The debate "We should bring back waterboarding" was started by
August 12, 2016, 6:00 pm.
8 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 9 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
dalton7532 posted 5 arguments, Alex posted 14 arguments, Blue_ray posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 15 arguments, thereal posted 1 argument, PsychDave posted 6 arguments, Najam1 posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
dalton7532, Alex, Blue_ray, NationalistGuy and 4 visitors agree.
thereal, PsychDave, Nemiroff, Momo, yabbster, Najam1, SwaggerPoptart and 2 visitors disagree.
Shooting someone in a war is very different from torturing a prisoner. Do you recognize that?
If ISIS is pointing to American treatment of prisoners as a recruitment tool, by telling the world prisoners will be treated with respect we remove that tool. That way fewer people need to die on both sides.
I'm not suggesting that we tell everyone exactly what interrogation methods the US uses. but even the possibility that America tortures it's prisoners is a huge liability. America needs to be able to point to law saying that they do not torture people. and if any evidence appears that it has been used then those who did should be criminally liable.
you don't tourture them then, whatever, you just don't say "if we capture you you'll be treated well" you don't say what you will do to them. the less the enemy knows the better
you don't know that. you don't know who the CIA tortures in secret prisons. maybe they are brutal terrorists. maybe they are a brutal terrorist's mother who happens to know things. you can't guarantee they will use torture only on horrible people.
and torture by its very nature makes your hands bloody. it makes you look evil. ISIS points to this and says look how they treat men fighting for God. you are handing them a great propaganda tool. and since torture has been PROVEN TO NOT WORK. you are just gifting them an extra weapon for no benefit at all.
stop with the "makes you no better then ISIS " bs. if I shoot an ISIS member in a war that doesn't make me no better then them. war is war. ISIS kills and tourtures inocents ISIS people aren't inocent
why aren't we warring with diplomacy and communication? adding up dead bodies instead of more diplomatic living humans is the stupidest way for any country to survive.
But that is exactly what waterboarding is. It doesn't do anything productive, it is immoral and it is illegal by American and international law. Studies have shown more efficient ways for getting information and they have shown the unreliability of information received from torture. Torture surrenders the moral high ground and makes you no better than ISIS. Publicly taking it off the table also robs ISIS of a recruitment tool since they can no longer claim America tortures Muslims. We should take it off the table if we know it serves absolutely no purpose and actually harms the effort to create a stable region.
historybuff and PyschDave you know when I say put things on the table it means everything logical that we could do.
like a pitcher in baseball will take throwing a fastball at a guys head off the table.
not actually a war. there is no more land to conquer. this is kill people with no anti-aircraft guns, navy, or nuclear weaponry unless they obey you like you are the only god himself.
well since it violates the Constitution and everything America stands for it should never have been an option.
please provide a reference for where the CIA said the committee under valued torture. because the director of the CIA was clear that there are better methods and he would not allow torture even if trump made it legal.
This is war, and people die. War is torture. If this is an enemy where people throw grenades and and the US bombs, how is water boarding known enemy combatants any different or any worse? I would rather be waterboarded than have a grenade blow my leg off and happen to survive with this painful injury in a third world country with bad hospitals.
The CIA has said the committees under valued the information gotten from waterboarding. It is quite clear it has some success rate. We should not remove cards of the table, and no one is advocating using this as a first option. We are only advocating it for a last result to use on wothless person to save meaningful lives. If there is a 1 percent success rate, we should never underestimate it or take it off the table, especially if it a last resort option.
so you think the fact that they aren't going to die makes torturing them ok? then we just burn them with hot pokers. that won't kill them. other than a little scarring they will be perfectly fine. or we could shock them with a car battery.
the fact that they aren't going to die isn't the critical factor. if we torture people just like they do, how are we better than they are?
and that still doesn't address the fact that torture doesn't even work. so you would just be torturing people out of revenge.
We are using interrogation methods that do not cause injury nor death. Beheading is totally out of place for American society.
They behead commit genocide, and ruin many lives to institute an Islamic regime. You insinuate if we waterboard to save Americam ideals and lives, we would be stooping to their level. Do you see something wrong with that picture?
First off the would be perfectly fine after one minute and it does not result in any injury. Second off, these people are known terrorist and people associated with ISIS and Al-Qeada. Sympathy should not lie with them. Humanity does not apply to them.
well if you want everything to be on the table maybe we should burn people alive? that would seriously teach them a lesson.
So you agree beheading people to prove a point should be on the table?
Hillary likes to take things of the table. she took putting ground troops overseas off the table. there is a reason the table is there. to put things on it. If you keep telling your enemies "we won't tourture or fight you on the ground" your telling the enemy to pick a plan where you need ground troops and tourture to defeat, and it narrows what your going to do.
it's like a pitcher saying "Hey Other team, I'm not throwing any curveballs today, so don't practice hitting those" Trump knows the art of the deal and how to give your enemy less of an advantage.
torture can get information. but that information could have been gotten in other ways that are more humane and more successful.
there is absolutely no evidence torture has gotten any actionable evidence since 911. none whatsoever. there is no reason to believe it is effective when other methods aren't.
Well, I agree there is better ways than tortue, but we shouldn't put it off the table. The CIA has said the committee under valued the information obtained from torture. If there is even a 5 percent success rate, we should not put it off the table, especially when it is to save Amrican lives. It has proven to have some success rate even if small, and I think it should not be let off the table. When did I say torture was great, or is that another gross misrepresentation of my views for your political convenience?
it's funny how when we provide sources that definitively prove them wrong the debate stops. but I bet they will bring up how great torture is later.
