I doubt this happened because at that time all demonic possessions had the people doing crazy stuff, or saying wierd things. Judas acted pretty normal, and had judas been possessed jesus would not have acted as judas had a choice.
your reasons about Jesus knowing would disprove all free will, and make everyone without sin. if this was true jesus would have no point dying. God did not say "Let's make judas turn us in so we can die for sins that nobody did"
But had he not, Jesus could not have suffered for our sins. Jesus knew no only that he was going to be taken, but who was going to betray him. Jesus would have known this before he chose Judas to be one of his disciples. He would have known this before telling his disciples that one of them would betray him. If Jesus selected Judas for his disciple specifically so that he would turn him over to die, does that remove at least some of the blame from Judas?
There are two other factors that I feel diminish his culpability. The first is that Jesus says "What you are about to do, do quickly" at the last supper. Jesus is explicitly telling Judas to turn him over to the authorities.
The second factor is the fact that, in every translation I have read, preceding Jesus telling Judas to betray him, Satan enters him (Judas). While God does not force people to act against their free will, it is accepted in church doctrine that demons do. Otherwise demonic possession wouldn't actually pose any real risk since they couldn't make you do anything. If Satan actually entered Judas, rather than that simply being a figure of speech, it seems Judas did not betray Jesus so much as Satan possessed him and forced him. Jesus cast demons out of people on several occasions, but in this case he does not do so. Instead he tells "Judas" to get on with it.
Judas betrayed jesus. nuff said, even if Jesus wanted it and knew.
You have a damn good point, Dave. Wouldn't Judas go to hell for what he's done to Jesus? But if he's part of the ultimate cause for Jesus's rising, wouldn't that make him a holy instrument of God? If both of these are true, this would make God manipulative and cruel.
Am I mistaken? Haha I often miss things...
Every Easter the story of Judas betraying Jesus is told, but if he hadn't done so, Jesus could not have fulfilled his purpose on earth. Since it was God's plan to have Jesus die for our sins, was Judas evil for facilitating it or was he doing God's will all along.