Alex, do research into it's effectiveness. It has been well known for hundreds of years that torture doesn't produce reliable information. Recently we have studies and research showing exactly that. So since you know we aren't getting any useful information out if it, the only reason left is to make the person suffer.
Regarding your belief that fear of torture will deter others, do the videos of ISIS beheading people make you want to let them have their way? I suspect they make you hate ISIS a bit more and more determined to stop them. What makes you think their psychology is so vastly different.
which is baffling. every agency agrees that it doesn't work. it doesn't save lives and it never has. so why do you believe it does?
haha, no I don't.
I believe tourtuing works and should be used to save lives.
Alex your ability to ignore facts is ridiculous. The FBI, the CIA and investigations of previous uses of waterboarding all agree it doesn't work. There is no evidence that it worked even once. Why are you still pushing for it to be used? do you just like torturing people?
the more humane ways of interagation never work because no fear, hunger, or money is used. unless money is used, but that's not going to happen.
way too much politics with head defence officials. similar to the reports people lied about ISIS to make it seem like we were winning, it's very hard to tell what's actually going on.
The CIA is not in favor of using waterboarding now. The head of the CIA has publicly said that it is not more effective than other more humane ways of interrogation.
He has also said that if trump won the election and tried to reinstate it he would refuse to allow any member of the CIA to use it.
The reason they supported it then was political. Being "hard on terrorism" was corner stone of the republican platform. They didn't use it because it worked, they used it because they needed the public to view them as the best choice for fighting terrorism.
historybuff why would the CIA then and now be in favor of tourture if it never works?
that article didn't prove torture works, did you actually read it? and besides, it was still referring to the same case i already proved that torture didn't work on.
torture does work
that article is from 2007. it is even more out if date. the CIA was very pro torture at the time. he is just outright lying. he claims that waterboarding has disrupted dozens of attacks. the article I linked to already has the results of a committee investigation where they found that it has never, not even once, averted an attack.
the idea that waterboarding works is all propaganda from bush era Republican government who used this as an issue to show they are hard on terrorists. the CIA was also very happy with having the power to torture people.
read this-------> http://m.newser.com/story/13800/ex-cia-agent-waterboarding-useful-torture.html
alex that article is about exactly the same case my article was about. your article was written 5 years earlier before the details were released.
a full investigation was done and they found no evidence that waterboarding has ever gotten actionable intelligence, including the case your article is referring to.
the CIA wanted to keep using torture so they lied about whether it works for the same reason you are doing it now.
They used waterboarding to find the info needed to find bin ladin
No Alex. Torture has been repeatedly shown to not be able to produce reliable information. Either do some research or abandon this debate because doing anything else will simply be continuing to repeatedly incorrect information and opinion.
there is no evidence that water boarding has ever been used to get actionable intelligence or save lives. it has never worked.
it works sometimes. not all the time, but sometimes
how many times do you need to hear this? torture DOES NOT WORK! you keep repeating that it does over, and over and it is a lie every single time. there is tons of research proving this so why do you keep repeating your lies?
I should be specific here. Waterboarding should not be used in the interagation room on suspicion the suspect knows something, but only when it is absolute certain the proven guilty terrorist knows something that can save lives.
tourture doesn't always work, but it works sometimes. doing nothing never works. giving the enemy money also never works, but works for the enemy.
I'm all for trying to stop terrorists attacks without using tourture but reality is reality.
which is better-
best case scenario- tortured terrorist tells us info that stops a terrorist attack and saves American lives.
worst case scenario- terrorist tells is false info, wastes a few FBI agents for an hour, then gets locked up for life.
best- Terrorist doesn't get tortured, no terrorists were planning preventable attacks at the moment.
worst- evil terrorist gets treated well while knowing of the attack going on that results in the deaths of innocent americans.
it's a question of would you rather tourture a guilty terrorist or risk the lives of innocent americans.
So your suggestion is that it is better to do something that we know doesn't work rather than look for a better solution? Torture has been repeatedly and thoroughly shown to not be a reliable method of gathering information, so there has to be another reason you want to inflict suffering on another human being. Could you explain your desire to hurt someone for absolutely no benefit that doesn't make you sound like a monster?
Beyond that, what about falsely a used people? If I claim you are part of ISIS, should you be waterboarded until you provide useful information? That might take a while since I am fairly confident you know nothing about their inner workings or plans. Before you claim that no one will ever be falsely accused, remember that just like our justice system it will be run by people and therefore mistakes happen. Would you be willing to torture an innocent person to determine if they might know something? If yes, how exactly do you think you have any moral high ground?
so if "tourture" is an failed method, what way will you choose to modivate the terrorists into helping you? the money? seems that way with the US paying iran for the hostages to be released.
Reagan got Iran to release hostages using fear. when he was swarn into office iran released our hostages out of fear.
it is better to give our enimies fear then nothing and nothing then money.
bring back waterboarding? yeah, enjoy the torture techniques isis are gona use on captured soldiers. and theyre a lot more creative.
what is this link supposed to show me?
how many times do we need to explain this to you? torture doesn't work. lots of research has been done. it is not an effective way to gather information.
so if it doesn't work and violates the basic principles of the Constitution then why would you want to use it?
there are 3 ways to motivate people: food, fear, and money.
If there is important information and we need to get it out of a known terrorist, why shouldn't we do it? Do not say the terrorist has rights because as soon as you are apart of an organization as ISIS and plot to kill Americans, your rights should be gone.